StarGateWars Forums

HE's been drinking again...

Wolf359 wrote:When will people realise it is not high caps or empires that have 'ruined' the game.

Firstly, you can never, ever introduce something that will stop empires - so why even bother discussing it?

Second - caps is not the problem - a certain number of updates were, specifically:

1 - Making UU unkillable
2 - Raid
3 - The Market - or more specifically the artificially produced bottomless pit of AT.

Now these things on their own are not the cause - but put 2 or all of them together and we can easily see how we have arrived at the situation we have today.

The ONLY way to rectify the situation, in my opinion is to remove artificially produced AT from the in-game market and the only AT in the game should be that produced by the players. And, possibly, make UU/miners killable again. This would make AT a truly valuable commodity (which it should be) and force players to think about how to use them, and consider the consequences of how they use them - at the moment limitless AT are taken for granted - and that is the root cause of the state of the game - whether you like it or not.

Raid itself is good - but coupled with the limitless AT and unkillable UU has destroyed the game, by making it no longer a game, but simply who is willing to raid the most.

However, too many people who have invested too much real money in the game - or make too much real money from the game - will always complain about this. BUT, it is the ONLY way to rectify the situation - other 'updates' - i.e. caps etc, have been introduced to try and rectify th efolly of these previous updates - and I think we all know that the rectifications have failed.

Will it ever happen - I doubt it - for the reason above, and also that too many people like things the way they are in the game - EASY!

Killing uu? No way! The unkill uu update is one of best who came in!
It was ok in beginning when our armies were incredibly small but now we can't or three quarters of game would leave if they learnt their army size could go boom to nothing in a single massing (people with over 10mil armies wouldn't like at all to loose so much so easily, like I do)
The new cap is a problem..
Agreed for unlimited ATs supply needs to go.

Brdavs wrote:Make way for the devils advocate!

It`s in the nature of every game that it evolves or dies...
Even if no updates were ever implemented by admin eventually (through varrying levels of commitment) it would become "unballanced"... And such imbalance would have been even more radical once compounded with the abbility to raze accounts completly... Not to mention it getting "stale" after a while... Case in point was ascended, more or less everything touted here as "it should have been main" was up there, and that turned out great didn`t it? You had to come up with updates to force ppl to play lol... Not only did main do good for itself it kept ascended alive hehe...
So main requires "less skill" etc. etc. etc. Thats your subjective perception... and even if, so whats the huge disaster? The simpler it gets the broader audience it has a chance of reaching...
The game is dying? We`re all dying since the moment we`re born. The game would have died a lot sooner had there been no changes implemented... Sure not all updates have been optimal but leaving it in its original state would imho allready have spelled its end... Its not (only) about the veterans loosing interest, it`s (more) about the game attracting ever new players.
Now, howmany new players ascended attracted (ralativly speaking: active players without "alliance immunity") before you put a gun at heads to take it up I ask you? What makes you think it would have been any different with main?

I wager that under the line these updates you hate so much got more ppl involved with the game (directly and indirectly) thus keeping it alive, than they turned away the "old guard"...

Agreed 100%

geisha wrote:HE's been drinking again...

Bah it's relative lost. And it is stress that random genernated attacks turns needs to go. Come to think of it, the Attack turn CAP needs to be 100k. instead too. ( i like my turns)

Note that somepeople would be losing a LOT. ( for myself i have around 300tril invested in my account which means i would end up having 30 tril naq, and 15mil uu. So it's a fair reduction

the point to be stressed is relative loss when you look at this. dont shoot the idea down till its been throughly discussed.

numbers are too big as it is, its basically taking a few 0's off the server (in size and naq) and removing a few of the updates that havent had a long term benefiting effect

CaPrIcA jb wrote:despite id like for mojo rising to be wrong. but he isnt... the cap update.. only makes it even harder for the normal to small players get higher. all the super huge people... are buying up all the uu and AT making the prices even worse then before. and if you notice. all the players that make this game intresting are leaving. just notice the insane amount of people quiting and selling accounts.

the only update so far that actually made the
game better was the ascencion one. other then that... its getting worse and worse. every time i login to msn or ingame. i se more people quiting because the game is going to stuff.

what ways do you guys think we could make this game better? fix some of the crap thats been done. i enjoy this to much for me to quit. but there isnt anything to make other players want to stay....


Bez -=- Am I allowed to have fun yet? -=- says:
but, do i really want to spend like $5-15k for an account in a dying game?
Caprica is BUYING UU! says:
i wouldnt
Bez -=- Am I allowed to have fun yet? -=- says:
which, it is doing
Caprica is BUYING UU! says:
yep it is..

i come in this game 6 moths ago
i my point of view i must congrat jason for everything he do
ascend update was a great one and the new one i think is better one to bring back to live big players
and about quiting i think time is killing the game not the updates
jason can do alot more updates to not let people to leave this game
but no way reset or cut 0 from accounts will bring game to more players

bebitza wrote:

CaPrIcA jb wrote:despite id like for mojo rising to be wrong. but he isnt... the cap update.. only makes it even harder for the normal to small players get higher. all the super huge people... are buying up all the uu and AT making the prices even worse then before. and if you notice. all the players that make this game intresting are leaving. just notice the insane amount of people quiting and selling accounts.

the only update so far that actually made the
game better was the ascencion one. other then that... its getting worse and worse. every time i login to msn or ingame. i se more people quiting because the game is going to stuff.

what ways do you guys think we could make this game better? fix some of the crap thats been done. i enjoy this to much for me to quit. but there isnt anything to make other players want to stay....


Bez -=- Am I allowed to have fun yet? -=- says:
but, do i really want to spend like $5-15k for an account in a dying game?
Caprica is BUYING UU! says:
i wouldnt
Bez -=- Am I allowed to have fun yet? -=- says:
which, it is doing
Caprica is BUYING UU! says:
yep it is..

i come in this game 6 moths ago
i my point of view i must congrat jason for everything he do
ascend update was a great one and the new one i think is better one to bring back to live big players
and about quiting i think time is killing the game not the updates
jason can do alot more updates to not let people to leave this game
but no way reset or cut 0 from accounts will bring game to more players

Yep not everyone wishes to start again all what they achieved. Updates, when they are good, can do great effects in gameplay!

if u really want to know y the reason is its dying is because whats now happening on main is happening on ascension, everyone doesnt matter how long u have been playing r becoming almost the same size, and yes thats happening on main, the larger u get the more that dies, to a point were u cant keep up the growth of what is diying so in affect the growth will go to 0 and thats when everyone will become the same, but u also have the other problem as u r getting bigger your u,p on both ascension and main is going down but u then have the ppl that r not having units dying at a much higher growth rate so they can just attack and attack to bring your size down, but yes that will mean the bigger players u,p will then become bigger again but then again its staright back to the same thing again

and noone wants to play something were u cant grow thats y u r cing lots of ppl trying to sell up more every day

now on ascension my u,p has gone down to

Note: When your total realm size exceeds 2 billion planets, your rate of growth slows...
You are currently growing at 49.25 percent of full capacity...This affects just new planet finds, not current planets.

and doesnt matter how much i put on chrisma i cant stop my u,p going down because infact the bigger i grow the faster it goes down so no point doing chrisma

and the same thing is happening on main, im only 30 mil over the plauge on main and my u,p on that has gone down to almost 50% but the same problem is happening there the bigger i get the quicker the % goes down so just doing more u,p means i will get to 0% quicker, thats thats y u r seening ppl leave because noone likes caps

btw if anyone wants to buy my account make me an offer, because guess what my account is up for sale aswell

I agree with Brdavs analysis that the games has to change or it will die anyway.

Another thing that is killing this game though, is the fact that people started complaining about how small players can't catch up or they don't benefit right away from any update.

2 yrs ago, the admin implemented Motherships. They cost 450mil naq, at the time, that was A LOT of naq, but you know what, most people didn't care. Everyone was just over joyed with the fact they could get a MS and the fact you could individually name your own personal MS was just Gold. And for next months or so, Mother ships were a chief way for players to recruit new officers by promising them a MS. Sure there were maybe a few complainers, but nobody care about them.

If the admin tried to implement that today, 90% of all he would get would be people complaining about how they couldn't afford it, or the big player builds a better one...blah blah blah.

Even I have fallen victim to this mentality a little, where good updates for the game, are shot down because they benefit big players more.

Well guess what, EVERYTHING BENEFITS BIG PLAYERS MORE....
Big players can build bigger UPS,
Big players can build higher strikes, defenses, coverts, etc
Bigger players could do bigger ascensions
Even the CAPS tend to benefit all but the largest players in some way.

Whats next? We removing parts of the game piece by piece because they benefit bigger players more?

Do you think twice about whether to spend the naq to train a few hundred Super Soldiers? I remember the times when I would. Back when 89,000 naq for a soldier was expensive, and training a bunch was not taken likely, especially at the risk of them being massed. Unless you were a very big player, you thought about those things. Now, small, big, you probably don't think more beyond, do I want the stat increase, or do I want these as miners, and probably doing so in quantities of 10k's, not mere hundreds.

Chief point here is, just because it mostly benefits big players now, it maybe in common use by even the smallest of players eventually. Look at technologies, nobody even thinks about the cost to buy those anymore...unless you built your UP really high and then decided you wanted merc techs...

Having updates that make the game more fun, is more important than "does it only benefit big players?" I'm all for updates that do help small a little more than big, but just because it only benefits big players is no reason to shoot down a good idea. Besides, as shown with MotherShips, if something is too far out of reach at first for small players, big players will start using them to recruit officers, or as rewards to loyal officers.

TC

Apophis ™ wrote:Killing uu? No way! The unkill uu update is one of best who came in!
It was ok in beginning when our armies were incredibly small but now we can't or three quarters of game would leave if they learnt their army size could go boom to nothing in a single massing (people with over 10mil armies wouldn't like at all to loose so much so easily, like I do)
The new cap is a problem..
Agreed for unlimited ATs supply needs to go.

You missed the point! The unkillable uu update in itself was not actually too much of a problem - but when raid and then limitless AT was brought in it became a big problem. However - the uu should NEVER have been made unkillable in the first place - because as soon as it was made that way, then the big money players really knew that they could buy instead of play their way to the top.

Besides, if the unkillable UU update had not been implemented, and we did not have limitless AT available, then peoples armies WOULD NOT be able to go 'boom to nothing in a single massing' - because the AT would not be available to do it! And even if an individual did amass enough AT to do it to somebody, because of the nature of the game, they would have to consider it very carefully, because the consequences could, and probably would, be dire.

You need to look beyond analysing each of the individual causes separately.

It would be more than possible to make UU killable again, reduce everyone to a certain amount of AT (with appropriate compensation with naq), exponentially rescale everyone's armies to create not too much of a gap (again with compensation) and to start afresh without having to reset and without people losing their position. That way the top stay at the top, the guys in the middle stay in the middle, and the guys at the bottom stay at the bottom - and everyone rises or falls due to their ability to actually play. The only hurdle would be the moaners who had got themselves to the top without actually playing the game, knowing that they just can't raid themselves to a big army anymore or mass an entire alliance because someone dared attack them once!

It could easily be done - but it won't be because people like it easy - as it is now - and they look out for the good of themselves, rather than the good of the game - which is the way it has mostly been when suggesting updates or wanting something changed.

reborn wrote:if u really want to know y the reason is its dying is because whats now happening on main is happening on ascension, everyone doesnt matter how long u have been playing r becoming almost the same size, and yes thats happening on main

Bang On! And what are the reasons for this?......

1 - unkillable UU
2 - raid
3 - limitless AT
4 - caps

In theory, wouldn't killable UU be balanced out by a limit on ATs?

Phoenix of Terra wrote:In theory, wouldn't killable UU be balanced out by a limit on ATs?

more importantly, why would you kill UU when you could using the same turns possibly raid them to your own army instead?

unless, by killable UU, Wolf 359 is also including miners?

Yeah, I think that was the point. The UU we know now only exists because of miners. A lot of other games that follow this game format usually don't have miners, just a bunch of UU that supplies money (or sometimes rushes to the defense if there aren't enought defenders)

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Unless they got massed by the server...

Im not one for long posts but here goes...

The removal of the bottomless pit of AT would be good because ATs would become a rarer comodity. and i for one would like if alliances mates would need to work together and use their turns to combat a person/alliance. real team work in warfare.

also, hits by individual hits would have to be considered more if they knew they didnt have a infinate supply of AT available by going to the black market.

wars would really be a asset killer in that sence. couple that with uu being killable in fair amounts, again requring either an indivdual much time to wear down a person or a alliance wide initiative on someone. alliance wars would have the real incentive to cripple the enemy long term.

but, we have to remember why this market update came around in the first place. and that was one person or a group of people using their size advantage to tie up the AT of the game by offering huge prices

so, if the market was removed a cap on ATs in your realm would need to be applied as well. Say in a week you can you twice the maximum your account creates per week. (idea from the top of my head, but given how ascended survives on turn based turns alone, i think main can too)

this will drive down raiding growth, but farmers would be ok which would ensure the game isnt stale. and raid would still be a viable option on very good hits or if you do not farm much at the weekend for example using up your AT quota.

(by the way i am just refreshing previous suggestions mentioned earlier in the thread. only a little is from my mind)

But then we have the problem of army sizes. Big vs. Small. This will always be a issue. No matter what you do, what game you play. But i have to say if you have been playing this game ages, you deserve to be ahead of others who havent played as long. If you put in the time and the commitment, you deserve something back.

Now, the controversial point. Whether High Empty likes himself in the morning for this statement or not doesnt matter, because more importantly he has come up with what i see as a good suggestion. And there have been MANY in this thread which can be linked together to give this game rebirth and fresh life.

High Empty said

Well i'm going to hate myself in the morning.

Anyways. If you guys want to give it another go their are a few fixes.
Frist, Add the sum of all Naq spent on an account and refund it. Basicly reseting all account. For both Ascension and Main. In Ascension It would be lifeforce as well as dmu, the two but apart. In main the planets would be refunded everything spend on them, weapons would be refunded everything spent on them aswell. MS aswell. SO basicly you have accounts with lots of NAQ. UU shouldn't need to be touched.

Now comes the fun part. ( everyone has EVERYTHING naq, dmu, lifeforce based in their accounts reset)
Now we take 1/10th of that and just remove it.

Then give everyone 10 days ppt.

Attack turns on the market get removed, So that there is no more generation of random turns.
The Raid limit and the buying UU limit get put back down, expect they are BOTH the same limit.

Planets get an option to make themselves duals, with an investment of 4 tril., Triples at 16 tril, and quads at 32 tril, and GoD planets at 64 tril.


Now what this leaves you with is the highest army being 27.5mil.
Note, anyone who doesn't log into play within 10 days of the ppts, their naq is spend automaticly on UP.

Theres a radical, completely unfair reset, but it should bring back life to the game.
Well i'm going to hate myself in the morning.

Anyways. If you guys want to give it another go their are a few fixes.
Frist, Add the sum of all Naq spent on an account and refund it. Basicly reseting all account. For both Ascension and Main. In Ascension It would be lifeforce as well as dmu, the two but apart. In main the planets would be refunded everything spend on them, weapons would be refunded everything spent on them aswell. MS aswell. SO basicly you have accounts with lots of NAQ. UU shouldn't need to be touched.

Now comes the fun part. ( everyone has EVERYTHING naq, dmu, lifeforce based in their accounts reset)
Now we take 1/10th of that and just remove it.

Then give everyone 10 days ppt.

Attack turns on the market get removed, So that there is no more generation of random turns.
The Raid limit and the buying UU limit get put back down, expect they are BOTH the same limit.

Planets get an option to make themselves duals, with an investment of 4 tril., Triples at 16 tril, and quads at 32 tril, and GoD planets at 64 tril.


Now what this leaves you with is the highest army being 27.5mil.
Note, anyone who doesn't log into play within 10 days of the ppts, their naq is spend automaticly on UP.

Theres a radical, completely unfair reset, but it should bring back life to the game.

With sizes and incomes severely reduced the gaps are smaller but the relative advantage is the same. UP's could be reset and we could incorperate another previously said advantage of UP's becoming more expensive more quickly at certain sizes, like on ascension. Or not, thats a point i admit is up in the air. but if everyone was refunded their UPs, that would be a good a time as ever to incorperate a update like that.

Planets, do we need them? I am split on this. Its another catalyst for war and hostility which is good but some view it as a further example as to why this game is failling. Maybe if planets are really wanted everyone has one, like a MS, that they can build up and upgrade all they want. but instead of being takeable they be destroyable. maybe not totally but the benefits they give can be attacked. Orbital assault by a MS giving fleets a reason to exist. but again a further drain on ATs.

Anti Covert is one good update i think, atleast people cant hide all their troops as covert and a way to kill AC units is also good, but personally i dislike the ways its been done. too expensive for the end result unless you have tons of players teaming up on one player. And unless your Dean_S, Gordash or even Eros who all have ways to wind up the masses, i dont think that will happen too often.

Re-reading what i have just written, it sounds almost like a new game. So im going to tie in yet another idea from another thread. Why not test this idea on another server first. Next Quantum wave take current main server data do the above updates and see how it works out. Sometimes i think we need community wide testing of ideas before they come in so we can see the effects things will have. Not insulting those that do test things before release but 1000 people playing is better than 10. And whatever is decided or suggested i think it would be reasonable for it to be trialled in Quantum first, because this would change the landscape of SGW. and hopefully for the better.

But the main point i want to get across is what Wolf359, who has been here a very long time and has my respect for his ideas and summations of problems, highlighted as the main problems

1 - unkillable UU
2 - raid
3 - limitless AT

Those are the main problems, maybe not by themselves but combined they are. But changing 1 or more of them will highlight other potential flaws.
I am not claiming we can make a perfect game because there is only so far a text based game can go but i do think there is a way to give this game a new sence of life. We sorta go back a bit in SGW history with killable uu, limited AT but take a different approach on the update that were put in to improve the game e.g. Planets.

But yea, thats my long rant combining several (in my eyes) good ideas.

Thanks for reading

personally I think main was ok with the plague kicking in at 100 mill. That new update really only makes it boring as everyone is going to end up at the same size.