descension

[GenObiWan]

Wow - I've spent the last few hours reading this thread and while there are many point that I'd like to quote and comment on then THIS post would turn into a book as well. There are many points that I agree with and many others that I feel are not in keeping with the spirit of what the ascended server is about.

In ascended it was stressed that balance was important and that a player with one strong stat couldn't dominate the game. Along these line I feel that the ONLY way descending someone could happen is if a normal attack took place first and wiped out all physical realm defenses. Then after the realm was exposed and raw, ONLY then could a "god battle" occur. And yes I think there should be another attack option added to specifically attack the life force but this option is not allowed until after all physical realm defenses are gone. To make it possible for a player with strong personal abilities to completely bypass the normal defenses and still descend someone would change the entire nature of the game. If this happens then the entire game will turn into a race to see who can build up their personal abilities and it will turn into a joke.

Secondly, it makes sense to remove the last bonus gained on the main server but it is totally illogical to completely destroy someone's main account by losing things that have been suggested here (weapons, UP, etc). I agree that losing your bonuses for a month is too watered down - you should lose permanently whatever the last bonus was that you got. LG+3 should be demoted back to LG+2, incarnate back to messiah, etc along with the % bonus that you gained. If your main account is wiped out then what is the point of even playing main - DD or some other high ranked ascendeds could just find a player's ascended account and descend them effectively destroying the account in main reagardless of the rank of the player in main. Sure wipe out ther ascended account because to even get to the point of a god battle their defenses would be gone anyway. And sure make them lose their last bonus and force them to re-ascend again in main to get it back...but to completely wipe out a main account is effectively going to stop people from ascending for fear of months and years of hard work in main being gone because someone in ascended has a grude.

Now the third and final comment I have is about the 1-on-1 battle vs a mass attack by a multitude of players. I feel that once a "god battle" starts then no other players should be allowed to attack for a period of several days and the player being attacked should not be allowed to attack anyone else either. If multiple players are allowed to engage in a god battle, then the game turns into a contest of who has the most friends and any thought of strategy goes out the window.

Now in closing I have a question - I may have missed this somewhere and I apologize if I did.....but what is the incentive to descend someone other than someone being a jackass and carrying out a grudge? Do you get bonus life force added when you descend someone and if so do you get more of a bonus if you descend a more powerful player? Is there limit to how often you are allowed to descend someone?

[Shooting Star]

But you see, it's not all about balance! None of the enhancements that have been added to the game have been about balance. The quick ascenders got five ascensions done very quickly. All of a sudden, Forum puts in the UU transfer cost to try and stem the flow of quick ascensions by penalizing UU transfers. Unfortunately, the people it was intended to punish weren't ascending any longer and didn't have to worry about it. Who did it screw? Those of us who were doing the slow and steady route to ascension.

And who said anything about permadeath in this game? My suggestion was not permadeath. It was suggesting that descension be something to be feared, not laughed at. Losing one ascension level is not permadeath. And I know of MMORPGs that do permit the going back in experience/level if you screw up enough and I consider those people who didn't play ascension but just ascended to gain power in main as having screwed up a LOT. Again, the term is DESCENSION, not SUPPRESSION. Losing your ascended bonuses for one month is suppression. You are not being Descended anywhere. Losing one level of ascended status on main when you get descended fits the definition much better. How come no one was complaining when they were getting their bonuses for ascending but now that there is a possibility that they can be taken away (which was always the case), everyone is up in arms about it? If you didn't want to partake in the risks of ascension, you had the choice. Everyone of you in ascension made that choice voluntarily; it was not thrust upon you. You did not have to click the button. And, you can still get out of ascension on your own terms if you want. No one is stopping you. If you don't want to be up here, you can leave.

Now for those of you who made the choice to ascend in the first place and are choosing to stay now, you have to be prepared to face the consequences of those decisions. Someone asked why any new person would want to ascend? I made a suggestion to give them a three month/three ascension grace period in which they cannot descend or be descended. Here's a suggestion: perhaps you should only be able to descend someone of your number of ascensions - 3 or greater. So if you are a six time ascendee, you could only descend people who have completed three ascensions or more. That way, it allows the new people to decide whether they want to ascend slowly and try to build up slowly or whether they want to risk quick ascending and possibly get descended. There are a number of ways to protect the newer players. Personally I don't think the "big guys" (and as one of the big guys, I think I know what I am talking about) are going to be bothering to descend newbie accounts.

[Shooting Star]

Actually Gen Obi Wan, it isn't all that clear what happens when you get descended or what the victor gets out of it. We are still waiting for Forum to give us an idea of how this is all going to work. With this watered down version, there better be some benefit to the victor or else it's going to be really lame.

[Sitruk]

Yea but if there is a benifit to the winner~and if its even remotly good of a benfit~ then you better get ready for the higher ups to start a clean sweep from the last page forward.

[geisha]

I think new players on the ascended server who have just ascended the first time, should be protected for a while so they can't get descended right away. 1 month protection from descending (descending only that is, not regular attacks) would be fair. Otherwise some guys will never make it anywhere.

[~Phoenix~]

But you see, it's not all about balance! None of the enhancements that have been added to the game have been about balance. The quick ascenders got five ascensions done very quickly. All of a sudden, Forum puts in the UU transfer cost to try and stem the flow of quick ascensions by penalizing UU transfers. Unfortunately, the people it was intended to punish weren't ascending any longer and didn't have to worry about it. Who did it screw? Those of us who were doing the slow and steady route to ascension.

And who said anything about permadeath in this game? My suggestion was not permadeath. It was suggesting that descension be something to be feared, not laughed at. Losing one ascension level is not permadeath. And I know of MMORPGs that do permit the going back in experience/level if you screw up enough and I consider those people who didn't play ascension but just ascended to gain power in main as having screwed up a LOT. Again, the term is DESCENSION, not SUPPRESSION. Losing your ascended bonuses for one month is suppression. You are not being Descended anywhere. Losing one level of ascended status on main when you get descended fits the definition much better. How come no one was complaining when they were getting their bonuses for ascending but now that there is a possibility that they can be taken away (which was always the case), everyone is up in arms about it? If you didn't want to partake in the risks of ascension, you had the choice. Everyone of you in ascension made that choice voluntarily; it was not thrust upon you. You did not have to click the button. And, you can still get out of ascension on your own terms if you want. No one is stopping you. If you don't want to be up here, you can leave.

Now for those of you who made the choice to ascend in the first place and are choosing to stay now, you have to be prepared to face the consequences of those decisions. Someone asked why any new person would want to ascend? I made a suggestion to give them a three month/three ascension grace period in which they cannot descend or be descended. Here's a suggestion: perhaps you should only be able to descend someone of your number of ascensions - 3 or greater. So if you are a six time ascendee, you could only descend people who have completed three ascensions or more. That way, it allows the new people to decide whether they want to ascend slowly and try to build up slowly or whether they want to risk quick ascending and possibly get descended. There are a number of ways to protect the newer players. Personally I don't think the "big guys" (and as one of the big guys, I think I know what I am talking about) are going to be bothering to descend newbie accounts.

When has anything ever been what it should?

My MS made a planet travel at 1mil times the speed of light into my galaxy in 1second.

I sent 1million spies into a guy's base when he only had 40k uu.

Lots of silly examples, dont make excuses aboutt he name.

And yes the other guy is right.. it encourages people NOT to ascend in the first place.. you all jsut want everything to go your way, admin's idea is the best, its gunna happen, you've all whined for 20 pages now can you just accept it?

[Spoon]

In fairness to the new people on ascension, I think there should be a two month/three ascension/which ever comes first grace period where you cannot descend/be descended. Give them time to make something of themselves.

New players should be given a period like this to get settled.

As for not knowing about deascension, you might not have known about it as soon as you ascended however it was known about long before, for instance this topic. So as you can see within the first month deascension was known about, though it was probably obvious it would happen as the deascend button was on your realm page straight after you first ascended.

[AI_]

how would it not encourage ppl to ascend if they get a 3 month grace period? seriously that is a lot of time to build up your account. and shooting star is right, the proposed punishment does not fit the description descension at all. its temporary. when daniel was descended he lost EVERYTHING even his close the point is that is no wher near everything. yes it does damage, but not to the point where any one would descend somone with the resources it will take.

i would not descend somone if its only 30 days punishment. if it takes as many turns as they say it will, its not worth it.

[Spoon]

you all jsut want everything to go your way, admin's idea is the best, its gunna happen,

As do you, hence all your posts in this topic which have done nothing but complain about the people who think this idea is to soft. The only reason you are doing this is because that you have clearly made too many enemies in ascension and dont want to be deascended for the rest of time.

you've all whined for 20 pages now can you just accept it?

And you havent just whined for the past 20 pages about the fact most people feel this idea doesnt go far enough, and rather than try to think of ideas of your own you have just complained about other peoples ideas rather than thinking of any of your own

[Hensenshi]

I have been drawn out of retirement for a few short moments to read over this thread, and respond. I was a top level player when I played ascension. Since I no longer play, I can assure you that I will take no benifit from any decision made about descension. But what I can assure you is that I speak of what I wish had happened when I was playing. I would like to point out some things, and all based upon Mojo Rising's posts as we agreed on so many issues about ascension.

But I was also wise and saw that quick ascending with minimum requirements five or six times was not the way to go. I paced myself, sacrificing some power in main initially to build my realm in ascension by doing increasingly massive ascensions and also giving myself time between ascensions to let my realm build up on its own.

Mojo, I have to call you down here. You did not ascend slowly. You quick ascended just like those who you are calling down. Infact, I believe you were one of the first to do it. Albet, you timed it just right so you could take massive ammounts of power from it. Your only difference from the quick ascenders is you did it at the right time, and you followed them up with a MASSIVE ascension for your 6th.

In defense of my position on why I think that there should be a permanent loss of one level of ascension when you get descended, if there is no permanent loss, then it makes those of who played both servers equally and as they were intended look like jackasses. I took a lot of crap and a lot of beatings from some of the quick ascendees while I was amassing big ascensions and garnering my power slowly but surely in ascension. Now that I am light years ahead of 99% of the server, you are going to tell me that all my hard work went for naught and that descendees keep their accounts intact and get the ascended equivalent of a slap on the wrist for not playing ascension? I am sorry but that does not cut it. "Sorry Mojo but you played ascension too well so we are going to have to dumb it down for the commonfolk." I suffered through TOO many enhancements that benefitted the quick ascendees because, through my many discussions with Admin about descension, I was SOOOOO looking forward to what I thought descension was GOING to be. What you see here is a RADICAL departure from what was discussed previously.

I had an idea this is how descension would work, BECAUSE of how you and Gen are. When I was playing, I'm sure many would agree I was very powerful. But even with how strong I was(lightyears ahead of 90% of the server), I couldn't even begin to think of trying to hurt GenLucky or Mojo Rising. I don't know about now, but I know at one point GenLucky had a defense that was so far above the #1 strike, he was unmassable. He was litterly, untouchable. #1 in everything but strike, and his defense was lightyears above the #1 strike. I think things have since balanced a bit more though.

But since I seem to beating my head against a brick wall with this, I am amending my suggestion:

I am now agreeing with the loss of all ascended bonuses in main for one month if you get descended, plus the loss of one level of ascension after the one month is up. You still get to keep all of your weapons (if you are a Prior, you get the equivalent amount of the equivalent non-ascended weapons), all your troops, your MS, and all technologies appropriate for an ascended being of your level (so some ascended technologies will lose a level). I think that this is the best compromise of all the positions out there. And I also think that there should be a loss in the ascension server. I think that the victor of the descension battle should get 1-2% of the worshipping planets of the loser. Not only would this make descension more of a lose-lose proposition for the loser (which it should be to live up to the high-risk/high-reward server that it was supposed to be), but it would also offer a measure of protection to the lower players from the higher players. If players know that they are going to get some planets from the other player if they win, they may decide that it is only worth it to try to descend players with a goodly number of planets, thus protecting the new ascendees.

I hate to see an active mind on how ascension should work change his mind. Mojo, don't bend to the will of the masses.

I resent the implication that "Top players have used vacation mode as a tactical option". I consider myself a top player and I have NEVER used vacation mode, as a tactical option or for any other reason. And believe me, if you ask Forum, he will tell you that I have been pushing for the linking of vacation mode in main and ascension for almost as long as the ascension server has been opened.

My suggestions:

1.) Descension should occur one of two ways:
a.)God Quest: you seek out the ascended self person and decide if you want to engage them in single 1 v. 1 combat. If you decide to, based on what you see, you engage each other until one or the other is reduced to 0 LF.
b.) Total defense destruction: You batter down their physical realm defense and seek them out physically (if you wish) then the two ascended beings engage each other.

2.) Descension should be more like it was presented to us in earlier discussions: you lose 1 ascended level, and you are a shell account again, naked, lying in a cornfield. I don't think that descension should be watered down simply because people with a lack of foresight decided they were going to use ascension in a manner for which it was not designed.

3.) Vacation mode in ascension and main linked somehow. I prefer vacation in one, vacation in the other. And, if you have attacked in either server in the past five days, you are SOL. You cannot go on vacation mode. But if they at least link it where, if you are on vacation mode in ascension, you lose your ascended bonuses in main, that would be acceptable.

4.) Make the voluntary descension less traumatic than an involuntary one. If you voluntarily descend, you do not end up naked in a cornfield. You keep all super-soldiers, covert/anti-covert operatives, UP, Naquadah, and UU/miners/Lifers, but you lose the technologies and weapons (as some of those are of ascended origin) and you get to choose the non-ascended race you wish to be. But if you choose to ascend at a later date, you will have to pay the ascension costs for whichever ascension this will be for you. Say, if you ascended twice and then decided that it would be better for you not to be ascended, you descend back down to a non-ascended status. If you decided to ascend again, you would pay third ascension costs. By doing this, you give all the players who DON'T play ascension a chance to keep their main accounts somewhat intact and bow out of the server gracefully.

5.) Do NOT let personal ascended stats affect the physical realm. Otherwise, there is no need to buy a physical realm attack score as you could attack someone without losing any planets with your personal attack.

Just my two cents' worth.

Mojo I have to agree with you here. This is EXACTLY how descension should happen.

[Munchy]

how would it not encourage ppl to ascend if they get a 3 month grace period? seriously that is a lot of time to build up your account. and shooting star is right, the proposed punishment does not fit the description descension at all. its temporary. when daniel was descended he lost EVERYTHING even his close the point is that is no wher near everything. yes it does damage, but not to the point where any one would descend somone with the resources it will take.

i would not descend somone if its only 30 days punishment. if it takes as many turns as they say it will, its not worth it.

Giving a 3 month 'grace period' is good and all..but even with that there are problems. The ascended server is not like the others in that it is not possible to have unlimited growth there, because there isn't an existing market.

So in esence in the 3 months that newly ascended person may have, all others have had that same 3 months to grow...and who would grow faster in those 3 months do you think, the new guy or the established one? Ofcourse it would be the established one.

As a new person you can work their account all they want...but because growth in ascention is only possible through time they still won't stand a chance when their 3 months are up.

And once someone has been decended once chances are as soon as they can be decended again the other person will do it. And how exactly is the person who is being decended supposed to catch up at that point? Their main account would continue to get worse and worse and their future ascentions if they had any planned would become costlier.

And 30 days of someone not having any ascended bonuses is a pretty big set-back, and should be a good enough reason to decend someone...

And it has been established that comparisons to the show are a bad idea. If I remember correctly when Anubis was 'taken care of' both he and the person attacking him were killed, but I don't think anyone is asking for something like that just because it is in the show...

[AI_]

how would it not encourage ppl to ascend if they get a 3 month grace period? seriously that is a lot of time to build up your account. and shooting star is right, the proposed punishment does not fit the description descension at all. its temporary. when daniel was descended he lost EVERYTHING even his close the point is that is no wher near everything. yes it does damage, but not to the point where any one would descend somone with the resources it will take.

i would not descend somone if its only 30 days punishment. if it takes as many turns as they say it will, its not worth it.

Giving a 3 month 'grace period' is good and all..but even with that there are problems. The ascended server is not like the others in that it is not possible to have unlimited growth there, because there isn't an existing market.

So in esence in the 3 months that newly ascended person may have, all others have had that same 3 months to grow...and who would grow faster in those 3 months do you think, the new guy or the established one? Ofcourse it would be the established one.

As a new person you can work their account all they want...but because growth in ascention is only possible through time they still won't stand a chance when their 3 months are up.

And once someone has been decended once chances are as soon as they can be decended again the other person will do it. And how exactly is the person who is being decended supposed to catch up at that point? Their main account would continue to get worse and worse and their future ascentions if they had any planned would become costlier.

And 30 days of someone not having any ascended bonuses is a pretty big set-back, and should be a good enough reason to decend someone...

And it has been established that comparisons to the show are a bad idea. If I remember correctly when Anubis was 'taken care of' both he and the person attacking him were killed, but I don't think anyone is asking for something like that just because it is in the show...

i get what u mean by saying that they wont stand a chance even after 3 months but i have two responses to that

1. Descending will be hard. so i dont think that there will be a whole lot of priors with enemies commin out ther arse

2. Ofcourse established accounts are going to do better. its no different if u started an account on main now, or on chaos. you dont have a whole lot of a chance to catch up to the very top players, but u can still get good. also there arent a whole lot of active players on ascended so it wont be hard to get ahead of the majority of them

[~Phoenix~]

you all jsut want everything to go your way, admin's idea is the best, its gunna happen,

As do you, hence all your posts in this topic which have done nothing but complain about the people who think this idea is to soft. The only reason you are doing this is because that you have clearly made too many enemies in ascension and dont want to be deascended for the rest of time.

Why must I have a reason to want the update the way admin suggested it.. if its as hard as admin is saying to descend then im pretty safe for the moment..

you've all whined for 20 pages now can you just accept it?

And you havent just whined for the past 20 pages about the fact most people feel this idea doesnt go far enough, and rather than try to think of ideas of your own you have just complained about other peoples ideas rather than thinking of any of your own

Really? You read all my posts? Woa..

Why should I think of my own if I think admin's original is teh best so far? What im trying to knock into people's head's is that 1month with no bonuses is alot worse than losing 1 ascension level per go.. it would of been ok a few months ago but admin left it too long and because of that.. the main account has been built up not to ascend again.. IE high up, days of saving for coverts.. things that people should not be made to part with, just to get their ascended titles back....

And btw, you just made a post solely whining about me..

[Robe]

Ascension was first asdvertised and promoted as a one on one game, free of Alliances. All battles must be one on one. Daniel didnt ascend with SG1!

Main server is for alliances, not ascended.

I also agree with replijake and many others, that a person who does not actively play their ascended account should not be able to hide here on permanent vacation.

Good job forum. I like your proposal.

[Spoon]

And btw, you just made a post solely whining about me..

I know, what can I say I got fed up after spend ages reading through the whole post and had to let out some frustration somewhere