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Re: It'll never happen

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:26 am
by Apadamek
The Deity wrote:So yes... your F-22 Raptor is in good hands but alas it does not provide "Air Superiority" as it was superseded by the F-35 Lightning II which comes in 3 distinct varieties. So the Raptor is obsolete but sure, the US have now got the F-35... Wait...! A problem!

What problem you ask? Well perhaps we should reveal the F-35's other name, the "Joint Strike Fighter", which is being developed and produced "Jointly" by multiple countries. You can't really have "Air Superiority" when the people you're fighting against have it as well. These countries include the UK, Italy, Israel, Canada, Netherlands, Australia and Turkey.




The F-35 isn't in production it will be in 2011, while the raptor is in full production. The F-35 is in the US in a US military base, we can detect it and we know its weaknesses. The EU or any other country for that matter, cannot even detect a Raptor.

Re: It'll never happen

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:14 am
by MGZ
Phoenix of Terra wrote:
The Deity wrote:But meh, who knows for certain. But if you asked me, my money would be on Europe. I mean the US still hasn't finished what they started in Afghanistan or Iraq, what possible bloody hope do they have of going against the whole European Union?

Because this would be a conventional war and not a guerilla one? Napolean was pretty successful, but he didn't do so hot when it came to pacifying Spain.


ditto.

Re: It'll never happen

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:11 pm
by Apadamek
The Deity wrote:And better yet, to cut costs they have moved their manufacturing to Alabama but alas the literacy rate there is so low that they have spent millions converting every single workshop manual into picture-books so their cheap workforce can actually understand them.



if you actually mean that, your more moronic then a mentally deficient sloth.
if its a joke, its about as funny as a dead cat.

Re: It'll never happen

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:28 pm
by The Deity
Phoenix of Terra wrote:
The Deity wrote:But meh, who knows for certain. But if you asked me, my money would be on Europe. I mean the US still hasn't finished what they started in Afghanistan or Iraq, what possible bloody hope do they have of going against the whole European Union?

Because this would be a conventional war and not a guerilla one? Napolean was pretty successful, but he didn't do so hot when it came to pacifying Spain.


You believe it would be conventional? When Germany first came west, much of what it was met with was guerrilla warfare. What makes you think when faced with an American invasion, that the countries of the EU will place all their pieces on an open chessboard? Strike and retreat tactics work and they work well. And there is a lot of varied terrain all over the attack zones so I'd expected to see a lot of assaulting and then merging into the background.

APADAMEK! wrote:
The Deity wrote:So yes... your F-22 Raptor is in good hands but alas it does not provide "Air Superiority" as it was superseded by the F-35 Lightning II which comes in 3 distinct varieties. So the Raptor is obsolete but sure, the US have now got the F-35... Wait...! A problem!

What problem you ask? Well perhaps we should reveal the F-35's other name, the "Joint Strike Fighter", which is being developed and produced "Jointly" by multiple countries. You can't really have "Air Superiority" when the people you're fighting against have it as well. These countries include the UK, Italy, Israel, Canada, Netherlands, Australia and Turkey.




The F-35 isn't in production it will be in 2011, while the raptor is in full production. The F-35 is in the US in a US military base, we can detect it and we know its weaknesses. The EU or any other country for that matter, cannot even detect a Raptor.


The F-35 is a multi-purpose fighter for the sole reason of versatility. That's the reason SDD was awarded to it instead of the Raptor. And the F-35 is elsewhere other then a US base, it's already in production elsewhere. And everyone knows it's weaknesses, as several countries helped develop it. And you don't think other countries have researched the Raptor? With all the hype is has been getting? Please, if they can get one on for a movie, believe you me, it's detailed specs are already out there.

Jack wrote:
The Deity wrote:So yes... your F-22 Raptor is in good hands but alas it does not provide "Air Superiority" as it was superseded by the F-35 Lightning II which comes in 3 distinct varieties. So the Raptor is obsolete but sure, the US have now got the F-35... Wait...! A problem!

Wow, you've totally invalidated your entire argument right there....


Not to mention your cheap shot at Alabama....



Anyone who has half a brain, and the slightest knowledge of aerial warfare knows that the F-22 is a air superiority plane, while the F-35 is a multirole/attacker. Meaning that in a DF(Dog Fight, you know, when to fighters go at it, trying to kill each other) the F-22 is going to have the edge over the F-35 and then some. The F-35 is not as agile or even as fast as the F-22, the F-22 can outrun and out maneuver the F-35.


The F-35 was designed to be a lightning strike fighter. Meaning it's primary objective is to fly in(AFTER the F-22 as obtained air superiority) strike, and high tail it out.


Yes and if you did you'd realize that the majority of dogfights are now conducted with missiles rather then convention propelled ordinance which lowers the maneuverability importance, but yes the Raptor does have the speed and maneuvering edge on the F-35. Alas for an attack on Europe the F-22's would need a launch platform and these would be prime targets for F-35 strike runs as their specialty is air-to-ground.

So just to clarify, I wasn't referring to do-fight capabilities when I said air superiority, I was referring to the ability to own the skies in all sense and for all purposes.

Oh, and it wasn't a cheap shot at Alabama at all. my friend is American himself and he was the one who told me about the picture-book manuals and he is being forced to move to Alabama to work there training the new employees.

Jack wrote:
The Deity wrote:And as for Russia and China jumping to the aid of the US... You're kidding right? They would welcome a chance to level them. Not only removing a major natural resource black hole but also a rival. The cold war Ruskies would just love it.

Oh and to satisfy this remark....


Assuming America was going to wage war against Europe, I'm fairly sure that we wouldn't be the same "capitalistic" "democratic republic" America we are today, and our relations with Russia would be vastly different. :roll:

Oh and we all know Russians are easily bribed, all we'd have to do is offer them, at the very least, partial rule over Europe, and I'm sure they'd love nothing more to help us.


Well done, you have just removed all the plausibility this topic had. You're saying America wouldn't be the same as it was today? I thought it was supposed to be "What if" just next week? By that reasoning Europe isn't the same, the EU has now gained more countries and they have bowed before a single ruler. All decisions are made instantly by this person's authority.

Why should America be the only one to change? If the current trend is followed then I think Europe would win by default as the USA goes Rome on us.
So I'd say Russia would be more then happy to help Europe and the rest of Asia, particularly China and Korea. After all, there were Russian pilots flying the MiGs and shooting down US Sabers the first Korean conflict.

Re: It'll never happen

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:55 pm
by The Deity
Jack wrote:
The Deity wrote:
Jack wrote:
The Deity wrote:So yes... your F-22 Raptor is in good hands but alas it does not provide "Air Superiority" as it was superseded by the F-35 Lightning II which comes in 3 distinct varieties. So the Raptor is obsolete but sure, the US have now got the F-35... Wait...! A problem!

Wow, you've totally invalidated your entire argument right there....


Not to mention your cheap shot at Alabama....



Anyone who has half a brain, and the slightest knowledge of aerial warfare knows that the F-22 is a air superiority plane, while the F-35 is a multirole/attacker. Meaning that in a DF(Dog Fight, you know, when to fighters go at it, trying to kill each other) the F-22 is going to have the edge over the F-35 and then some. The F-35 is not as agile or even as fast as the F-22, the F-22 can outrun and out maneuver the F-35.


The F-35 was designed to be a lightning strike fighter. Meaning it's primary objective is to fly in(AFTER the F-22 as obtained air superiority) strike, and high tail it out.


Yes and if you did you'd realize that the majority of dogfights are now conducted with missiles rather then convention propelled ordinance which lowers the maneuverability importance, but yes the Raptor does have the speed and maneuvering edge on the F-35. Alas for an attack on Europe the F-22's would need a launch platform and these would be prime targets for F-35 strike runs as their specialty is air-to-ground.

Yes, missiles, which the Raptor has atleast a chance of avoiding.

And the F-35 does not? What? Were they built with an in-ability to avoid missiles? Must be why Lord Bach said they out performed the Raptor... Not to mention that the F-35s cost under half that of the F-22.

But you're right, maneuverability has taken a backseat to invisibility, which also the F-22 1-ups the F-35. There's also the simple fact that the F-22 IS a fighter, so therefore it has more, and better air-to-air capabilities then the F-35.

The F-35 also posses steal capabilities and as for invisibility, when it comes to missile lock, the aircraft is still visible to the eye. Until they put wings on Bonds Vanquish, there are no invisible planes.


The Deity wrote:So just to clarify, I wasn't referring to do-fight capabilities when I said air superiority, I was referring to the ability to own the skies in all sense and for all purposes.

You can't control the skies with attackers :roll:

You have the F-35, we ALSO have the F-35 AND the F-22. Thus if you were to try and send an F-35 detachment to bomb anything, we'd dispatch our F-22's and blow your F-35's hell, on the flip side, if we were to send our F-35's after you, we'd send our F-22's with them, as air support and well, if ya can't see it, ya can't shoot it. The F-22's would hold the skies down, while the F-35's suppressed the ground. We'd have air superiority, you'd be SoL.

Again, the Raptor is still visible and we'd target the F-35's anyway as they'd be the ones causing the damage to land-based targets. But again this is assuming other countries have not already gotten hold of the Raptor. Boeing is still a company after all. And each Raptor can be tracked by it's owner, so with the technology shared, how long would it take to hack transmissions to pinpoint locations?


The Deity wrote:Oh, and it wasn't a cheap shot at Alabama at all. my friend is American himself and he was the one who told me about the picture-book manuals and he is being forced to move to Alabama to work there training the new employees.

Well did you take a second to think that maybe, just MAYBE that the reason for the pictures was not simply because of literacy, or the lack thereof. But because pictures > a thousand words? Ever built a Lego Diety? If you had, then you'd know the value of a picture over any amount of words. :roll:

Of course I have, I love Technic Lego, what you don't seem to understand is that this American friend of mine was the one who described the literacy of Alabama as poor. I'm inclined to side with one of your own when it comes to their impressions of their own people. And I have also worked on cars, boats and stood in on plane/helicopter work and I've seen the manuals. They have pictures already. So to have to convert everything into picture format, even further then it is already in existing workshop manuals doesn't inspire much confidence. Perhaps you should actually do a bit of research into it seeming though I got mine from the horses mouth before you attempt to refute it.


The Deity wrote:
Jack wrote:
The Deity wrote:And as for Russia and China jumping to the aid of the US... You're kidding right? They would welcome a chance to level them. Not only removing a major natural resource black hole but also a rival. The cold war Ruskies would just love it.

Oh and to satisfy this remark....


Assuming America was going to wage war against Europe, I'm fairly sure that we wouldn't be the same "capitalistic" "democratic republic" America we are today, and our relations with Russia would be vastly different. :roll:

Oh and we all know Russians are easily bribed, all we'd have to do is offer them, at the very least, partial rule over Europe, and I'm sure they'd love nothing more to help us.


Well done, you have just removed all the plausibility this topic had. You're saying America wouldn't be the same as it was today? I thought it was supposed to be "What if" just next week? By that reasoning Europe isn't the same, the EU has now gained more countries and they have bowed before a single ruler. All decisions are made instantly by this person's authority.

Why should America be the only one to change? If the current trend is followed then I think Europe would win by default as the USA goes Rome on us.
So I'd say Russia would be more then happy to help Europe and the rest of Asia, particularly China and Korea. After all, there were Russian pilots flying the MiGs and shooting down US Sabers the first Korean conflict.

It was supposed to be as if it was tomorrow. But America, as it is today politically, would never attack the EU. Same goes for the EU, they'd never attack us, as it stands today. Something would have to change, and it'd have to be a major change. But the only thing that'd have to change is the politics of only one nation. Since everyone is content to believe that it'd HAVE to be America to attack the other, then it'd also have to be America to be the one to change.

As for the cold war comments, you serious? The cold war ended over 20 years ago. Must of Russia couldn't careless, they'd care more about money, and power, siding with the rest of the world, would not gain them anymore power then they have today. However siding with the new EVIL America would. :roll:

Are you serious? Siding with Europe wouldn't give them more power... Right. So when the Us is occupied and they can take their share, they would prefer to swallow up a small section of Europe rather then a large sum of America...?
They would stand to gain much much more from taking America. More land, more resources, more people and more tech. China would be the same.

Re: It'll never happen

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:03 pm
by vinny d
An occupation of the United States is Impossible. The United States is one of the largest land masses on this earth. Combine that with a population of 300m, mixed with 200m guns and you get one SoL. We Americans know the terrain. We have tactical advantage on our home turf. For EU to suppress the American people would be impossible. It would take the whole world. Frankly, the whole world wouldn't do it. The whole world wouldn't just go and jump on us. Plus look at britian, they still don't use the Euro. Shows some great unity there. LMAO! You talk of the EU when it is still not a sole unified organization. There is no one leader. At this point in time everything said is purely hypothetical.

Also if you think about the US has an active Military force capable of matching the EU. When war would start a draft would occur in the United States. I believe the United States would prevail in the training of Conscripts. Plus, Canada and Mexico would side with us. Most likely Britain. Also most of south America would be neutral or help us. Venezuela! We can take their oil too! The possibility of the United States being defeated is slim to none. We are a people that are not used to having our freedoms restricted. That is something we Won't take kindly too.

If you think the EU could take the US down, you are mistaken.

Re: It'll never happen

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:54 pm
by Phoenix of Terra
The Deity wrote:You believe it would be conventional? When Germany first came west, much of what it was met with was guerrilla warfare.

I suppose your talking about the French Resistance. Yea, they have quite a rep, but in the end half the country would have still been under German control, the other half under a French puppet government if the Americans hadn't added enough soldiers and supplies to the Allied forces to open the option of a Western Front.

However, it's interesting you bring up the fact that most of the resistance to the Germans was guerilla warfare. That wouldn't have anything to do with the decimation and dissolving of the French army under the German advance? This leads to the conclusion that in order to have successful guerilla operations, an organization will likely be run by military personnel whose conventional army has become nonexistent.

In that case, I wish the EU a top notch guerilla force. Like Jack said, the US that goes to war with the EU would be very different and anyone conducting such operations would most likely be met with even more draconian reactions than the German Werewolfs were. Most likely, it will be a world similar to Farhenheit 451, where Americans view war as a common thing and have very little restraint in their actions.

What makes you think when faced with an American invasion, that the countries of the EU will place all their pieces on an open chessboard? Strike and retreat tactics work and they work well. And there is a lot of varied terrain all over the attack zones so I'd expected to see a lot of assaulting and then merging into the background.


Ok, lets start with the basics, as it seems you have confused regular/conventional/professional soldiers and irregulars/militia/guerillas (at least, it seemed implied with your complete post, which I have broken up to address the historical part first). First, the tactics you describe are in no way only restricted to guerilla tactics. Conventional armies are just as adept to raids and hit-and-run tactics as their irregular counterparts. The real differences between guerillas and regular/conventional soldiers are:

1) Uniforms. Pretty basic, but fighters with uniforms are granted priviledges that those without will never receive. They also can't hide in crowds after trying to gun down occupying forces. They also are fairly certain they can trust other people in the same uniform. Guerillas have no such luxury.

2) C3 (command, control, communication). Conventional forces have much greater coordination because of these. Coordination leads to greater effects with attacks and such. Guerilla attacks have less effect partly because multiple groups don't work together to achieve a common goal (ie, Iraqi insurgents).

3) Heavy weapons. Much easier to find with conventional forces, as a tank is pretty hard to hide.

4) Training. Not everybody who picks up a gun is the next Rambo, though Texans sure do try.

Okay, now that we've differentiated between regular and irregular soldiers, on to the tactics. Strike and retreat tactics are really not all that original. Do you think that doing so, in Europe, would really catch anybody by suprise? Their is no comparison between a war against the armies of Europe and against the insurgencies of Iraq and Afghanistan. The US military is trained for conventional wars such as the former, improvising for the latter's irregular occupations, so which do you think it might be more successful in?

Oh, and our allies in both contries (coalition in Iraq, NATO in Afghanistan) haven't done so great either. Yeah, you can blame us for being in the area, but we aren't the only ones who have dropped the ball.

Re: It'll never happen

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:07 pm
by Phoenix of Terra
Well, I did a little research on the F-22 and the F-35, and, after reading some of the posts in this thread concerning the battle for the air, I'd suggest some of the other posters do as well.

And Diety, Lord Bach was referring to the experimental process, when the F-35 was still the X-35 and outperformend the X-32. The F-22's experimental designation was the YF-22.

Re: It'll never happen

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:22 pm
by The Deity
APADAMEK! wrote:
The Deity wrote:And better yet, to cut costs they have moved their manufacturing to Alabama but alas the literacy rate there is so low that they have spent millions converting every single workshop manual into picture-books so their cheap workforce can actually understand them.



if you actually mean that, your more moronic then a mentally deficient sloth.
if its a joke, its about as funny as a dead cat.


Attempting to offend again Appy? As I said and have argued countless times, I was told by one of the people heading up their production plants in Alabama and he's now living there. So just in case you can't read to well. It was no joke, that's what happened.

Re: It'll never happen

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:06 am
by vinny d
If any country invades they would make us little picture books showing us how to kill the enemy.

Re: It'll never happen

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:06 am
by Mathlord
The Deity wrote:
APADAMEK! wrote:
The Deity wrote:And better yet, to cut costs they have moved their manufacturing to Alabama but alas the literacy rate there is so low that they have spent millions converting every single workshop manual into picture-books so their cheap workforce can actually understand them.



if you actually mean that, your more moronic then a mentally deficient sloth.
if its a joke, its about as funny as a dead cat.


Attempting to offend again Appy? As I said and have argued countless times, I was told by one of the people heading up their production plants in Alabama and he's now living there. So just in case you can't read to well. It was no joke, that's what happened.


You mean people use diagrams in manuals? genius :lol:

To say it's based on the intelligence of the people IS moronic. And no I'm not trying to offend you, just as you aren't trying to offend an entire state of millions of people :lol:

Re: It'll never happen

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:01 pm
by Phoenix of Terra
Is this about Alabama's literacy rate or US vs. Europe (or EU)?

BTW, I'll challenge any Europe supporter to the simulator I mentioned before. It's a TBS, so it would be a low maitenance game.

Re: It'll never happen

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:45 pm
by Almost38
Ground War it would be close all out no one wed nuke each othr

Re: It'll never happen

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:03 pm
by Phoenix of Terra
I think counting the US presence in Germany out without a fight is a possibly curcial understatement. I'm not saying US European Command will win the war by itself, but we do have a sizable force there, including around 225 fighters for all our air superiority junkies.

Nothing to win wars with, but it could become a serious thorn in the foot of EU military operations, even if EU struck first and especially if the US hit first.

And Jack, if in command of the European forces at the time of the attacks, I would hit main airfields first. Control the skies, control the momentum, and the seas will control themselves.

Re: It'll never happen

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:43 am
by vinny d
The EU is made up of different countries. Those different countries speak different languages. The cultures are different. The people are different. The United States on the other hand is one nation, with one language, and one culture.

So we have the upper hand in that respect.