debate on weather sodium fluoride has any benefits

[TheWay]

lol words they are difficult little things aren't they.

[[KMA]Avenger]

lol, been there, done that...

no need to edit posts or anything like that on your part, i do always see peoples points of view, even if i don't agree with that view i do my best to try and understand it, and i can also see how using a general term such as "most people are asleep" can very easily be misinterpreted.

when i use such terminology, its NEVER meant as a criticism as i'm sure there are things that escape me as well.

lol words they are difficult little things aren't they.

its easy to misunderstand someone seeing how we are miles from each other and can only go by the words we post, there's no face in front of you to read...if you follow my meaning?

[Kit-Fox]

Your well researched doctor has so far made the following assumptions/mistakes (take your pick of words for which ever suits the explanation the best)

- that the flouride added to water is the same as raw flourine (they are different)

- that there is no other cause for young girls/women to start puberty & menstration early (there is, in fact in one zoo in the UK some monkeys that supposedly only menstrate once in their life began having yearly and then monthly menstrations, the change? was simply their food (not water, just actual food) was changed from fresh fruit/veg etc to processed food (and dont eve think of blaming flourides for that as theres no way in hell you could know that flourides alone are responsible what with the amount of chemicals processed food is exposed too)

- That standard media control in the age of the internet can restrict the flow of information (it doesnt and would be incredibly hard pressed too)

- That just because mental defects and problems such as ADHD werent recognised in the '50s doesnt mean they werent there. I imagine that doctors back then would have diagnosed those with such problems in the same way that they treated dyslexia, by considering the person as lazy and unwilling to try/learn.

i'm sure more will come up but thats enough to start with

[TheWay]

Now see those are very well thought out arguments. Very impressive super hero like even. I must say before I continue though that what you said about Avenger being well read is very true not only is he well read but very intelligent as well (please don’t make the mistake of believing that my disagreeing with either of you is a lack of respect). It has been enjoyable to read your discussions and I have been impressed.

For anyone reading if possible try to memorize these definitions of fallacies and also go and spend some time researching what a fallacy is that way when presented one you can say “uh ha that’s a fallacy ”

Logical fallacy (False information): That the fluoride added to water is the same as raw fluorine.

Fallacy of Accident: That there is no other cause for young girls/women to start puberty & menstruation early other then fluoride.

Irrelevant Conclusion (Fear): That standard media control in the age of the internet can restrict the flow of information.

Fallacy of False Cause (Causation): Mental defects and problems such as ADHD are caused by fluoride.

I am not sure all these statements were made in this fashion by avenger however it is still good info and Avenger if you have been misrepresented that is an attribution fallacy.

[Kit-Fox]

I'm feeling rather disapointed I'd have hoped by now for a response from Avenger, hell i'm even being nice now!

[TheWay]

There are plenty of other posts for you to argue in, and many that require your attention, that way you can give avenger a break on this topic

[Iƒrit]

Studies have show that the cause for ADHD is from a brain injury caused from the loss of oxygen to the brain. I belive its the front left brain lobe, been awhile since I researched this but I do believe they have done renown research these days with ADHD. Its a hard one to argue as even flouride having benefits is arguable you will find information on both sides of the coin that will say good things and bad things, its merely a point of view whether someone thinks or feels that its a good or bad thing.

[[KMA]Avenger]

I'm feeling rather disapointed I'd have hoped by now for a response from Avenger, hell i'm even being nice now!

sorry for my absence but i'm having some major problems with my computer and on top of that, i've still got problems with my eye (the long and short of that is, last feb while working on my car i cut my eye open and was rushed to hospital. i came close to losing my eye but the doc i had was amazing and managed to save it. he had to remove my lens so i cant focus in my left eye at all. recently i've been suffering badly with headaches on the left side so sometimes i go AWOL for that reason).

back on topic, its been over 9 months since i saw it (and having the health prob in between) i think its time i refreshed my memory and watch the film again lol

i've made note of what you have posted and will respond to them once i have seen the film again and researched both sides, will reply properly over the weekend sometime...

and yes, i have noticed a change (for the better) in your attitude when you post

[TheWay]

I'm feeling rather disapointed I'd have hoped by now for a response from Avenger, hell i'm even being nice now!

sorry for my absence but i'm having some major problems with my computer and on top of that, i've still got problems with my eye (the long and short of that is, last feb while working on my car i cut my eye open and was rushed to hospital. i came close to losing my eye but the doc i had was amazing and managed to save it. he had to remove my lens so i cant focus in my left eye at all. recently i've been suffering badly with headaches on the left side so sometimes i go AWOL for that reason).

back on topic, its been over 9 months since i saw it (and having the health prob in between) i think its time i refreshed my memory and watch the film again lol

i've made note of what you have posted and will respond to them once i have seen the film again and researched both sides, will reply properly over the weekend sometime...

and yes, i have noticed a change (for the better) in your attitude when you post

M8, I am realy sorry to hear that. I don't know if you are a man of faith but I am and I along with my wife would be more then happy to remember you in our prayers if you would be okay with that. I hope your eye gets better and I hope the issues you are having with your cpu are solved as well.

[Kit-Fox]

Shame you've got all those problems Avenger, I really can sympathise. I know its not easy so just take a step back and chill out when you need too.

btw, I've only watched the first two chuncks of that lecture so far, i'm trying to keep open and watch it but blow me is it hard sometimes with how that doc goes on (not understanding, but could he have been more preachy and holier than tho much? )

[[KMA]Avenger]

problems are getting worse and worse, damned if i know what the hell is wrong with this computer!!!
now i've only got 1 USB port working (out of 6) and that's starting to be temperamental, i keep losing my internet connection and have to restart the computer to get the USB port to see the modem

anyways, thanks for the best wishes guys

@TheWay, i believe there is a god, but tbh, i have to consider myself agnostic because i also believe that our history has been, shall we say...interfered with by aliens...

that's another story all together and one i wouldn't mind debating...if any ones up for it?

i have no objections if you wish to include me in your prayers, and you have my sincerest thanks and respects for doing so, regardless of my beliefs



@kit-fox, the guy does know what he's talking about, hence the "holier than thou" attitude, the sound quality of the video doesn't help much either, but fair play to you for watching it so far
i'm trying to get it to play but having a real mare with the comp, i cant afford to take it to get it fixed so have to wait for a friend of mine to make time and come and sort it out for me...

anyways, i will get around to commenting as soon as i can see the film again and refresh my memory.

[Thriller]

@TheWay, i believe there is a god, but tbh, i have to consider myself agnostic because i also believe that our history has been, shall we say...interfered with by aliens...

that's another story all together and one i wouldn't mind debating...if any ones up for it?

Plz elaborate...

[TheWay]

@Avenger if you open a topic on the alian debate that sounds fun, I won't be able to participate much now but hopefully later in the week I will ahve more time.

[[KMA]Avenger]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/ ... nderissues

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01277.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,190977,00.html


in the past i have been criticized for my lack of credible sources. above are links to mainstream reports regarding the dangers of fluoride, so i hope that appeases those who would criticize my sources...



any chance we can resurrect this discussion?

[GhostyGoo]

I have to admit, i haven't read all four pages extensively but i've tried to familiarise myself, instead, with differing viewpoints. I feel i must start my particular addition to this highly volatile subject by pointing out the thread title-
"Debate on Weather Sodium Fluoride Has Any Benefits".

There have been alot of posts simply hatemongering a fair question which is honestly deplorable behaviour for a forum in which healthy dissent is pivotal! Enough said on that matter.
Some posts have also been stating the need to assert what we are dealing with ie "Fluoride" or "Fluorine"; i find this silly for two reasons - firstly, the title of the topic is self explainatory and secondly, these posts in which a definition is called for repeatedly state no reason as to why a confirmation of such is required!
One last bone of contention with the overall reception of this topic are the allusions to bottled water. Any small amount of research will show you that fluoride is added to many top brand name bottled waters and they don't always have to admit it, either.

In my opinion, having studied the development and industrial application of Sodium Fluoride (the inorganic chemical compound NaF which is used in toothpaste and water fluoridation etc) only has one beneficial use and even that is open to much speculation. It is used as Flouride-18 in PET scans and is favoured as a positron emmiter due to it's short half-life. Of course, it's still a radioactive isotope, regardless of how quickly it decays! Frankly, i'm not sure i'd like it anywhere near my brain tissue.

Still, PET scans have accelerated the field of clinical oncology greatly and that has to be accepted regardless of how one feels about having one's body bombarded by tiny atom bombs (essentially, being microwaved).
*chuckles*

Now, on to oral hygiene, yes? Sodium Flouride, in countless tests under countless conditions, has no comparitive benefit to dental health whatsoever. Personally, i have been using a non-Fluoride toothpaste for as long as i can remember and my teeth (except a pesky wisdom one) are fine. Studies comparing the teeth of children and adults in America (where water fluoridation is commited) and Europe (where it is considered a form of enforced medication) have shown, repeatedly, no discernable variations in overall dental health. Actual figures report 8-40% difference which is clearly no where near definative enough to base a conclusion on.

The problem, as i see it, is this - there are a number of natural mineral properties in our water supply which are provided quite nicely by nature. This does not include villiaumite (which is highly toxic to humans) or fluorite (which is used as a smelting flux). If any constituent of Flourine (chemical element atomic number 9) was supposed to be in our drinking water i'm sure nature would have put it there for us?

Before i go into the really ugly bits, i'm going to point a couple of things out-
The Latin word Fluo meaning "to flow" is how the mineral Fluorite came to it's name (it being used to help the flow of metal in metallurgy/smelting by lowering the metal's boiling point). The mineral is very rare and is mostly found in plutonic Nephelene Syenite which also contains the mineral Villiaumite which is the only naturally occuring NaF (Sodium Fluoride) in existence as far as we are aware.
All other NaF is inorganic.
F is the chemical element Fluorine. It has the atomic number 9 and occurs as diatomic F2 molecule which is highly poisonous. The most important consideration for our discussion is it's unrivalled suitability in the enrichment of U235.

So, how do these dots connect up? I will restate my belief that if any mineral form of F(luorine) were supposed to be in drinking water nature would certainly have put it there for our long slow crawl out of the embrionic ooze (note: belief). So we have this inexorable, apparently insubstantiated, albeit diametric link between dental health and nuclear weapons. Is there a connection? I believe there is.

Several accidents occured during the Manhatten project and at least three of them involved UF6 being exposed to air (Uranium Fluoride leaks) which produced highly toxic UO2F2 (uranyl fluoride) and HF (hydrogen fluoride) and subsequently got into the water supply. The next step is two-fold. Firstly, the overseers of the Manhatten project found out that the water soluble Fluoride from these accidents caused lassitude and silliness in the local populace who were exposed (the couch potato effect as it is often referred to) and began experimenting on rats to determine just exactly how docile they could be made. The other thing that came about was purposeful exposure to the less volatile NaF or Sodium Fluoride (which caused similar effects but over a much much longer timespan due to it's half-life i mentioned earlier); this exposure was done under the premise of dental health in order to "dumb-down" the fear factor of being exposed to the much much more dangerous Uranyl and Hydrogen compounds.

I hope this helps some of you understand a little more about the origins of Sodium Fluoride. At the end of the day i believe it should always be a personal choice as to what you put inside your body however, sadly for the United States, this is becoming an increasingly remote liberty. It is already within the Presidential "special powers" created by the Bush Administration to force "vaccinations" upon the People. It won't take a great leap to start dumping nuclear waste into the water supply, afterall - what does the North American Union want a load of nuclear waste floating about the place for when it can just as easily get us to ask for it to be spoon fed to us in the name of those celebrity "Pearly Whites"?

Before one can make a choice, one must wake up

-Goo™