should the state of Israel be allowed to exist...

[Osi]

What proof is there? Hmm show us? I happen to have a very open mind.

[[KMA]Avenger]

*takes a deep calming breath*

ok, let me ask you this...just how open is your mind because the proof is all around you if you have eyes to see.

the biggest problem by far with the proof i have is that you have to first accept the fact that EVERYTHING in the world has been planned to be this way, EVERYTHING from the war on terror to the war on drugs...from our financial system to the property we think we own, its all tied in, 1 to the next, the problems in Palestine didnt just happen, its been manufactured to be the way it is.

if you can accept the fact that the elite own and control just about everything then i can show you proof and just who these animals pray to [spoiler]have a look at these pictures of famous people on this link, i tried to copy the images but it wont let me add them for some reason. i've never visited this site before and dont know whats written there, i just ran a search for "GWB gives satanic hand signal" and that came top:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 ... _satan.htm



http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jGnnaP5eP ... annel_page

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CivLakTKF ... annel_page


its in our faces everywhere and everyday and we are to blind and stupid and to dependent on the tit of the state to even ask a simple question like "what the hell are our leaders making devil signs for?!?!"
i told you, how open are you and 1 more question, are you ready to accept it as even possible, not as fact but a possibility that not all is what it seems?

theres more, so much more that you will hardly believe it! but, you have to first accept it might be possible before i show 1 thing more!
[/spoiler], but i fear you are not ready to open your eyes and have a really good look at the world, and i mean the world that is on the TV and down your street and in your state and in your country...

see what i mean when i say "go look for yourselves", and just you dont think i'm some naive crackpot with nothing better to do, if someone had tried to tell me prior to 11. 09. 2001 what i have learned on my own i would have laughed for a year at least.

information is easier to swallow when you see it for yourself because when others show you there is the problem of ego which gets in the way and stops people from learning. theres also the fact that there are WAAAY to many crackpots in the world and getting and transmitting credible information is hard because of the image of the "crackpot"...

so my question remains, just how open are you?

[Osi]

see there is a difference between debating a topic and conspiracy theories/insanity

[Tacet]

This is where I will exit this debate. The debate has evolved from an interesting issue to something fringing on a conspiracy theory debate. I'm not willing to travel that road again. The tracks on that road is deep, and the ground is well trodden. I can see its end, but I'll stay far away.

[[KMA]Avenger]

and that is why you will never understand the way the world is, its not a theory, tho that road IS well trodden, and for good reason.

ok, why do i dismiss certain arguments?

the reason is simple, most of the information coming back at me has been gained from limited sources, school and the main stream media being the 2 most obvious. if it wasn't because certain people reply back to me with rehashed crap from school and media and actually spoke from research, i would be more open to your points of view. what you fail to see is, i was were you are!

you say your open, the evidence is there but you deny your eyes.

very well then, back on topic...

have any of you even bothered to look at the map?

did any of you even bother having a look when the Balfour Treaty was drawn up and by who??

have any of you even researched the orthodox Jewish and Arabs history to see where this conflict originated from or have you all been spouting the crap you learned from school and mainstream media??


will this suffice as a portion (nothing more) of proof?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9oeB3QhX2RI

[Kit-Fox]

Yes but KMA they dont say that its impossible for a jewish state to exist, only that it has to create by God & not man. Unless this is another sect and there are so many.

IIRC, They are simply against how Isreal exists at the moment, rather than an Isreal existing

[[KMA]Avenger]

Moreover, by the command of the Torah, the Jew is obliged to further the welfare of the state wherein he dwells. He entertains no thought of rebellion. The Torah forbids us to retake the Holy Land by force of arms. Jews abhor the murder of any human being for any reason whatsoever. In our entire long exile, there has never been an instance where the Torah justifies the use of murder, as the Sages point out with particular reference to Genesis Rabba 93.

lifted from this site:

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/nyt/nyt062182.html

maybe i have worded it wrong (after all, i'm not jewish and cant read the Torah and can only go by what i hear from Jews themselves, sorry but i dont trust translations).

all i'm doing is running general searches on Google and most of what comes back confirms what i've said.

[Deaths_Rider]

i may well be new here but while you all slam Avenger for saying things and poke holes in his theroy none of you has really mentioned the topic or put forward some new usefull info just poked holes in what he has brought. that doesn't really help the converstion it just leads it in to mindless contradicions.

his claim the torah forbids a state may be wrong but it does most definatley say that you should live to prosper whatever nation you find yourself in as well as give comfort and aid to all foreners widows and orphans.

as for no discriminating it is almost impossible for an arab to enter in to israel if they are not citizens by birth and due to israels control of the plaistinian border it is difficult for them to even enter palistine.

as for the current conflict it is just a continuation of wars that have been fought for the last 2000+ years and will probably never end with out some form of genicide or mass relocation to another region neither of which is all that likely in the short term.

and as such it is impossible to say who is right and wrong only that it needs to stop.

[n3M351s]

a little history
before Israel was originally set there were many more sutible places that they were offered but refused too use and instead demanded to have palistine.

had they taken tasmania (the large island at the bottom of Aus) as was ofered there would have been no problem to start with because unfortunatley australia had already killed the indigious population of tasmania off

Oi, no ones taking our island! They didn't actually kill off all the Tasmanian Aboriginals, only the full bloods. There are still many Tasmanian Aborigines living in Tasmania. (Living in modern society, not the bush)

[Deaths_Rider]

i know there are still aboriginal people living there but as far as i know (could be wrong) none of them even have a chance to claim native title or sacred sites due to tassy law and the erradication of most of the original population.

now if you want to talk eradication for a long time it was not just legal but incouraged (YOU GOT PAID) to kill aborigines in tasmania but cause the aboriginal people had nowhere to run too and plead there case the world doesn't care. and good luck finding that in a history book!

[urogard]

lets solve this matter very simply.

the usa because they are married to israel, will offer some of their own land to israel where all people living in israel can move.
Israel will become palestine and everyone living there will become a palestinian.

oh yeah i forgot, if that would happen usa would loose their bulwark in the middle east and make their hegemony of that area harder in order to progress their neo colonialist policies, and would also loose therefore a major reason for actually supporting the country at all.

nvm scrap that idea.

[Osi]

Israel deserves to exist, WWI and WWII gave tons of nations their right to chose to exist because of racial lines. So why should the one group that's been beaten to death by history be denied the right to their place of origin?

And avenger if the world has been planned out for centuries and everything is controlled then why do those upstart rulers like Chavez and Ahmadinejad think they can stand in the way of the developed world? Your logic is flawed, if a group had the power to alter events for their own good they would have conquered the world ages ago, Its not like anyone could really offer resistance to a union of two or three of the old super powers. USA, China, and the U.K. could certainly cause some havoc.

[Comador]

it should read ...."should the state of palestine be allowed to exist..." NO

IF Israel would put me in charge I would wipe out every palestine that did not surrender and continue on any other peoples or groups ( muslims terrorist ) that would support the destruction of my country ..........


to bad the muslims dont stand up against their fellow muslims that are terrorist then maybe there would be more peace every where


come to my neighbor hood and see what happens

[[KMA]Avenger]

Israel deserves to exist, WWI and WWII gave tons of nations their right to chose to exist because of racial lines. So why should the one group that's been beaten to death by history be denied the right to their place of origin?

And avenger if the world has been planned out for centuries and everything is controlled then why do those upstart rulers like Chavez and Ahmadinejad think they can stand in the way of the developed world? Your logic is flawed, if a group had the power to alter events for their own good they would have conquered the world ages ago, Its not like anyone could really offer resistance to a union of two or three of the old super powers. USA, China, and the U.K. could certainly cause some havoc.

i have repeatedly told you that the world is not what you think it is...the NWO (new world order) is not on its way, it arrived years ago!

the problem lies in the fact that the new world order is like a brick wall built up around our freedoms and every year that wall gets just that little bit higher, till one day you wake up and find you cant see over it....its called, "Incrementalism".

now if you want to continue this discussion, then please by all means, split this thread and i will say more on the subject...

@Condor, sorry mate but i'm not even gonna bother responding to your post.

[Osi]

If there was NWO then the "anointed one" would not be ascending to his gilded and unwelcome throne in the USA in a few days time. Governance is to inept to maintain a world organization of control.