StarGateWars Forums

Kit-Fox wrote:omg, what have I done?

You have become Logic, the destroyer of Arguments.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:

Legendary Jimster wrote:

Juliette wrote:Anyone living in the EU who hates their country and who would rather betray it, is pro-EU.
Anyone with a bit of national pride, is anti-EU.

Oh my god that was such an overly simplist and totally inaccurate analysis.

Don't accuse me to be a hater and traitor to my country, thank you.

not trying to upset you here mate but seriously...your in favour of the EU which by its very own admission wants to unite all of Europe into the Federal States of Europe. they want 1, army, 1 flag, 1 court system, 1 police force, 1 parliament, 1 monetary system and so on and so forth...so what are you in favour of if not the abolition of your country?

Tell me then how can there be such patriotism and national pride in the USA, if you consider how it's built up, and the specificity of federal/state laws etc...Does it mean that those from California or Florida necessarly hate their state if they are patriots? It's not the same indeed, but I consider the "result" which you refer to, instead of current things, to show you that the goals aren't the end of patriotism.

All of this reminds me the nationalist Corsican, Basque, Scottish, Flemish and all those other independantist movements. They want their region to be split from the state. We can say those people prefer their region over their state, to me they aren't patriots or anything. I don't mind if they keep specificities but if they want to split from the state, then where are we going...

Juliette wrote:

Legendary Jimster wrote:

Juliette wrote:Anyone living in the EU who hates their country and who would rather betray it, is pro-EU.
Anyone with a bit of national pride, is anti-EU.

Oh my god that was such an overly simplist and totally inaccurate analysis.

Don't accuse me to be a hater and traitor/betrayer to my country, thank you.

If you don't see where France is going to end up after the EU has reached their plans for 2050, that's not my problem.
Fact remains, you could know.. so ignorance is no excuse for being a betrayer of your country by favouring the EU.


Either you're with the EU, or you're against it. And if you're with it, you're willing to condemn your country to death in favour of the EU. That is, in my book, treason.

Oh yes I'm an ignorant traitor. Now that's top 10 of things I've been accused of this year.

Oh well, I don't see the point in visiting this place anymore, it's even worse than it ever used to be.
Have fun with your all knowing superior knowledges discussing about ignorant traitors like me.

I'm out.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.. who can tell the difference.

Legendary Jimster wrote:

[KMA]Avenger wrote:

Legendary Jimster wrote:

Juliette wrote:Anyone living in the EU who hates their country and who would rather betray it, is pro-EU.
Anyone with a bit of national pride, is anti-EU.

Oh my god that was such an overly simplist and totally inaccurate analysis.

Don't accuse me to be a hater and traitor to my country, thank you.

not trying to upset you here mate but seriously...your in favour of the EU which by its very own admission wants to unite all of Europe into the Federal States of Europe. they want 1, army, 1 flag, 1 court system, 1 police force, 1 parliament, 1 monetary system and so on and so forth...so what are you in favour of if not the abolition of your country?

Tell me then how can there be such patriotism and national pride in the USA, if you consider how it's built up, and the specificity of federal/state laws etc...Does it mean that those from California or Florida necessarly hate their state if they are patriots? It's not the same indeed, but I consider the "result" which you refer to, instead of current things, to show you that the goals aren't the end of patriotism.

All of this reminds me the nationalist Corsican, Basque, Scottish, Flemish and all those other independantist movements. They want their region to be split from the state. We can say those people prefer their region over their state, to me they aren't patriots or anything. I don't mind if they keep specificities but if they want to split from the state, then where are we going...

the US is NOT the same and you now it mate! the states actually have the right to secede from the union, there is no such provision in the EU constitution...

picture this mate, ALL European countries join the EU and ratify the constitution and accept the whole thing lock stock and barrel. for 10 years all is well and good within our happy little community. until someone manages to take over the whole thing and forces on ALL Europeans things they dont want...what then? break away?? how??? you have no money and nothing of value because you accepted the constitution and handed over your monetary, economic control, you also gave them your gold reserves and all other reserves. so breaking away and forming a new economy wont work...how about force?! you have no armed force with which to fight your way out because some foreign general puppet who you have never heard of is in charge of your armed forces...what then?! i know! good ol democracy, never fails eh? well, if we cant break out economically and we cant fight our way out, we'll vote the whole bunch out of power and keep voting them out till we get what we want...correct? WRONG!!! its NOT a democracy and nobody is voted into office so i'd like to see you try and vote them out!

Politburo Jim?


Jim, for the love of God, discuss things like an adult and not some spoilt child. i've had enough of walking on egg shells when talking to you in fear you will take things personally
stand your ground and talk to me (and others) with the same respect we talk to you with.

i hereby go on record and call anybody a traitor (me included) who supports the abolition of the their country through ignorance because they were to damned upset to go and get the facts!

[KMA]Avenger wrote:speaking for myself...i'm not anti-European, i'm just anti-fascist/socialist/communist and anti-dictatorship

see, that's a problem, thae bolded part is.
you do realise that capitalism is fascism, don't you?

i never said i was a capitalist or that i was in favour of capitalism over other forms of isms

actually, i'm in favour of liberty and freedom both of the individual and for business to form partnerships and trade with anyone in the world, something the EU is not in favour of as evidenced by the fact we can no longer trade with our commonwealth allies due to EU regulations...

but that's a whole-nother discussion.

LOl eu, good job letting the greeks in, That trojan horse is gonna sting for the next 20 years.

Juliette wrote:

Legendary Jimster wrote:

Juliette wrote:Anyone living in the EU who hates their country and who would rather betray it, is pro-EU.
Anyone with a bit of national pride, is anti-EU.

Oh my god that was such an overly simplist and totally inaccurate analysis.

Don't accuse me to be a hater and traitor/betrayer to my country, thank you.

If you don't see where France is going to end up after the EU has reached their plans for 2050, that's not my problem.
Fact remains, you could know.. so ignorance is no excuse for being a betrayer of your country by favouring the EU.


Either you're with the EU, or you're against it. And if you're with it, you're willing to condemn your country to death in favour of the EU. That is, in my book, treason.

I'm well aware where it's heading, don't worry, I'm not as ignorant as you induce.
However, if I didn't know, and followed the blame EU wagon as a french guy...there, I would be a real traitor & hater of my nation, (or a damn out-of-reality dude who would have a tough hangover when the reality would get back at me). I will explain why.

You see, if prefering to have my country live by another way (EU), instead of praising for it being independant (national pride?), but, becoming in long term some weakling subordinate vassal to an outside superpower (China? Russia? UK+USA? whoever that would be), is to be a traitor, then I'm proud to be one. I just want to have it live by another mean, aka the EU, instead of becoming a real minor country. A former superpower of France kind rather prefers to unite with others to keep sort of power rather than be independant and become minorly important, if it's the obvious destiny as independant nation.

Me being a hater or a traitor? If I was one, I would join the parasitic thuggish scums who are happily burning national flag and list could go on, don't worry, as a "traitor" I have a good knoweldge and dislike of who the real haters are. Tell UMP politicians in favour of EU they are traitors and haters to France. I'm sure they would be happy to explain how wrong that is. You see, I followed the debate about "national identity"in France, started by the same UMP party, who also happens to be pro EU. Did they became hostile to EU afterwards? Not really. Were they accused by other parties to play the nationalist and far right card with this debate? Obviously. UMP is not far right, but they aren't haters or traitors either. We don't hate the other nations in Europe and don't see them as enemies plotting against us (like some far right nationalist overly patriot parties in some European countries tend to do). And this party is among firsts to react when France's integrity is assaulted. I don't think they are idiots however, despite they keep such stance about nation & EU (which is mine), right?

Rising China, rising India, powerful Russia. Days of powerful western Europe individual nations are gone. It's time to open your eyes, we aren't in 1900s anymore, France isn' anymore a colonial superpower (and thus be able to live alone). UK & Germany could be the only ones who could live outside of EU and hope to remain something strong. France was great superpower with worldwide used language, France still is a military power, but it's not the only thing that matters nowadays. We also are a nuclear power, but it's not only thing that matters either. Now it's combination of various things. EU provides it, France itself doesn't completly.

Now, I will add on this, France is NOT UK. UK has been for a shorter time in EU, is trying to limit its involvement in EU and thus, would have more chances to live outside of EU. France, like many other countries, would lose its strenght and importance, and we would just become "weaklings" (in long term). UK has key relations with USA. That's among one of its advantages IF it was to leave EU. KF and Avenger provided many things that could lead to a rational reasoning as to why UK might be better off EU than in it. Yes, I admit your list of arguments is worthy. UK benefited less than France from EU. How could I be a traitor or hater considering France benefits from EU? Maybe if I was from UK, I might be considered as one. But I'm french, so it's a different story.

But now, I didn't see, and don't expect to see such valid arguments about France like KF & G posted for UK. We are different to UK.

Being anti EU and be French IS a big mistake. UK got the £. It's a decently strong currency. We had the Franc, one of the devaluated currencies (unlike the Mark, explains why I said Germany would be second country who might be able to survive well out of EU, but that would weaken streight of EU based corporations, such as Airbus-EADS), that money if we were idiotic enough to leave EU, would be surrounded by two powerful currencies. £ & €. It would be turned into another Lira-like money in no time to attempt to base ourselves on exports. And we would be **Filtered** up due to $ being the currency used for oil, and thus would cost tons compared to strong €, which is advantage for imported oil.

Now you got a reasonable answer from me.


PS: I almost forgot about something, I prefer adding it as a post scriptum. Another difference between UK and most "long term" EU countries. As I said, not very pro EU policy is incarnated by the presence of the UKip which isn't far right. Not far right party, and for UK independance. Now, that doesn't exist in many EU countries. When you are against EU as a party, you are most of times either far left or far right, excepted UK and Ireland which both show a bad opinion towards EU on a more large scale. Just wanted to add it, to avoid having G or KF commenting on links far right/anti EU I could have made, to explain another fact that UK is different to France, and why it might sound wrong to them.

As far as I know, Netherlands is more similar to France on the matter, than UK is. Those against EU are mostly on the extremes. The traditional right wing equivalent of french's UMP, Christian Democratic Appeal (CDA), is likely to be rather pro EU if I'm not mistaken. In the UK, Cameron's Conservatives of UK are rather negative about EU without being totally against it, but in favour of increased sovereignty. Just like France's Mouvement Pour la France (right wing party for sovereignty), sovereign stance about EU, not against it, but in favour of semi independance of nations. That is still different from likes of french's Front National, or british BNP, who are the anti EU.

Now, I don't remember whether Dutch's far right party PVV are soverignists or anti EU like BNP is, but I don't think Netherlands despite its no to Lisbon treaty (like France did, doesn't always mean they are anti EU, from what I noticed) is anti EU labelled like UK or Ireland might be from time to time. Due to UKip existance in UK, my view on British anti EU people isn't same, it's more diversified hostility towards EU explains that. However countries without such party, when people have an anti EU stance reveal often a "far something" position. France being one of those countries without a UKip, me being supporter of UMP, I couldn't be anti EU, and also would dislike much to be considered as traitor or hater of nation, like usually right wing people would react. Again, I don't think UMP or other pro EU right wing parties (I prefer not to talk about left wing pro EU, as I am more aware about right wing) & their supporters are idiots or ignorants regarding EU. I'm sure our majority party chief in national parliament in France, called Jean-François Copé, considering his stance on nation & EU related subjects, can't be considered as a traitor or a hater of French nation, or be considered as an ignorant. Same applies to our prime minister François Fillon.

Jim, i'm glad you decided to come back. please from now on, do yourself and all of us a favour and debate things and issues, and dont take them personally...we are after all-all adults here i assume?! otherwise we wouldn't be in this part of the forum...correct?

[KMA]Avenger wrote:Jim, i'm glad you decided to come back. please from now on, do yourself and all of us a favour and debate things and issues, and dont take them personally...we are after all-all adults here i assume?! otherwise we wouldn't be in this part of the forum...correct?

I'm sure people, even when they are adults, have some subjects in which they tend to take more personally than rest. The subject of loyalty or traitorness/hateness towards your nation, is often causing some troubles.
Not that it's how it should be..but it's a fact I think than few subjects in political debates even when it's not immature people debating, can cause some troubles depending on how they are handleled.

All I'm reading is "If I were this, then that and those would be .."
Since you're debating from your gut, your arguments are emotional.

For a proper debate, these arguments are worthless. So. Back to basics. Principles, not examples. Facts, not supposition. And if you need to go into supposition, do so by the guiding hand of experience or knowledge.

A lot of words about why you feel how you feel, and very interesting, if I wanted to know that. Your story, however, is so personal that it bears no other relevance than to illustrate a possible way someone would see things.
You're putting up your reading of a Rorschach test, and I'm not going to argue what you see is right or wrong. I am going to say this, and that'll be it; If you feel this is how things are, then fine. But debate? That works differently.

We could all write exposes on how marvellous or decrepit we believe our world to be, but if we cannot translate those thoughts to logical reasoning, the message becomes hollow. "I think it rains." - "Why?" - "I see raindrops falling on the patio floor, there." We're not here for a questionnaire. We're here for a debate. If that is an impossibility due to lack of emotional restraint and a clear analytical mind, then that's the end of it. This has then become a book club. "How did you feel when reading this?" - "Oh my, that's interesting. I read this." - "Excellent. Cheerio, old chums."

Now that's incarnating why I wonder I still post here..

I spend a whole hour trying to find content worthy of replying to a supposition (yes a supposition, if all what I said are not facts, then me being supposedly a "traitor" and a "hater" aren't either...because facts opposed to supposed absence of facts coming from me aren't here), and I get a post about how I [don't] debate. If I knew, I wouldn't have posted a twentieth of what I posted...

I'm getting bored to have to meet this or that extra requirements to fit the proper way to debate, it's not fun (not that debating can really be considered as fun, but let's imagine it is). I'm sorry, but given very small amount of debaters left here, you have to deal with the likes of me who don't know how to debate, or then have barely anyone to debate with.

anyways...


would be nice if i could get a response to my bolded and underlined part of my post:

[KMA]Avenger wrote:

Legendary Jimster wrote:

[KMA]Avenger wrote:

Legendary Jimster wrote:

Juliette wrote:Anyone living in the EU who hates their country and who would rather betray it, is pro-EU.
Anyone with a bit of national pride, is anti-EU.

Oh my god that was such an overly simplist and totally inaccurate analysis.

Don't accuse me to be a hater and traitor to my country, thank you.

not trying to upset you here mate but seriously...your in favour of the EU which by its very own admission wants to unite all of Europe into the Federal States of Europe. they want 1, army, 1 flag, 1 court system, 1 police force, 1 parliament, 1 monetary system and so on and so forth...so what are you in favour of if not the abolition of your country?

Tell me then how can there be such patriotism and national pride in the USA, if you consider how it's built up, and the specificity of federal/state laws etc...Does it mean that those from California or Florida necessarly hate their state if they are patriots? It's not the same indeed, but I consider the "result" which you refer to, instead of current things, to show you that the goals aren't the end of patriotism.

All of this reminds me the nationalist Corsican, Basque, Scottish, Flemish and all those other independantist movements. They want their region to be split from the state. We can say those people prefer their region over their state, to me they aren't patriots or anything. I don't mind if they keep specificities but if they want to split from the state, then where are we going...

the US is NOT the same and you now it mate! the states actually have the right to secede from the union, there is no such provision in the EU constitution...

picture this mate, ALL European countries join the EU and ratify the constitution and accept the whole thing lock stock and barrel. for 10 years all is well and good within our happy little community. until someone manages to take over the whole thing and forces on ALL Europeans things they dont want...what then? break away?? how??? you have no money and nothing of value because you accepted the constitution and handed over your monetary, economic control, you also gave them your gold reserves and all other reserves. so breaking away and forming a new economy wont work...how about force?! you have no armed force with which to fight your way out because some foreign general puppet who you have never heard of is in charge of your armed forces...what then?! i know! good ol democracy, never fails eh? well, if we cant break out economically and we cant fight our way out, we'll vote the whole bunch out of power and keep voting them out till we get what we want...correct? WRONG!!! its NOT a democracy and nobody is voted into office so i'd like to see you try and vote them out!

Politburo Jim?

meh EU doesnt work.

Mister Sandman wrote:meh EU doesnt work.

well, thats obvious to everyone, except it seems the pro-EU mob