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Yah okay, so its okay to blatantly persecute people because "they do it too". Notice how you didnt refute the fact of your subjective persecution, you merely legitimized it through a comparison to people you view as your persecutors; all is fair in war mentality(cognitive dissonance). You know the crusades finished up about 700 years ago.

Same logic applies to you, stop demonising the church or any reglion based on so called witch hunts, where it was humanity actually instated them. I.e athiesm or humanism is actually responsible.

It's okay though right? forget about all those innocent women and men burned at the stake, drowned, hung, disembowled to protect your right to worship yahweh.

you forget the guilty ones too. No justice system that man has made and enforces is perfect. You can say your statement, right now back at athiesm, hundism, any other religion, belief or creed.

Also Harry potter based in the real world? Are you on crack?
you let me know when you see flying invisible horses and people transporting themselves through chimneys, and i'll make sure you get the help you need.

Yes, and no im not on crack, read the book, if you havnt, why are you here? It is based, in both the real world and a fantasy world. Which have said before.

I want to be cool and be involved in a direct response within a quote ....first off there is a a KNOWN distinction not know distinction which I think you meant to say NO distinction. There is as Harry Potter can love and Voldemort is unable to, and therefore he is bad and Harry is good.

As although V is the 'same' as in species as HP, i.e V can love, there is nothing saying he cant. It may be a 'witch hunt' against V he might be out to save the world, the antagonist gets the short end of the stick. If you look at it motives are really not clear, maybe V wants to kill HP because i dont know that HP will be the end of the world?

Magic is simply the medium by which they duel, it's fantastical nature has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the morals of the story, it is simply a plot device.

Read what i said before. It opens children to the occult through this 'plot device' . Oh and fyi the moral of the story is death.

LoTR is not a clear world, it is terribly wrought with magic, Tom Bombadil is a clear and effortless personification of Magic, he controls nature effortlessly, and Gandalf along with the rest of the Istari or Wizards, are magical in nature. The Great Rings are all magical, and are used to benefit or destroy the world around the wielders. Sauron was a shapeshifter and the lead Nazgul was The WITCH KING of Angmar...do not say that there is no mystical properties in LoTR,
but it is totally separate form the 'real world' as it has a clear world of its own, if you diagree, look at the map of LoTR and the hobbit then you might understand, for it has no connection with the real world. In addition there is a clear distinction between good and evil. Magic just emphases the underling morals. I.e Power leads to corruption (haveing the ring and temptation of power of using the ring)

it is far from a clear world, one could argue that it is more deeply entrenched with magic than Harry Potter.

However, there is less occult practices described.

It is most assuredly a selective attack, they are singling out a single book because it is very wide spread, and highly popular, and although it will never out sell the bible, with the younger generation it has far more appeal, and is therefore seen as a more influential factor amongst young children, even if it preaches that love is the be all end all of existence. The magical aspect is the factor that is chosen to be important, not the morals, or lessons, just the magic. That my friend is selective, and therefore your assertion that it turns children to pagan religions is unfounded.

As said the underlining moral or theme of the book is death, ect.. as pointed out the occult love it as it brings more people to them, read what i said previously direct quotes of the church of satan

Yes you certainly can go on, but just as you go on the list of Christian's persecuting their fellow man simply for being a little difference also goes on. Organized religion has caused more deaths than anything else in Human History, just look at the crusades for examples of brain washing.

Religion is any form of belief. So look at the massacre in russia with Stalin and the communists, and china likewise.

the crusades didnt kill many people compared with how many more died in the cold war, ww1, ww2 ect.... justified? No, but one cant judge.

If you go and fight these children of Abraham in the desert, you will automatically be granted a place in Heaven and all of your sins shall be forgiven. Not that God granted these people the right to live, separate from our influence but still under his direction, since they have their own prophets amongst whom Jesus Christ is also counted, 'tis simply that Muhammad is the singular most important to their faith, as Jesus is to the Christians.
That is not Christianity.

Stop your bastardized logic of two wrongs make it justified, that has never, nor ever will be the case. Think on your own before telling other people how to think.

Back at you. Worse is to point it out and say, this happen and this happen, when you get back some history lessons.
Stop your bastardized logic of two wrongs make it justified. And
Think on your own before telling other people how to think.

Mister Sandman wrote:

I want to be cool and be involved in a direct response within a quote ....first off there is a a KNOWN distinction not know distinction which I think you meant to say NO distinction. There is as Harry Potter can love and Voldemort is unable to, and therefore he is bad and Harry is good.

As although V is the 'same' as in species as HP, i.e V can love, there is nothing saying he cant. It may be a 'witch hunt' against V he might be out to save the world, the antagonist gets the short end of the stick. If you look at it motives are really not clear, maybe V wants to kill HP because i dont know that HP will be the end of the world?

it is clearly stated within the plot that had Voldemort been able to love, none of this would have happened, Dumbledore says it, Harry says it, J.K. Rowling says it and therefore as she is the be all end all of HP knowledge Voldemort cannot love.

Magic is simply the medium by which they duel, it's fantastical nature has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the morals of the story, it is simply a plot device.

Read what i said before. It opens children to the occult through this 'plot device' . Oh and fyi the moral of the story is death.

FYI the moral of the story is that love conquers all, oh my goodness isn't that the same thing the bible preaches? that love and faith are the pinnacles of society?

LoTR is not a clear world, it is terribly wrought with magic, Tom Bombadil is a clear and effortless personification of Magic, he controls nature effortlessly, and Gandalf along with the rest of the Istari or Wizards, are magical in nature. The Great Rings are all magical, and are used to benefit or destroy the world around the wielders. Sauron was a shapeshifter and the lead Nazgul was The WITCH KING of Angmar...do not say that there is no mystical properties in LoTR,
but it is totally separate form the 'real world' as it has a clear world of its own, if you diagree, look at the map of LoTR and the hobbit then you might understand, for it has no connection with the real world. In addition there is a clear distinction between good and evil. Magic just emphases the underling morals. I.e Power leads to corruption (haveing the ring and temptation of power of using the ring)

it is far from a clear world, one could argue that it is more deeply entrenched with magic than Harry Potter.

However, there is less occult practices described.

so basically because HP says Avada Kedavra its evil....excellent logic, I might have to introduce a single mystical phrase in my novel so I can be so reviled even though the words in this book do nothing....

It is most assuredly a selective attack, they are singling out a single book because it is very wide spread, and highly popular, and although it will never out sell the bible, with the younger generation it has far more appeal, and is therefore seen as a more influential factor amongst young children, even if it preaches that love is the be all end all of existence. The magical aspect is the factor that is chosen to be important, not the morals, or lessons, just the magic. That my friend is selective, and therefore your assertion that it turns children to pagan religions is unfounded.

As said the underlining moral or theme of the book is death, ect.. as pointed out the occult love it as it brings more people to them, read what i said previously direct quotes of the church of satan
yes yes we love harry potter because it has brought our recruitment numbers up because people believe everything they read, humans aren't intelligent and therefore do not think for themselves, a Human can be intelligent but as a group we are practically worthless. The underlying moral has absolutely nothing to do with death I suggest you read the series before saying that. Death is a huge factor, because death is a prominent factor in life, it is inescapable, but it is not a moral.

Yes you certainly can go on, but just as you go on the list of Christian's persecuting their fellow man simply for being a little difference also goes on. Organized religion has caused more deaths than anything else in Human History, just look at the crusades for examples of brain washing.

Religion is any form of belief. So look at the massacre in russia with Stalin and the communists, and china likewise.

the crusades didnt kill many people compared with how many more died in the cold war, ww1, ww2 ect.... justified? No, but one cant judge.

so again two or more wrongs make a right?

If you go and fight these children of Abraham in the desert, you will automatically be granted a place in Heaven and all of your sins shall be forgiven. Not that God granted these people the right to live, separate from our influence but still under his direction, since they have their own prophets amongst whom Jesus Christ is also counted, 'tis simply that Muhammad is the singular most important to their faith, as Jesus is to the Christians.
That is not Christianity.

that was the crusades buddy, the pope declared any one who went and fought in the crusades to retake the holy land was automatically granted a place in heaven and all their sins forgiven...

Stop your bastardized logic of two wrongs make it justified, that has never, nor ever will be the case. Think on your own before telling other people how to think.

Back at you. Worse is to point it out and say, this happen and this happen, when you get back some history lessons.
Stop your bastardized logic of two wrongs make it justified. And
Think on your own before telling other people how to think.

I am actually unsure of what you mean by this pathetic excuse of a rebuttal, I have no bastardized logic whatsoever, I point out facts which you disagree with and therefore you believe I am wrong. My point of view contradicts yours and is therefore automatically incorrect. Discussing things with you is like arguing with a 14 year old, they think they know everything and yet they have no practical experience to draw upon, their conclusions are full of naive ideals, and terrible misconceptions. Perhaps you should hit the books a little harder, or maybe instead of reading already written books you can go look at first source documents like I do on a regular basis, and make your own thought on how things happen in human history.

it is clearly stated within the plot that had Voldemort been able to love, none of this would have happened, Dumbledore says it, Harry says it, J.K. Rowling says it and therefore as she is the be all end all of HP knowledge Voldemort cannot love.

FYI the moral of the story is that love conquers all, oh my goodness isn't that the same thing the bible preaches? that love and faith are the pinnacles of society?

yes yes we love harry potter because it has brought our recruitment numbers up because people believe everything they read, humans aren't intelligent and therefore do not think for themselves, a Human can be intelligent but as a group we are practically worthless. The underlying moral has absolutely nothing to do with death I suggest you read the series before saying that. Death is a huge factor, because death is a prominent factor in life, it is inescapable, but it is not a moral.

so again two or more wrongs make a right?

If you go and fight these children of Abraham in the desert, you will automatically be granted a place in Heaven and all of your sins shall be forgiven. Not that God granted these people the right to live, separate from our influence but still under his direction, since they have their own prophets amongst whom Jesus Christ is also counted, 'tis simply that Muhammad is the singular most important to their faith, as Jesus is to the Christians.

that was the crusades buddy, the pope declared any one who went and fought in the crusades to retake the holy land was automatically granted a place in heaven and all their sins forgiven...

I am actually unsure of what you mean by this pathetic excuse of a rebuttal, I have no bastardized logic whatsoever, I point out facts which you disagree with and therefore you believe I am wrong. My point of view contradicts yours and is therefore automatically incorrect. Discussing things with you is like arguing with a 14 year old, they think they know everything and yet they have no practical experience to draw upon, their conclusions are full of naive ideals, and terrible misconceptions. Perhaps you should hit the books a little harder, or maybe instead of reading already written books you can go look at first source documents like I do on a regular basis, and make your own thought on how things happen in human history.

Mister Sandman wrote:

it is clearly stated within the plot that had Voldemort been able to love, none of this would have happened, Dumbledore says it, Harry says it, J.K. Rowling says it and therefore as she is the be all end all of HP knowledge Voldemort cannot love.

Just because they all say it doesnt mean its not true.

Juliette wrote: Indeed! When the writers of a story say "this is how it is", doesn't mean that is how it is. Hell, all fictional and non-fictional books have to abide by the Big Book's laws.

Did you not read the fine print?


Bible's Gods book of propaganda anyway. A rather successful attempt at herd-control.

Mister Sandman wrote:

Juliette wrote: Indeed! When the writers of a story say "this is how it is", doesn't mean that is how it is. Hell, all fictional and non-fictional books have to abide by the Big Book's laws.

Did you not read the fine print?


Bible's Gods book of propaganda anyway. A rather successful attempt at herd-control.

Ever heard of personal interpretation? In addition, there is lacking of evidence in which she said it. Not to mention the fact:

"There is no good and evil,
there is only power, and those too weak to seek it."
Lord Voldemort, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone

Stay on topic. The bible is scripture, i.e Holy Word. And it is not herd control. It is freedom. Read it.

Spyridon wrote:I've read some notes on HP for reasons I will keep to myself but the themes used in Harry Potter are ones revered by all people and can have echoes in every religious Bible. It just depends if you are willing to see it.

The real moral of Harry Potter can't be summed up in a single word, Sandman (and why are you focused on that point of the books anyway?). It's not only death, it's various other things which include the points below:

* Always use the proper name for things. Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
* The truth is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution.

That is a really bad message. Being timid with the truth is the same thing as deception. Truth is truth, it is not terrible, it is fact.

* To have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever.

In form of a spell? Yah great! a few things wrong with this it leads to, 1. Spirit Worship, i.e worshipping the dead. 2. The ambition of going after magical powers.

* It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends.
* It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.

And that's just a few points that the HP series covers. My friend even pointed out that in Book 4, it shows how valued a corpse of a loved one can be. That's also in the bible on how Jesus' followers took care of their Lord's body after he died the first time.

HP makes demon worship innocent via the use of magic, symbols and motifs. And thus, a problem.
As mentioned: The Thor's Lightening Bolt on Harry's forehead is just one of a few symbols and impact the readers view, perception on the occults.

Wait. What?
How many children do you know who know Thor, let alone his association to pagan religions and the lightning bolt?

Narnia has been proven to be a series that is laced with Christian beliefs and morality. Of course only the bad guys use witchcraft! Because witchcraft is inherently evil and must be destroyed, otherwise we are inviting Satan into our minds and bodies and turning ourselves into the damned on Earth.

Harry Potter is a fictional story that is laced with the idea that all things have a good and a bad side to them. You can learn neuroscience and either use that knowledge to study the processes of the brain and hope to cure mental illness, or you can "take the path of evil" and research mind control and build up an army of minions.Witchcraft was the chosen topic of choice for Rowling because fantasy books sell for kids.

The characters hardly rely on witchcraft to do everything for them; in fact, they don't really get into learning real deep magic until they need to know it so that they can fight it in the later books. And the reader will see the ill effects of dark magic, or even going up against dark magic. The series in no way glorifies witchcraft, nor does it say "join us".

Yes, there are those who may see it as a book trying to convince them to join Wicca. But Wicca has nothing to do with spells and witchcraft the way Harry Potter might make it seem. Pagan religions that center around magic are more about spirituality and peace than any organized religion like Christianity. I don't see the Pagans going to war with each other over a heap of land in the middle of a desert, or killing each other because they believe they are right and the enemy is doing wrong and living in a life of sin. Christianity is full of this Black and White **Filtered** and most pagans believe in compromise, peace, and allowing people to believe what they want without judgment.

Oh noes, this book has witchcraft, and even the main characters use it! It must be evil.

Yes, some might actually join Wicca or research Witchcraft because of reading/growing up with Harry Potter. Then again, whole churches have been created thanks to contemporary media. Look at Scientology (L. Ron Hubbard wrote his novels years before giving an interview where he said he'd love to start his own religion. Then he did, and it uses those books as its own type of Bible, when they were known science fiction novels) or The Path of The One (an entire religion devoted to The Matrix and the idea that we live in some kind of cyber dimension as shown in the movies). There will always be readers/fans who take modern media in a way it was never intended. Does that make that book/film/show evil/immoral? No. It just means that everyone has the right to interpret anything however they see fit. That right belongs to everyone and no one has any sort of right to take that away.

Mister Sandman wrote:

Wait. What?
How many children do you know who know Thor, let alone his association to pagan religions and the lightning bolt?

A fantastic point.

You prove my argument stronger this case. Symbols themselves hold spiritual powers.

Im not going to have a long winded speech about this. But it is one of satans goals to have atheists who practice magic. Meaning, a person who doesnt know about the spiritual word, but still is in practice of it. (Doublethink method)

Narnia has been proven to be a series that is laced with Christian beliefs and morality. Of course only the bad guys use witchcraft! Because witchcraft is inherently evil and must be destroyed, otherwise we are inviting Satan into our minds and bodies and turning ourselves into the damned on Earth.

Harry Potter is a fictional story that is laced with the idea that all things have a good and a bad side to them. You can learn neuroscience and either use that knowledge to study the processes of the brain and hope to cure mental illness, or you can "take the path of evil" and research mind control and build up an army of minions.Witchcraft was the chosen topic of choice for Rowling because fantasy books sell for kids.

Look at bold in quote above this one. neuroscience is not inherently evil.

HP is the same genre as Narnia. (As said before)

Mister Sandman wrote:

The characters hardly rely on witchcraft to do everything for them; in fact, they don't really get into learning real deep magic until they need to know it so that they can fight it in the later books. And the reader will see the ill effects of dark magic, or even going up against dark magic. The series in no way glorifies witchcraft, nor does it say "join us".

You say dark magic, all magic is evil, dark white, yellow what does the colour have do with it. Again look at bod in the quote twice above this one.
The series makes witchcraft look innocent and does encourage active participation. It is subtle but it is there.

Mister Sandman wrote:

Yes, there are those who may see it as a book trying to convince them to join Wicca. But Wicca has nothing to do with spells and witchcraft the way Harry Potter might make it seem. Pagan religions that center around magic are more about spirituality and peace than any organized religion like Christianity. I don't see the Pagans going to war with each other over a heap of land in the middle of a desert, or killing each other because they believe they are right and the enemy is doing wrong and living in a life of sin. Christianity is full of this Black and White **Filtered** and most pagans believe in compromise, peace, and allowing people to believe what they want without judgment.

Some of this statements are unjust and unwarranted. Organised religion like Cchristianity? Dont make me laugh bitterly. Dont see pagans going to war? Actually they are, everyday, every moment, even when they have human sacrifices. Pagans believe in compromise, peace, and allowing people to believe what they want without judgement, for one, that is not true, for two judgement is inevitable, for three what do you know what pagans believe in?

Mister Sandman wrote:

Oh noes, this book has witchcraft, and even the main characters use it! It must be evil.

Pretty much.

Mister Sandman wrote:

Yes, some might actually join Wicca or research Witchcraft because of reading/growing up with Harry Potter. Then again, whole churches have been created thanks to contemporary media. Look at Scientology (L. Ron Hubbard wrote his novels years before giving an interview where he said he'd love to start his own religion. Then he did, and it uses those books as its own type of Bible, when they were known science fiction novels) or The Path of The One (an entire religion devoted to The Matrix and the idea that we live in some kind of cyber dimension as shown in the movies). There will always be readers/fans who take modern media in a way it was never intended. Does that make that book/film/show evil/immoral? No. It just means that everyone has the right to interpret anything however they see fit. That right belongs to everyone and no one has any sort of right to take that away.

L. Ron Hubbard Novels are somewhat banned in parts of UK, the koran is said to be a fascist doctrine and is in the process of being outlawed in a number of countries...

There will be extremists, however, HP unlike other books does damage even to the innocent of reader.