Sex before Sacrament

[Kit-Fox]

Righty ho.....

You ought to read up on the latest about medical research into sexual reproduction, daily sex isnt exactly difficult or even biologically stressful & will have no overall effect on your future ability.

As for sti/d stuff well you covered that in another point, what you mentioning the same thing twice now?? really thats just lame & you know it

[Mister Sandman]

Righty ho.....

You ought to read up on the latest about medical research into sexual reproduction, daily sex isnt exactly difficult or even biologically stressful & will have no overall effect on your future ability.

As for sti/d stuff well you covered that in another point, what you mentioning the same thing twice now?? really thats just lame & you know it

did i mention daily?


and no, STDs is one thing, however, unforeseen side effects are another.

Many do not know that STDs can create infertility

[Thriller]

Don't try to diverge my thread into the science of sexuality. Sandman, I can already tell from your first couple posts on it, you don't understand what your talking about and your confirmation bias is showing itself again.


As for my definition of porenia, it is from the greek lexicon of (taylor and smith) available to me online through at my university archive..... I can't find it published anywhere on the internet for free...
So that why i said look it up for yourself. Not online.. but through a peer reviewd historical translation. Available at yor local university.

The bottom line..... so far you have not been able to demonstrate where in the bible is says sex before marriage is wrong.

I struck down your argument involving your mistranslation...
and that is the only coherent argument you made... involving the definiton of fornication which was used incorrectly.... Thats it.

You even took that whole passage from paul out of context but i let that go because you didnt even give your interpretation on its moral.

[Kit-Fox]

Sorry about the divergence Thriller, bit I just had to take Sandman to task over the statement that sexual activity negatively affects your future fertiliy. I've heard some real porkies over my time about sex but that one is definately in the top 3.

[Thriller]

There is no need to be sorry, I fully understand how sandmans lack of understanding of even the most basic things can upset people.


He doesn't even understand the contextualisation of language.
If you look at the word "gay" it used to mean happy, Now it means mostly homosexuality.

When looking for a meaning of a word you have to look at it's context and time period.

The word fonication itself comes from the latin verb fornicare. which is futher derived from the latin for fornix. A fornix described the prodomanent archway that existed over entrances to brothels(which is funny since that same archway is used now by many churches ). Fornicare litteraly meant "sex in the archway" but contextually as "sex with protitutes." in the roman time period it was used.

As that word developed over the course of history it began to mean "sex between two un-married individuals".

When you look at word like porneia. You must first realize it is from Koine Greek, or "Common Greek" if you like. And by "common", i mean spoken among the people.

During the time of when bible was written, the word meant "illicite sexual behavior"(Taylor and Smith) p594 section b, university of Toronto archive, Middle Greek Lexicon
The greeks of that time period were very sexualy permissive. (Homosexuality, Sex with mutiple partners,..ex) Were common.
You would have to be an idiot to think "sex before marriage"( a common practise for them in that time) would apply for a greek word for illegal sexual sexual practices.

Now for context,

Homosexuality is outlined clearly as something God does not like. The greeks did not mind it but the bible has a different view. Now the word choice seems to be in conflict with the real defintion... or does it....

When taken in the context, Paul is clearly using the word to outline "illicite/illegal sexual practices" that are mentioned in the bible; like the greeks used to illustrate sex that went counter to their laws, So Paul is using it to refer to sex going counter to the bible laws.

But since "sex before marriage" is no where outlined in the bible as immoral or counter to God's law. It cannot be infered he was refering to "sex before marriage" when speaking upon corrupt sexual practices. (The word fornication isn't even used before Corintheans)

I think that is pretty straightforward Sandman.... but still ... you probably won't understand it. You'll pull another strawman out trying to intepret what i said. Or just ignore and diverge in another direction that has no bearing on what i'm discusing.....

[Hitchkok]

There is no need to be sorry, I fully understand how sandmans lack of understanding of even the most basic things can upset people.


He doesn't even understand the contextualisation of language.
If you look at the word "gay" it used to mean happy, Now it means mostly homosexuality.

When looking for a meaning of a word you have to look at it's context and time period.

Likewise, if you're looking for a meaning of a word in a translated text, you have to look at it's context in the original language.

The word fonication itself comes from the latin verb fornicare. which is futher derived from the latin for fornix. A fornix described the prodomanent archway that existed over entrances to brothels(which is funny since that same archway is used now by many churches ). Fornicare litteraly meant "sex in the archway" but contextually as "sex with protitutes." in the roman time period it was used.

As that word developed over the course of history it began to mean "sex between two un-married individuals".

the commandment in Hebrew is "Lo tin'af".
"Lo" is "no", and is an imperative here.
"Tin'af" is fornicate, in the meaning it is given today (In the first person, future tense).
not that any of this is material to the discussion, but still, thought y'all might like to know.

[Thriller]

the commandment in Hebrew is "Lo tin'af".
"Lo" is "no", and is an imperative here.
"Tin'af" is fornicate, in the meaning it is given today (In the first person, future tense).
not that any of this is material to the discussion, but still, thought y'all might like to know.

I did put it in context with the text...

What you wrote is not in context....

and is kind of confusing....

Stop spamming my thread

[Hitchkok]

the commandment in Hebrew is "Lo tin'af".
"Lo" is "no", and is an imperative here.
"Tin'af" is fornicate, in the meaning it is given today (In the first person, future tense).
not that any of this is material to the discussion, but still, thought y'all might like to know.

I did put it in context with the text...

What you wrote is not in context....

and is kind of confusing....

Stop spamming my thread

start answering my argument

[Thriller]

Why IS it done, than?
If it's out of love, than why not marry?
What natural feelings?
Love? again, marriage (or, as the church would say holy matrimony)
Lust? you've just ruled that out as a legitimate reason.
What other feelings drive people to have sex (okay, I can see anger and hate as legitimate answers here, but somehow I sex ensued by either would constitute a sin worse than one ensued by lust)?

the real reason the church objects to sex out of wedlock is because it is blasphemy and heresy.
you see, sex is sacred in the Judeo-christian tradition (admittedly, some fanatic Christian treat it as the original sin, but this is not an original christian concept EDIT:Okay, after reading Paul's Letter to the Corinthians, i stand corrected. Boy, you have a screwed up religion.). It is the means of propegating, the (chronologically) first of the 613 commandments ("Mitzvot") ("And God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply" Genesis 1:28).
And, as all things sacred, it should not be taken lightly.
it should be practiced under respectful circumstances and with the proper thought in mind. And that thought is to propegate, thus fullfilling God's command, and not to "screw around", fullfiling nougt but momentary pleasures.
Also, remember that men (and women) were made in the image of god ("And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them." Genesis 1:27). thus, making our own bodies of holy nature.
So, just as the church would object to the use of one of thosh incense-burning thingies as a bong, or to the use of a cross as a club, so it objects to the use of our bodies for somthing which is less than holy.

EDIT: Damn, I'm so wasted on atheism. Just think how I could induce guilt trips and fanatic fervors in impressionable youths.

GEN 1; 24-28

And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth,b and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
29Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

I'll take that quote in a broder context hitch.

This is from the very beginning of the bible where God creates everything. God gives this commandment to his new favorite creation; to go forth and cover the earth to please him.(lolol it's like were an ant farm)

It's an allegory used to explain why we are here on earth and can be used to explain the origin of our physical desires; The passage illustrates that our sexual desire are a gift from god.

Saying that sex cannot be done if not involving, Lust, hate, jealousy.. or that the act is in another way inherently impure would suggest that Gods gift of sex is tainted somehow.

Now if Sandman wanted to stay consistent with his religious beliefs (god i wish he would). He would know that it is our own freewill that turns gods gifts to evil.

Why IS it done, than?
What other feelings drive people to have sex which is not tainted by lust?

But instead he writes this ^

Now this is in direct contradiction to another bunch of crap he gave me in a different thread. There he told me that god did not create evil, we did through our free will. (that is consistent with what i learned growing up catholic.)

So If we can please stay consistent with what Christian interpretation we are discussing. It follows than that sex must be able to be done out of love. Since it is a gift from god and naturally good when sin is not involved in it's practice,

Sex before marriage does not violate any of God laws that are outlined in the bible( i have already made a long argument for this). therefor is is possible to keep your body holy and still have sex out of marriage since the act itself is not sinful and premarital sex is not sinful either.

The quote from Genesis is giving us the basis to understand where these desires came from. In the beginning god created us and told us to multiply so we could look after and reign over the earth. he gave us the gift of sex( for it was good) and helped us in the task of keeping our world dominion.

No where in the bible does it say you must only have sex to have children

(and your probably going to throw that story about spilling seed on the ground at me. But that story is about someone not living up to family obligations as it was customary for the brother to help in situations of male infertility back than)

[Hitchkok]

How on earth does having sex affect your fertility, even having lots of it??

I just like to point out that while having sex might adversely affect your fertility, celebacy just point blank eliminates it.

[Thriller]

How on earth does having sex affect your fertility, even having lots of it??

I just like to point out that while having sex might adversely affect your fertility, celebacy just point blank eliminates it.

HA

[Mister Sandman]

[spoiler=]

How on earth does having sex affect your fertility, even having lots of it??

I just like to point out that while having sex might adversely affect your fertility, celebacy just point blank eliminates it.

HA

Lol, childish. Not to mention wrong.
The ability to have kids =! the want to procreate.[/spoiler]

Now if Sandman wanted to stay consistent with his religious beliefs (god i wish he would). He would know that it is our own freewill that turns gods gifts to evil.

Now this is in direct contradiction to another bunch of crap he gave me in a different thread. There he told me that god did not create evil, we did through our free will. (that is consistent with what i learned growing up catholic.)

How is that contradictory. Willpower can override your emotion, however, you give into the darkside and it is sin!

You either have sex out of lust or love.

Lust is an emotion.
Love can be considered not to be an emotion. (Depends on the 'love' you are talking about).

And Catholic i.e The Catholic Church? Right......

So If we can please stay consistent with what Christian interpretation we are discussing. It follows than that sex must be able to be done out of love. Since it is a gift from god and naturally good when sin is not involved in it's practice,

If you want a "Christian Interpretation" you are going to have to ask every single Christian in the world.

Sex itself isnt a sin, it is the heart which takes the practice.
Sex outside of marriage is considered to be sexual misconduct because of that point.

Sex before marriage does not violate any of God laws that are outlined in the bible( i have already made a long argument for this). therefor is is possible to keep your body holy and still have sex out of marriage since the act itself is not sinful and premarital sex is not sinful either.

Apart from the fact it violates a commandment.


הנעת-אל ס בנגת אל ס ףאנת אל ס חצרת אל
:רקש דע ךערב

ותמאו ודבעו ךער תשא דמחת-אל ס ךער תיב דמחת אל
:ךערל רשא לכו ורמחו ורושו

And if you go on to have more than one partner, it violates many laws as stated before.
It makes a mockery of two becoming one flesh.

The quote from Genesis is giving us the basis to understand where these desires came from. In the beginning god created us and told us to multiply so we could look after and reign over the earth. he gave us the gift of sex( for it was good) and helped us in the task of keeping our world dominion.

Is that what you really think?

No where in the bible does it say you must only have sex to have children

Sex is just used for procreation. Sex is to strengthen the bonds between Husband and wife, and is pleasurable.

[Hitchkok]

Apart from the fact it violates a commandment.


הנעת-אל ס בנגת אל ס ףאנת אל ס חצרת אל
:רקש דע ךערב

ותמאו ודבעו ךער תשא דמחת-אל ס ךער תיב דמחת אל
:ךערל רשא לכו ורמחו ורושו

Err....
The commandments you've provided are:
Thou shalt not murder
Tbhou shalt not fornicate
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bare false witness upon your friend
Thou shalt not covet your friend's house, wife, slave, ox, ass, and all that he has.
(makeshift translation. accurate, but not KJ.)
which commandment is violated by having pre-marital sex with an unmarried woman?

[Thriller]

Love is not an emotion..?

Violates which commandment?

Why would i have to ask every christain?

If your just going to post unrelated statements as fact without offering at least little bit of reasoning, than you migtht aswell not even post Sandman.

Oh and don't post in another language without offering a TRANSLATION OR I'LL HAVE TO WARN YOU

[Hitchkok]

Love is not an emotion..?

Violates which commandment?

Why would i have to ask every christain?

If your just going to post unrelated statements as fact without offering at least little bit of reasoning, than you migtht aswell not even post Sandman.

Oh and don't post in another language without offering a TRANSLATION OR I'LL HAVE TO WARN YOU

and it was backwards, too