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WolfeReign wrote:I am sorry but you made not 1 actual point or fact there just a bunch of silly idea's. I mean when the hell did Egypt and kenya become an american colony. I also get the idea that you are under the Impression Osama bin Laden's goal was only the downfall of America if so you would be wrong he wanted to bring about the downfall of western Society and saldy to him your country is included in that America though is the figurehead or the face as you will but I guess i will say you win this debate i cant argue someone who just blabbers out some sad recycled America hate talk if you want to come back with some actual fact's well then i would love to continue debating you on our little points since a good debate is good for the mind plus is fun.

Under the old regime, Egypt received billions of $$$ in US aid, recognised Israel's right to exist, blockaded Palestine's southern border, and generally supported US foreign policy in the region - many Arabs considered them to be America's pet.

You only have to look at what the new populist regime is doing there - opening their Gaza border, recognising Hamas as a legitimate government for Palestine, and urging US to recognise Palestine as a state - all widely supported by their people, and causing considerable concern in Israel.

The first set of circumstances makes them a target for the mujahideen as co-conspirators with the kuffar - the second set brings them much more into the fold of an Islamic Middle East.

America represents many of the worst excesses of Western decadence and interference for a lot of Muslims.

Look at it from their point of view: will Bush and Blair ever be held accountable for the tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians who have died and simply been labelled collateral damage in what is widely recognised as an illegal war? I'm not saying I condone their tactics, but I can understand many of their frustrations and outright anger at Western society....

Clarkey wrote:And yes he was the worlds most wanted man. So what he didn't strike at the Netherlands. You sure no Dutch citizens were killed in any attacks across the globe? A country doesn't have to be attacked to consider someone as a wanted man even if it's on the scale of the worlds most wanted.

His actions could never register to a rational person as 'disproportionate', when compared to the loss of life caused by ill-governance and ignorance. His fight for freedom and the downfall of those who would enslave his lands is similar to the actions of the Libyan terrorists from Benghazi.
So he was driven to inspire people to go to extreme measures to get attention for their cause. Fair enough, loss of life is never a welcome thing. But in a war against a superpower, no rational person can deny the effectiveness of striking at the symbols of your opponent. Empire State Building, or in his case, the WTC and Pentagon as the epitome of 'the Idea America'. So civilians were killed. 'Collateral damage' is a term the Americans invented; extremely fitting to this kind of deaths. It's not the people who are the target, it's the symbol the building stands for. People were in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Kind of like those hundreds of families, who were 'in the wrong place' when Predator and Reaper drones rained Hellfire missiles on their unsuspecting heads.
To claim moral superiority is pretentious, for either side. Neither Al Qaeda nor the USA deserve any praise for the brutal slaughter of innocents. But pinning it all on one man is just pathetic. It is the pattern though, a pattern we will continue to see until someone with the power steps up and says "Enough".

Clarkey wrote:Just to add to that if the Netherlands didn't consider him the worlds most wanted man why did they risk their lives and join troops in Afghanistan?

Those missions (Iraq AND Afghanistan) were never backed by the sane population of the Netherlands. The Dutch Government has aggravated the US in the past (International Criminal Court) and sought to restore/keep that 'bond of unequal friendship'. Our government feels we 'owe' the USA after all we have done for them to pay back for that little stint in '44-'45.

WolfeReign wrote:I am sorry but you made not 1 actual point or fact there just a bunch of silly idea's.

... brainwashed. I cannot expect an American to see the immense flaws in America's foreign policy doctrines. Don't worry, I don't expect you to agree, at all. In fact, I hope you disagree.

WolfeReign wrote:I mean when the hell did Egypt and kenya become an american colony.

Egypt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis
Kenya: http://www.heritage.org/research/report ... with-kenya
I could list a few more countries where Al Qaeda attacked American interests, if you want? And show you how they are de facto American colonies?

WolfeReign wrote:I also get the idea that you are under the Impression Osama bin Laden's goal was only the downfall of America if so you would be wrong he wanted to bring about the downfall of western Society and saldy to him your country is included in that

My country is islamised. We are fighting to undo that situation, brought about by ineffective government and shameless preferential treatment of muslim profiteers.
As for the West.. it has long since lost it's glory. And frankly, I do not see how invading countries and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocents that have nothing to do with 'The West' except for their rich resources would be a 'defence of Western society'. If that is what we need to retain a shadow of our former superiority, then Western society be damned. Become humanist.

WolfeReign wrote:America though is the figurehead or the face as you will

That is what I am afraid of. America thinks it can speak for all of us. Your own population may accept blatant lies and nonsensical reasons to go to war (oh, yes, a few demonstrations are always nice, but we're going to war regardless!), but have you ever considered the REST of what you call 'Western Society' might not be interested in your 'strong man' doctrine?

WolfeReign wrote:but I guess i will say you win this debate i cant argue someone who just blabbers out some sad recycled America hate talk if you want to come back with some actual fact's well then

*chuckles* You are so very eloquent, dear. Well said.

WolfeReign wrote:i would love to continue debating you on our little points since a good debate is good for the mind plus is fun.

It really is, isn't it?


@Repli: Mojo's back.

I would like to add that Iraqi and Afghan war have had not same purposes, aims and reasons. That's the reason why France and Germany refused to go in Iraq, because this war was mainly a vendetta of the Bush family with Saddam Hussein, and, maybe, sideline reasons were the oil and wish to fight a "so called" owner of WMD. In fact, the inspector lied -as he had a grudge against the dictator-, lies regarding the bacterial WMD Hussein was meant to own and produce (entirely understandable to have a grudge against such beep, but his lies had an out of hand consequences).
Regarding the other war, the Afghan war has been supported by more nations because the reasons were more valid. Sure, we can argue all we want that it was or wasn't an "imperial war", but let's not forget that we were asked for help, BEFORE 9/11, and we came there too late (after 9/11). In fact, I would say the US and others did a mistake not to have done this war earlier, such as accept the demand before it went for the worse. That would have been the sane action. Now, governments ignored the demands from someone who was inside the nation, who knew damn well what was going on and what would happen, and see what happened. Ahmad Shah Massoud, the leader of the resistance, was assassinated two days before the 9/11 by fake journalists who likely were part of Al Qaeda, they knew damn well that he was their main problem inside the country, as they probably expected a war would hit them soon for their future bombings -two days later-. We missed the opportunity to have the backing of a skilled and respectable enemy of the talibans. But that, was a point of the Afghan war forgotten apparently, such a shame...

u would ask yr self how come Al Qaeda was build in entire secretly, out of the eyes of CIA , obviously they knew about it but not paying enough attention not untill the organization went operative in several counties. countries like Us, UK etc dont plan their action on daily basis or after a major event happens , ya gotta be sure what happens now has been planets years ago. Al Qaeda just allowed US and company to point a finger to which country they want in midest.

Juliette wrote:

WolfeReign wrote:America though is the figurehead or the face as you will

That is what I am afraid of. America thinks it can speak for all of us. Your own population may accept blatant lies and nonsensical reasons to go to war (oh, yes, a few demonstrations are always nice, but we're going to war regardless!), but have you ever considered the REST of what you call 'Western Society' might not be interested in your 'strong man' doctrine?

To be fair America was a superpower, and some if not most would argue it still is. It happens to have once been a sort of figurehead for the western society and that position has never been challenged. America thinks it can speak for 'all of us' because the hard truth is that it can. No one's going to challenge them and you cannot expect a nation to give up a position like that.

And people complaining about the US committing genocide - wake up. Whether you call it genocide or you call it war, it's happened and it's been happening for a while now. Unless the UN miraculously stops being a complete joke the US will not face any consequences for any of their actions so far and there is no point going on about it. Anyone who says that the US is not as powerful as it once was is just lying to themselves. Look at everything they're getting away with.

This war isn't over, but it is a battle that was won by the US.

Do I personally think that iraq is/was a genocide? Yes. I have stopped dwelling on it though because no one is going to pay for it and no one will be convicted or even accused of war crimes. Hell the UN can't even take proper steps to resolve situations like Uganda.

Speaking of super power, I'd be scared of China if I was you. Sooner or later, they will explode.

Noobert wrote:Speaking of super power, I'd be scared of China if I was you. Sooner or later, they will explode.

*sits on the detonator* Oops.

see what americans can achieve when playstation network is down....

Actually Juliette i do agree with you i do not think the the american military should be in any other countries and if i had my way they would all be pulled back and we would not be invading any other countries unless we were attacked first. I would also stop almost all foreign aid we give i would make america for more of an isolationist country than it currently is. Basically i would make it so that we handle our own issues and the rest of the world does the same. I would also make it clear than america had nothing to do with the joke that is called the UN.

Corran Horne wrote:see what americans can achieve when playstation network is down....

I guess osama put his real address down with his psn account details