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~Zekk~ wrote:I didn't say you were narrow minded, a narrow minded person is someone who looks forward with a limited view. I said you were closed minded, a closed minded person is someone who has come to a conclusion on a subject and refuses to accept anything different regarding that subject.

Mine flaw srry about that but english isnt my first language...

So about closed mindeness...Why am I so closedminded about this?I never said I firmly belive in bing bang.I never said i firmly belive in relative theory etc.
But people invented GOD:First there were many GODs.They were imperfect,well today they are represented as superheroes.There isnt much differnce betwen Superman and Ares is there?Later throu many history changes GODs evolved and in the end we god stuck with GOD as supreme uber GOD,is everywere and is everything and yet anywhere any anything.Well he is 10000 times more beyond,even for our best brain to comprehend...
OK I go with that but he was represented throu history as a grey bearded old man sitting and watching over us.And that is what most people belive in: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:".And any other form of belives esspecially in western world being personal or cult is based on that perception of GOD.He being manlike but perfect etc.
When renesanse came it blew away church out of the way and GOD steped down from his throne.And as we progressed in science so did this GOD evolve.And today after so much time when science uncovered few rocks of mistery this GOD suddenly became something that we cant comprehend,he isnt not old man,he is UBER.But science wont stop and will uncover what we used to think is uncoverable and yet GOD will only become more uncomprehenadble.
My first post was asking why we have this debate?
We have it becouse we all were brainwashed you like it or not.I dont mean CIA brainwashed me but from the start of your awarness you are being bombarded from varius side with GOD,HELL,LOVE,RELIGION,SIN.We all are, even if you are living in a perfect(which is Utopia sadly)secular society there will always be;go the hell,thank god,beutifull angel ETC.Even that leads you to belive that supreme being exist.
But church(and you want it or not we are all influenced by it)took few steps further.It said you were born in a sin hence you If you dont baptise will go to hell.So only month old you are being recruted into something that will alter yours otherwise sain logic(if you can touch it it is there,but with supreme being watching you you will start to wonder if that is there couse you wonder him;wantengly or not).
But "Thank GOD" we have more or less secular schools where teaching is all but about GOD.So normally you start to wonder GOD as they showed it to you and 99% of belivers belive in.So many start to bypass rules of gravity and make their own GOD like you did.You said you have 4 pages long theory about GOD,i bet it has something to do with old school GOD.And even church does it,now when God surounded with angels more and more looks like a fairy tail.But since they have cash they can buy philosphers,scientist and well even your head.
Thats why i think all talk about GOD as people belive in is bull.He was created as a man and one day he will day by a man.
We could have a disgusion about what you think created universe,us,do we die or do we just shutdown and anything else.BUT I refuse to call that energie or whatever GOD couse if we do that we wont evolve any more.
However you want to turn him around I wont see in him nothing more as some UBER beyond icantcomeprehend super advanced being or however you called it.It doesnt matter.
Becouse when you loose all that religion junk that is hanging on GODs name you get nothing else.Its just matter how you call it.
But since there is a little thing called GOD-FEAR-SIN-HELL its better to belive into something that into nothing.And since we dont know whats after death it keeps us warm at night.
You are not born with belive you are thought that.Answer me:

When and why did you start belive in GOD?

Sit down,take a deep breath and loose everything you ever got from religion and tell me what is there left from your GOD.

So you see Im not closed minded about anything else but GOD as you and 99% people belive in.Its all about definiton of GOD and all definitons of GOD leads back to church thus nullify its self.I can exept that someone made us but that deosnt make him GOD..see my point.Its hard to explain this in english but I think its understandable.

About belivers being stupid...I honestly dont want to offend anyone but thats what I think and I think I have that right to express what I think.That guy who is "disproving" Bigbang theory is also saying that BigBang,Darwin and many others are STUPID.He does that with such a high messure of arrogance that Im seruisly worried about our future as secular and logicaly thinking beings.But unlike him I read and listen all the way to the end not just hearing what I want to hear.

~Zekk~ wrote:God is not a ruler, at least not in that sense. We have free will, we use it, and we make a mess of things doing so. You cannot blame God for what we ourselves have done.

I was reffering to Grizzlys GOD.He was born 5000 years ago in some jewish tribe and got world fame some 2000 years ago.

~Zekk~ wrote:Where is the improvement? Time does not exist, it is only an illusion created by humans, out of our desire for structure and order. Time does not apply to God, nor does any other physical limitation.

Time exists...Its a fact.You are born,live,die.Time passes...time can be bend.Time exists all we did is we started to messure it.Messurement of time is the illusion you might be reffering but Time is here to stay.I never said it limits him I just said he got cought in time for us.We can messure how old are we(8000 years)hence GODs age= x+8000 years .It doesnt matter if applies to this reality,he left enough trail in this reality he cant erase that.Well he cant but then we are again at his perection arent we.

~Zekk~ wrote:What and where God is matters completely. You see the existence of God only as stupid because you cannot accept that there is more to the universe than the physical world you see around you. Perhaps seeing is believing, but if that belief were reality, our world would be seriously screwed up by a few mental patients, as well as at least my own imagination, I assure you...

As to the programing bit, that goes back to the point that: How can you prove that this world is even real at all, and not just some alien high school girls wacky dream?

I never said there isnt anything more to universe than physical...But some that call spriitual,some religion,some GOD...spiritual is,was and always will be redrawing from science.Remember big beast in your wardrobe when you were small
I have no problems if we are a dream but than we loose GOD dont we?

~Zekk~ wrote:Because scientists tend to be closed minded people, who think only inside the box. Philosophers tend to be open minded people, who think mostly outside the box. Our world is the box. God exists outside the box. So, who has the better chance of finding him first?

Never mentioned philosphers...but if you say philosophers/theologians is same to as this philosophers=theologians then I will reffer that part of the post only to theologians.If someone is closed minded then they are the ones.
As for scientist being closed minded is infact dangerous thing.It will halt our progress becouse infact many of them cant think outside of box and becouse of their own gain hold down new ideas.
Science doesnt disprove GOD its not thing that it does.But more things science uncover less rooms leaves for him to be.Science isnt aimed at him science just exist and evolves by its own way.But in that process is killing name of GOD.

~Zekk~ wrote:God isn't all about love. That's a mistake on most religionists part. For proof, just look at sodom and gamora, or at least...whats left of them. The examples you gave, were (as I was tought) intended to be tests mostly, in order for those people (namely Abraham in this case) to prove they're faith. But why should God throw love and hate at the same time? If God is perfect, then God has perfect control.

I mentioned Sodoma here:

unseen1 wrote:GOD say genocid

I was being sarcastic here.What also happened to that guy LOT who had so much love for his god...God turned his wife into a stone and after that his two daughters made out with him,so much for GODs appreciation.But before that he offered them to the mob who wanted to do nasty stuff to his angel guests but lucky nothing happened.There is however some other tail in The Book where two womens end wasnt as happy as it was in Lots case.
That was about love/hate stuff at the same time.

~Zekk~ wrote:Why shouldn't science be used to prove God? Science is merely a tool, a device used to explain things. God is the biggest mystery humanity has, so why shouldn't the strongest tool of explanation be used?

You right.And like I mentioned above science isnt here to disprove GOD but it has a rather own life.Never ever was something expalined in science and then called as a proof of GODs inexistance.
GOD isnt the biggest mistery...some want to be it.You could say what comes after dead?What is at the end of the universe?Those kind of questions are valid for science?
GOD as a mistery?Nah couse he will get more and more incomprehendable...Becouse GOD is a belive and like you say it is out of our existance and out of the time etc.Like my green beaver monster is but we arent talking about her are we now?

~Zekk~ wrote:If you believe a big green beaver is God, then you have the right too. It's not stupid. A little strange perhaps, especially by society standards, but not stupid. We have free will, and we will use it to believe in, or do, whatever we want. You said in another thread that the biggest cause of war was disrespect towards other religions--well, your being the most disrespectful, most closed minded person here. Your also being the most aggressive, in saying that religionists are stupid. Thus, I am led to believe it is people like you, who are in your own words "disrespectful", that is the main cause of war. Or am I missing something?

EDIT: Wait, the last bit wasn't about you after all (I went back and checked, you weren't the one in the other thread), but the point kinda still stands...

Like you said everyone has a right to belive in whatever they want but that doesnt do my beaver any more real than it is or not.Nor is Cap.Jean Luc real but if I belive in him then we have stuff to talk about?
Said it many times before and will again Im not being disrespectfull to anyone I just thing what they are doing is not sain...My opinion,I could lie to you and cover under some sort of more appropriatte language but that is what I really think.

unseen1 wrote:

~Zekk~ wrote:I didn't say you were narrow minded, a narrow minded person is someone who looks forward with a limited view. I said you were closed minded, a closed minded person is someone who has come to a conclusion on a subject and refuses to accept anything different regarding that subject.

Mine flaw srry about that but english isnt my first language...

That's fine, I was just explaining it so you (and anyone else) could understand the difference.

unseen1 wrote:So about closed mindeness...Why am I so closedminded about this?I never said I firmly belive in bing bang.I never said i firmly belive in relative theory etc.

That's true, however...

unseen1 wrote:But people invented GOD:First there were many GODs.They were imperfect,well today they are represented as superheroes.There isnt much differnce betwen Superman and Ares is there?Later throu many history changes GODs evolved and in the end we god stuck with GOD as supreme uber GOD,is everywere and is everything and yet anywhere any anything.Well he is 10000 times more beyond,even for our best brain to comprehend...

Right here is where I said your closed minded. You refuse to accept God as anything more then a man made thing. And, I do agree that the religious definition is man made; as religion has become nothing more then a way to control the masses. However, God as a true being does exist, and it existed long before humanity.

unseen1 wrote:OK I go with that but he was represented throu history as a grey bearded old man sitting and watching over us.And that is what most people belive in: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:".And any other form of belives esspecially in western world being personal or cult is based on that perception of GOD.He being manlike but perfect etc.

This is one of my biggest peeves with religion. They say that, "since God made adam first, and since God said he made man in his image, this makes God a man." Men, especially Christian men, only use this as an excuse to dominate women.

But I do not believe this is not true at all. God is not a physical being, thus God cannot be male nor female. I believe to some extent, however, we are somewhat like an image of God. To clarify this: God is a being made up of massive amounts of "life energy", no? God would have to be, to be powerful enough to give consciousness to so many billions (and thats not counting any life in the universe other then us). Now, to put it as simply as I can, I believe our energy was most likely once a small part of God's. We were given a consciousness, free will, and a physical body that trapped us on one of the lowest planes of existence there is. This is my belief, and this is what I believe is meant by us being made in God's image, as well as the meaning behind God being in us all at all times (since, according to my theory, we ARE a small part of God its self).

[Also, there is much more to this theory, and it also has a lot to do with my definition of God; but as I said before I don't have time to explain all of it at once.]

unseen1 wrote:When renesanse came it blew away church out of the way and GOD steped down from his throne.And as we progressed in science so did this GOD evolve.And today after so much time when science uncovered few rocks of mistery this GOD suddenly became something that we cant comprehend,he isnt not old man,he is UBER.But science wont stop and will uncover what we used to think is uncoverable and yet GOD will only become more uncomprehenadble.

God has not evolved at all. Only our understanding of it's existence.

unseen1 wrote:My first post was asking why we have this debate?
We have it becouse we all were brainwashed you like it or not.I dont mean CIA brainwashed me but from the start of your awarness you are being bombarded from varius side with GOD,HELL,LOVE,RELIGION,SIN.We all are, even if you are living in a perfect(which is Utopia sadly)secular society there will always be;go the hell,thank god,beutifull angel ETC.Even that leads you to belive that supreme being exist.
But church(and you want it or not we are all influenced by it)took few steps further.It said you were born in a sin hence you If you dont baptise will go to hell.So only month old you are being recruted into something that will alter yours otherwise sain logic(if you can touch it it is there,but with supreme being watching you you will start to wonder if that is there couse you wonder him;wantengly or not).

I agree to some extent. It has already been said countless times in this thread alone; religion is nothing more then a way to control the masses and keep them happy. That does not prove God does not exist, though. It only means the masses are easily brainwashed.

unseen1 wrote:But "Thank GOD" we have more or less secular schools where teaching is all but about GOD.So normally you start to wonder GOD as they showed it to you and 99% of belivers belive in.So many start to bypass rules of gravity and make their own GOD like you did.You said you have 4 pages long theory about GOD,i bet it has something to do with old school GOD.And even church does it,now when God surounded with angels more and more looks like a fairy tail.But since they have cash they can buy philosphers,scientist and well even your head.
Thats why i think all talk about GOD as people belive in is bull.He was created as a man and one day he will day by a man.

I did not bypass anything, or make my own God. I have spent a lot of time studying, and researching things from both a scientific and spiritual perspective, in order to try and find out what God really is without being biased by religion or science.

I said before, I'm neither religious nor scientist. I'm something that's sort of in between. A rational person seeking rational enlightenment, you could say.

unseen1 wrote:We could have a disgusion about what you think created universe,us,do we die or do we just shutdown and anything else.BUT I refuse to call that energie or whatever GOD couse if we do that we wont evolve any more.
However you want to turn him around I wont see in him nothing more as some UBER beyond icantcomeprehend super advanced being or however you called it.It doesnt matter.

This energy already has many names, across many languages. And God is an advanced being, a being advanced far beyond the physical.

And since they say reality is stranger then fiction, lets use the TV series Stargate SG1 as an example, for a moment. The ancients advanced so far that the physical realm could no longer interest them. Thus, they ascended and found the universe to be much more then the physical realm. I believe this is smiler to what it is like in reality, only God is on the highest plane of existence.

And before you say I'm crazy for using this analogy; No matter what you or anyone else believes, there ARE higher planes. This can even be proven to some degree through physical science. So, why should ascending to these planes through spiritual enlightenment not be possible? (this also somewhat gives a more rational explanation to the existence of heaven and hell, though to understand that more clearly you would have to understand the planes better.)

unseen1 wrote:Becouse when you loose all that religion junk that is hanging on GODs name you get nothing else.Its just matter how you call it.
But since there is a little thing called GOD-FEAR-SIN-HELL its better to belive into something that into nothing.And since we dont know whats after death it keeps us warm at night.

It doesn't keep me warm at night, since according to most religions I'm a horrible sinner that's gonna burn and rot in the lowest levels of Hell.

unseen1 wrote:You are not born with belive you are thought that.Answer me:

When and why did you start belive in GOD?

Sit down,take a deep breath and loose everything you ever got from religion and tell me what is there left from your GOD.

I was raised in a very strict non-denominational Christian environment. This means I was taught that the bible was the manual of life, that if your not baptized in the name of Jesus Christ your not saved, that if your not filled with the holy spirit your not saved, that sin even accidentally committed but be repented for. I've never really followed these beliefs, but none the less...you asked for it.

I have, especially in the last year or so, been researching things from many different perspectives. I've lightly studied many different religions and philosophies, and I've also looked at these as well as my own beliefs from a scientific as well as spiritual perspective. I'm still young, and I still have a lot more to study and learn before I'm satisfied, but I will still carry on my research. Since, as I said before, I do believe God exists--simply as something most people don't know or understand, since they're, as you say, brainwashed.

unseen1 wrote:So you see Im not closed minded about anything else but GOD as you and 99% people belive in.Its all about definiton of GOD and all definitons of GOD leads back to church thus nullify its self.I can exept that someone made us but that deosnt make him GOD..see my point.Its hard to explain this in english but I think its understandable.

All definitions of God do not go back to the church, especially the Christian church. And even if, IF, religion was the first to announce God to the masses (unless we make a time machine and check, we'll never know), that does not at all mean religion invented God.

unseen1 wrote:About belivers being stupid...I honestly dont want to offend anyone but thats what I think and I think I have that right to express what I think.That guy who is "disproving" Bigbang theory is also saying that BigBang,Darwin and many others are STUPID.He does that with such a high messure of arrogance that Im seruisly worried about our future as secular and logicaly thinking beings.But unlike him I read and listen all the way to the end not just hearing what I want to hear.

Don't justify your insult by saying someone else did it, especially since your also saying he is an idiot. Because, does that not also make you an idiot? I don't mean to offend you here, I'm just calling it like I see it...

Also, I'd like to know exactly which program/speaker your talking about.

Oh, and, please don't double post...It make replying a lot harder then it already is...

But, I will answer at least this in this post:

unseen1 wrote:Time exists...Its a fact.You are born,live,die.Time passes...time can be bend.Time exists all we did is we started to messure it.Messurement of time is the illusion you might be reffering but Time is here to stay.I never said it limits him I just said he got cought in time for us.We can messure how old are we(8000 years)hence GODs age= x+8000 years .It doesnt matter if applies to this reality,he left enough trail in this reality he cant erase that.Well he cant but then we are again at his perection arent we.

Allow me to correct myself, then; Time exists here in the physical realm, to a certain degree. It does not, however, exist on the higher planes. At least not as we know it. Thus, "time" is an illusion created out of our desire for order and structure once we were placed on this plane. It may be almost impossible to uncreate it now that we are trapped by it, but I still believe that it is only an illusion that is hard to break free of.

As for time not being bendable; Time is relative. Thus, time is bent and altered all the time. Doing this consciously is almost impossible, but if that part was easy The Matrix "bullet time" effects wouldn't have been done by computer.

I'll answer the rest of the above post later, but please, no more double posting...

Zekk, you say that humans did not create god?

God is/has been and will long be nothing more than an excuse, a cop out. A way of explaining things which we don't understand, or convincing those who doubt us.

A natural phonomenon hundreds of years ago, would be credited as being an "act of god" or a "miracle". Wars were declared because "it was the will of God" etc etc

If you were to take a random human, or several for that matter, from lets say 500 years ago and show them modern technology, they would call it magic, or accredit us as being gods.


As for the matter of time existing is real, Zekk is correct in that it is merely a human concept designed to order and structure our chaotic world, however it is also a dimension, a plane of existence as it where, and it is possible that such a plane exists on other planes of reality.

If u consider the physical plane as a mathmatical plane and "gods plane" as a different one, then unless the plane of time is exactly on our plane, then it is possible that there will be an intersection of time with "gods plane". Meaning god could experience time, and thus age

Note i say "could" and consider, before someone (*cough* Zekk *cough*) says that god doesn't follow the laws of physics and presumably mathmatics

sgt.johnkeel wrote:Zekk, you say that humans did not create god?

God is/has been and will long be nothing more than an excuse, a cop out. A way of explaining things which we don't understand, or convincing those who doubt us.

A natural phonomenon hundreds of years ago, would be credited as being an "act of god" or a "miracle". Wars were declared because "it was the will of God" etc etc

If you were to take a random human, or several for that matter, from lets say 500 years ago and show them modern technology, they would call it magic, or accredit us as being gods.

There is a difference between using something as an excuse, and creating that something.

sgt.johnkeel wrote:As for the matter of time existing is real, Zekk is correct in that it is merely a human concept designed to order and structure our chaotic world, however it is also a dimension, a plane of existence as it where, and it is possible that such a plane exists on other planes of reality.

If u consider the physical plane as a mathmatical plane and "gods plane" as a different one, then unless the plane of time is exactly on our plane, then it is possible that there will be an intersection of time with "gods plane". Meaning god could experience time, and thus age

Note i say "could" and consider, before someone (*cough* Zekk *cough*) says that god doesn't follow the laws of physics and presumably mathmatics

I don't like math, so I'd rather not touch this. Instead, I'll accept that it's possible that time exists on other planes...However, based on what I've already studied and said, there is still no reason to believe it affects God. Since the "God plane" as you've dubbed it is far above and outside the lower ones(ie, this one).

~Zekk~ wrote:
There is a difference between using something as an excuse, and creating that something.

but at some point the excuse was original, thus God was created

sgt.johnkeel wrote:

~Zekk~ wrote:
There is a difference between using something as an excuse, and creating that something.

but at some point the excuse was original, thus God was created

Unless God was the first to use the excuse. Thus, by your logic, God is the origin of God.

But really, if God existed before man kind(which, it did imo), then even if humanity "created God as an excuse for <enter thingy>", then your wrong.

Well, right and wrong...but that never gets anybody anywhere.

Sorry for the double post.
So just to sum this up.
First time exist,not to some degree but to hole degree.It can be bend,it can be messured etc.Time is fact.Maybe its not a fact in some parallel dimension but here in our its fact.But since other dimension arent proven brings us to yet another similiar debate like this.If someone can manipulate time or bypass it that is one more proof of its existance.Well ask any science about time noone will say otherwise.Now you said science is"strongest tool of explanation"so lets stick to it.

About your GOD I dont understand 1 thing...Why you call it a GOD?Why I dont belive in GOD is becouse definition of GOD as it was forced to us is impossible(well you say our view of him evolved,I say he evolved).
We could have long talks about your GOD if you would call it super inteligence,being anything else but GOD.Than you would have rational explanation for all GODs man have ever created,you would have something to talk about some high life force energie that created us.And you say that is possible for us to spiritualy ascend to higher beings thus geting closer to him.So we might start get to know him etc.Maybe even talk with him...why not call him something else rather than GOD?
And if you do call him something else you still have painfull way of proving your theory throu something more than religius stuides etc and pop science.But if your right then your GOD can be proven with enough time for us to work with.Becouse how you describe it,he is just some ultra,uber high everythingicanandcantremembernow being...Why call it a GOD them?
Im guessing becouse he is still coming from old catholic god perhaps?Becouse maybe you still hang on to the old GOD,wanting him to exist.Not maybe in church way but your own private way...Dont want to patronise you but I see no other reason why you want to call It GOD.

Idiot I was reffering is some Mr. dunno his name who has seminars accross US and talks about how science is wrong and The Book is right(I have hidden link into a spoiler since its to long and messes up hole page).Well check it out and youll see why I hate to see science use to prove GOD.

As I see our belive arent that much difirent ,just you call your believe GOD I havent got a name for it but wonder and make theories about same stuff you do and prolly coming to same or similiar conclusions,Just I dont call that GOD...

unseen1 wrote:

~Zekk~ wrote:What and where God is matters completely. You see the existence of God only as stupid because you cannot accept that there is more to the universe than the physical world you see around you. Perhaps seeing is believing, but if that belief were reality, our world would be seriously screwed up by a few mental patients, as well as at least my own imagination, I assure you...

As to the programing bit, that goes back to the point that: How can you prove that this world is even real at all, and not just some alien high school girls wacky dream?

I never said there isnt anything more to universe than physical...But some that call spriitual,some religion,some GOD...spiritual is,was and always will be redrawing from science.Remember big beast in your wardrobe when you were small
I have no problems if we are a dream but than we loose GOD dont we?

I have always said, and always will believe that Magick (as in, the occult, spiritualist kind) is merely a form of science most people refuse to believe in. As people become more open minded, this will be proven eventually.

As to the dream bit, we do not lose God if that is true. Since God would merely be the one dreaming.

And I didn't have a monster in my closet when I was small, I had porn.

unseen1 wrote:

~Zekk~ wrote:Because scientists tend to be closed minded people, who think only inside the box. Philosophers tend to be open minded people, who think mostly outside the box. Our world is the box. God exists outside the box. So, who has the better chance of finding him first?

Never mentioned philosphers...but if you say philosophers/theologians is same to as this philosophers=theologians then I will reffer that part of the post only to theologians.If someone is closed minded then they are the ones.
As for scientist being closed minded is infact dangerous thing.It will halt our progress becouse infact many of them cant think outside of box and becouse of their own gain hold down new ideas.
Science doesnt disprove GOD its not thing that it does.But more things science uncover less rooms leaves for him to be.Science isnt aimed at him science just exist and evolves by its own way.But in that process is killing name of GOD.

I agree that science is leaving less room for God to exist, but that is because they are only focusing on the physical. As I've already said, God is not physical. And as I also said above, magick to a certain degree is a form of science that is currently highly neglected. When this other form of science is accepted and studied properly (by rational people, instead of by wacko religionists [not to say all "magicians" are wacko religionists, most "true" magicians are actually quite the opposite ]) then "spiritual" things will come into a new light, and God, as well as other "spiritual beings" (positive and negative) will come to be accepted as more then myth. Since, if there are other planes, it is possible the life on these other planes have been mistaken for monsters and other myths and legends through out history. And of course, we can't forget the little Grey aliens that people say are running around in modern times...They have to come from somewhere, be it another plane or another planet, no?

unseen1 wrote:

~Zekk~ wrote:God isn't all about love. That's a mistake on most religionists part. For proof, just look at sodom and gamora, or at least...whats left of them. The examples you gave, were (as I was tought) intended to be tests mostly, in order for those people (namely Abraham in this case) to prove they're faith. But why should God throw love and hate at the same time? If God is perfect, then God has perfect control.

I mentioned Sodoma here:

unseen1 wrote:GOD say genocid

I was being sarcastic here.What also happened to that guy LOT who had so much love for his god...God turned his wife into a stone and after that his two daughters made out with him,so much for GODs appreciation.But before that he offered them to the mob who wanted to do nasty stuff to his angel guests but lucky nothing happened.There is however some other tail in The Book where two womens end wasnt as happy as it was in Lots case.
That was about love/hate stuff at the same time.

I see, and I agree now. This is also one of the reasons I don't follow Christianity, even though I was raised in it. They do not serve God as I believe God exists, they follow a slave master who wants they're blind obedience and servitude.

No offense to any Christians here, your free to believe what you will, but I simply don't believe God is a slave master.

unseen1 wrote:

~Zekk~ wrote:Why shouldn't science be used to prove God? Science is merely a tool, a device used to explain things. God is the biggest mystery humanity has, so why shouldn't the strongest tool of explanation be used?

You right.And like I mentioned above science isnt here to disprove GOD but it has a rather own life.Never ever was something expalined in science and then called as a proof of GODs inexistance.
GOD isnt the biggest mistery...some want to be it.You could say what comes after dead?What is at the end of the universe?Those kind of questions are valid for science?
GOD as a mistery?Nah couse he will get more and more incomprehendable...Becouse GOD is a belive and like you say it is out of our existance and out of the time etc.Like my green beaver monster is but we arent talking about her are we now?

I believe God will come to be proven eventually, through rational scientific explanation. It will be a while, and right now I'm not even sure if our race will last long enough to advance that far, but I believe science will eventually grow to accept many things. Tis only a matter of time, illusionary as that may be...

unseen1 wrote:Sorry for the double post.
So just to sum this up.
First time exist,not to some degree but to hole degree.It can be bend,it can be messured etc.Time is fact.Maybe its not a fact in some parallel dimension but here in our its fact.But since other dimension arent proven brings us to yet another similiar debate like this.If someone can manipulate time or bypass it that is one more proof of its existance.Well ask any science about time noone will say otherwise.Now you said science is"strongest tool of explanation"so lets stick to it.

Fine, I'll leave it at this for now. I'm not enough of a scientist to explain it in a way people can understand, so I'd rather not try only to make the confusion worse.. :/

unseen1 wrote:About your GOD I dont understand 1 thing...Why you call it a GOD?Why I dont belive in GOD is becouse definition of GOD as it was forced to us is impossible(well you say our view of him evolved,I say he evolved).
We could have long talks about your GOD if you would call it super inteligence,being anything else but GOD.Than you would have rational explanation for all GODs man have ever created,you would have something to talk about some high life force energie that created us.And you say that is possible for us to spiritualy ascend to higher beings thus geting closer to him.So we might start get to know him etc.Maybe even talk with him...why not call him something else rather than GOD?
And if you do call him something else you still have painfull way of proving your theory throu something more than religius stuides etc and pop science.But if your right then your GOD can be proven with enough time for us to work with.Becouse how you describe it,he is just some ultra,uber high everythingicanandcantremembernow being...Why call it a GOD them?
Im guessing becouse he is still coming from old catholic god perhaps?Becouse maybe you still hang on to the old GOD,wanting him to exist.Not maybe in church way but your own private way...Dont want to patronise you but I see no other reason why you want to call It GOD.

What other name (out of the English language) would fit right now? It has nothing to do with catholic, nor any other denomination or religion. I call the being I see as our creator God because I simply have no other name to call it. I mean, seriously, if "the almighty creator" that we are discussing right now does not qualify as a God, then what does?

unseen1 wrote:Idiot I was reffering is some Mr. dunno his name who has seminars accross US and talks about how science is wrong and The Book is right(I have hidden link into a spoiler since its to long and messes up hole page).Well check it out and youll see why I hate to see science use to prove GOD.

Hm, I remember that link... I'll go back and read it.

unseen1 wrote:As I see our belive arent that much difirent ,just you call your believe GOD I havent got a name for it but wonder and make theories about same stuff you do and prolly coming to same or similiar conclusions,Just I dont call that GOD...

As I said above, I can think of no other name in the English language that fits any better then "God". We can consider it a temporary tittle, until we learn its true name, or find something else to call it. But I simply have nothing better that fits quite so well.

Just out of curiosity. Since god created or was born with the univrse(not arguing about this point) and since there is M theory (Infinite parallel universes) does that mean to every universe there is a slightly altered form of god?

Maybe, or it could mean God is above all universes and each one is like a pet ant farm to s/he/it.

Or something like that, anyway...

Ok but in that case in at least one universe there is no god. or vice versa there is one god in only one universe. But I don't think we will ever get to find that point out.

You didn't get what I said, did you?

I understood but just ignoring that point and going back to the thing on Mtheory. It state that in 1 universe anything that can happen will happen so hence my previous statement.

I'm not trying to drag the Religion Forum into the gutter, I'm very serious

All that we see: heaven, the sun, the moon, stars, clouds, the earth on which we live, the air we breathe, the earth on which we live,Yes indeed, the world is the creation of God! When we see God's world then we understand how beautifully and wisely it was made.The world is marvelous in its beauty, and all that is in it is full of life.Man,and woman alone lives everywhere on the earth and has dominion over everything. God granted us a reason and an immortal soul. He gave us a special and great purpose: to know God,thru Jesus Christ to be like Him, that is, to become constantly better and inherit eternal life.God created the entire world for the life and benefit of people, for each of us. God’s love for us is infinite!
In Jeremiah 29:11-14 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future
John 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
In John 3:16 This tells us if that we belive in him that we must also keep his teachings within us to be complete and obedient to god,
John 6:35 (KJV)
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
What this means The Bread of Life is the spiritual food needed by man. Without the bread of life man cannot live spiritually. Just as physically man needs to eat in order to live, the bread of life gives nourishment for the soul. Unless one eats from the bread of live he faces eternal death.
Jesus had to shed His blood and die. “For the life of the flesh is in the blood”(Lev. 17:11).“without shedding of blood is no remission [pardon]” (Hebrews 9:22). “ . . . God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).
God said my sins and your sins were laid upon Jesus and He died in our place. He became our substitute.Therefore,unless you believe on Jesus Who died in your place, you will spend eternity in Hell.By repenting,lift your heart to God in prayer ask for forgiveness.Accept him as your Savior Just take God at His word and claim His salvation by faith.Believe,and you will be saved,
“Whosoever therefore shall confess [testify of] Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 10:32).
So you ask Does God exist?YES
You can not serve two GODS (God/Satan)
Two natures beat within you
The one is cursed, the other is blessed.
The one I love, the other I hate.
The one I feed will dominate!
"The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life" (Gal. 6:8).
So you ask Does God exist?YES
I want the life that GOD wants me to have
What happens now is up to you.....
...You can follow the path, and see how far it goes, or wake up tomorrow with that same empty feeling inside...
But for me and my house will serve the lord.
And GOD is the Holy Spirit which is the third person of ,the Holy Spirit is equal with God the Father and with God the Son.