Let's not forget...[Europe only]

[Cole]

Could I know argument(s) from both people who voted no?
Being against EU is something that always astonish me..we are in 21st century for cryin' out loud!

I'm a strong EU supporter, and want to know what are "reasons" against EU..always good to know reasons from your adversaries (or whatever is the correct spelling).

What reasons do you have for supporting the EU? And "this is the 21st century!" is a BS reason.

The days of self centered nations living excluded from each others are gone...protectionist era from 1930s is gone as well. Europe is a continent with much history in common. Alliances, wars, common interests, many things happend in last centuries in Europe. We share a common culture (not exactly, but we have common history & religion, bit like Muslim countries have to each others). Being divided and self centered is something that lasted long enough to be forgotten (not meaning to forget history, but more to stop carrying on same path) and left aside. Fears between countries, plots, xenophobism and mutual hates led to wars we all know of. World Wars to name a few. European Union is here to unite countries that had some similarity, but because of nationalisms and self centering, it caused wars and confrontations instead of common growth. Europe can only be strong by being united, if we stay divided, we will be dominated by whatever superpower takes the lead. Europe divided is almost nothing. Europe united has a stance to voice itself in this world facing China, Russia and even Japan/USA.
Of course USA doesn't see EU as a good thing (well, depends what kind of people we talk about..not everyone is the same, but when one gets supremacy in political world affairs tends to not appreciate any competitor), because we are competitors to them, and when one has control on things, it doesn't want to share it. And if it has to, will try to deny it by falacies and attempts at discredit. (worst case scenario)
Common money helps European countries to survive and resist during good and bad times. Just have to see how Iceland and UK are suffering from recession.
Unlike what the person quoted tried to say about an obsolete and fractionned 21st century (decreasing European's continent importance in world mechanics in favour of we know who), 21st century is INDEED the end of divisions, useless territories wars and mutual bashing that lead to nowhere but further more wars caused by revenge from this and power seking for that.

Sorry I was bit lazy and tired (1am), thus my *very* short post (for this subject).
Don't worry, you will get your badass 2k words post soon!


So whoever said no, speak now why you said no, and I (or whoever supports EU) will be pleased to show you that Europe divided < EU.

[Fear Of The Duck]

Could I know argument(s) from both people who voted no?
Being against EU is something that always astonish me..we are in 21st century for cryin' out loud!

I'm a strong EU supporter, and want to know what are "reasons" against EU..always good to know reasons from your adversaries (or whatever is the correct spelling).

What reasons do you have for supporting the EU? And "this is the 21st century!" is a BS reason.

The days of self centered nations living excluded from each others are gone...protectionist era from 1930s is gone as well.
o really? then, for example, why did the brits have to abandon their favourable ways of dealing with other commonwealth members that are outside the uesr (union of european socialist republics) before joining the uesr? uesr is supposed to ba a one big country even more protectionist than in 1930, just not democratic. this state of affairs has to change. also: i want my adopted sisters here. if there's no protectionism why can't they come over and live in here?
then why Europe is a continent with much history in common. Alliances, wars, common interests, many things happend in last centuries in Europe. We share a common culture (not exactly, but we have common history & religion, bit like Muslim countries have to each others). Being divided and self centered is something that lasted long enough to be forgotten (not meaning to forget history, but more to stop carrying on same path) and left aside. Fears between countries, plots, xenophobism and mutual hates led to wars we all know of. World Wars to name a few. European Union is here to unite countries that had some similarity, but because of nationalisms and self centering, it caused wars and confrontations instead of common growth.
correction: war will still be taking place in europe according to the war power laws (http://netwar.wordpress.com/2007/08/22/ ... ws-of-war/) just this time they'll be civil wars. that's how the world work. nothing can change it.
Europe can only be strong by being united, if we stay divided, we will be dominated by whatever superpower takes the lead. Europe divided is almost nothing.
consider this: sacrum romanum imperium was wery strong even though (or actually BECAUSE) it was in divided. shortly after unification of germany under bismarck we had two world wars wher germans playd important roles.
Europe united has a stance to voice itself in this world facing China, Russia and even Japan/USA.
usa experienced the biggest growth when it was just a loose confederation (don't confuse with csa here). as the central govt grew in power the country went to the dogs.
Of course USA doesn't see EU as a good thing (well, depends what kind of people we talk about..not everyone is the same, but when one gets supremacy in political world affairs tends to not appreciate any competitor), because we are competitors to them, and when one has control on things, it doesn't want to share it. And if it has to, will try to deny it by falacies and attempts at discredit. (worst case scenario)
actually, the us govts were mostly in favour of the eusr. get your facts right.
Common money helps European countries to survive and resist during good and bad times. Just have to see how Iceland and UK are suffering from recession.
ireland is also suffering. common currency creates greater risk. if something goes wrong with if we're all screwed (unless we quickly put our savings into other currency)
Unlike what the person quoted tried to say about an obsolete and fractionned 21st century (decreasing European's continent importance in world mechanics in favour of we know who) i dont. who?, 21st century is INDEED the end of divisions, useless territories wars and mutual bashing that lead to nowhere but further more wars caused by revenge from this and power seking for that. since the human affairs create a society as a self organising system in a crytical state there'll be never end to divisions. there might be less of them from time to time, but it's just temporary

Sorry I was bit lazy and tired (1am), thus my *very* short post (for this subject). you should be in bed by 10pm!!
Don't worry, you will get your badass 2k words post soon!
d'you really think somebody here will read 2k word posts?


So whoever said no, speak now why you said no, and I (or whoever supports EU) will be pleased to show you that Europe divided < EU.

to sum things up: united: yes (no. not manchester) but only as a confederacy of independent states.

on a side note: we have XV century. it's now 1430 AH

[Kit-Fox]

Actually thanks to our independant currency the UK with weather the worldwide rescession much better than the Euro zone which will suffer the effects of multiple country economies ruining the recovery as each gov tries its best for its own local zone with respect to jobs etc.

That said the UK will appear to be worse off in the short term yes as we dont have the kind of buffer the Euro Zone has (but then I'd like to see any single european country provide that kind of buffer, it wouldnt be possible)

[Kit-Fox]

You know its not often I'm glad Jacks about, in fact its extremely rare. But at least he has a better view on the idea of a fully integrated EU than most I've seen in this thread

[Cole]

The days of self centered nations living excluded from each others are gone...

So living alone = self centered and self centered = evil. Gotcha.

This means that everyone not living in a communal home is evil, and even those living in communal homes because they are separated from other communal homes.
Oh, the nice metaphore..I never said it was evil. I just meant that we have seen where self-centered nations led...rising of nationalisms didn't really help to prevent second world war isn't it?

Europe is a continent with much history in common. Alliances, wars, common interests, many things happend in last centuries in Europe. We share a common culture (not exactly, but we have common history & religion, bit like Muslim countries have to each others).

Great, so sit around a camp fire and sing kumbaya. But that's not a reason to live in one big house, having orgies.
I would like to know what you refer to as "orgies" in your metaphor...and anyway, not my fault if you don't see the meaning of sharing common past, and wishing to work together based on your similarities. Your problem, not mine!

Being divided and self centered is something that lasted long enough to be forgotten (not meaning to forget history, but more to stop carrying on same path) and left aside.

And I spose you'll always be living with your immediate family in one huge house, sharing ALL the bills and ALL the income. Right.
States and people are different. Unless of course, you talk about dictatorships, where leader is everything. Fortunately, Europe isn't like this, and unless family you think about, is a bunch of hardcore schizophrenic people, it isn't an accurate metaphor!

Of course USA doesn't see EU as a good thing

Like Corran, I do not see globalism as a good thing. Just look what happened with the economy these last couple years.
Are you sure you are American?

because we are competitors to them, and when one has control on things, it doesn't want to share it.

I'm not sure there is a single intelligent American worried about Europe taking over America's spot as the dominant superpower. Especially not when the EU's "president" is a Frenchman.

As long as EU will not speak as one and act as one, EU won't be fighting for supremacy, for now. Firstly, now it's a Czech president, you are a bit late. And also, your outdated prejudices about french people just show you don't know much about elemental things, not going to waste my time more about such petty things.

Unlike what the person quoted tried to say about an obsolete and fractionned 21st century (decreasing European's continent importance in world mechanics in favour of we know who), 21st century is INDEED the end of divisions, useless territories wars and mutual bashing that lead to nowhere but further more wars caused by revenge from this and power seking for that.

If you're talking about me saying that using the date as an excuse for whatever you are pushing is BS, well, I've got news for you. It IS BS.

Trying to use "it's the 21st century" as an argument just makes you another retarded sheep.

The use of aggressive antagonism can be caused by several reasons, such as boredom of whatever your adversary says (loosing patience), or because you try to do a diversion to avoid the debate. Anyway, by this limited kind of thinking, we would still be denying progress, and we wouldn't be very much far by now. But oh well, if that's being retarded sheep to consider accomplishing progress in a new century, to move to something else, than where we are now, I don't want to know what can qualifies the opposite side!
If I get it well, for you it's not a problem that people in 21st century still don't have electricity in their houses (I mean no difference between having it in early 20th than having it right now), because time is irrevelant (lol)?



@ what Kit-Fox said...yes always ask to get an accurate view on the place (example follows), ask someone who never went to Canada and doesn't care about it, how is said country like, rather than someone who's living there for thirty years and is involved in his/her country life...
I wouldn't, you do, it's your choice!

[Kit-Fox]

You know you keep bringing up this shared history and shared values etc that all the european nations supposedly have in common.

just one thing, how much history do you know?

Casue if you knew even just a little you'd know that the shared history & values is simply having wars with each other every 10 years or so. Its really not something you want to base a united Europe on

[Cole]

You know you keep bringing up this shared history and shared values etc that all the european nations supposedly have in common.

just one thing, how much history do you know?

Casue if you knew even just a little you'd know that the shared history & values is simply having wars with each other every 10 years or so. Its really not something you want to base a united Europe on

I know pretty much about past thank you very much. Wars such as Augsburg league war, Napoleon wars, war of seven years, war for succession of Austria etc etc...

You just don't see what it also implies..

It's like people who should have been friends, but because of personal and self-centered interests, they decided to fight each others. Then they seen it was useless to fight each others and no positive outcome came from it, thus decided to unite for a better result and become friends. Satisfied?

[Fear Of The Duck]

ok. let's stop babbling and do something..

http://libertas.eu/en/europeday2009/

[Cole]

According to EU profiler, for Ireland parties compared to my positions, I'm closer to Fine Gael, Fianna Fail..and Labour Party.
Farest being Socialist Party (I'm supposing that Socialist Party in Ireland isn't Socialist Party from France, which seems to be closer to Labour Party)

[Desert Ghost]

Radical Right To Parliament!

There's already enough of them...(there shouldn't be any >_<)
And also enough of their bs about holocaust being a minor detail in history, like if attempt of extermination of Jews was close to nothing.

HMMMM

[Cole]

Radical Right To Parliament!

There's already enough of them...(there shouldn't be any >_<)
And also enough of their bs about holocaust being a minor detail in history, like if attempt of extermination of Jews was close to nothing.

HMMMM

Yes?

I'm against radical right (and left...) in office, because only so called progress they can achieve is a disbanding/exploding of EU...
So whoever supports them to be in office are AGAINST EU!! (just listen to far right/left leaders and how they feel about EU!)

And yes I know what I'm talking about, I'm informing myself for EU elections to be sure to know all facts, which I'm tending towards.

And yes what I said comes +/- from French far right leader...who has a sit in European Parliament. It's not lies, it's true.

[Fear Of The Duck]

According to EU profiler, for Ireland parties compared to my positions, I'm closer to Fine Gael, Fianna Fail..and Labour Party.
Farest being Socialist Party (I'm supposing that Socialist Party in Ireland isn't Socialist Party from France, which seems to be closer to Labour Party)

labour and fine gael are also socialist. as is fianna fail (fail. LOL) just to lesser extent.

i'm still saying pops has a skewed idea about radical right. how can radical right be against eu? (i mean against the general idea of sorta united europe, cos it will deffo be against uesr. I AM RADICAL RIGHT)

and btw:
http://libertas.eu/en/europeday2009/

[Cole]

According to EU profiler, for Ireland parties compared to my positions, I'm closer to Fine Gael, Fianna Fail..and Labour Party.
Farest being Socialist Party (I'm supposing that Socialist Party in Ireland isn't Socialist Party from France, which seems to be closer to Labour Party)

labour and fine gael are also socialist. as is fianna fail (fail. LOL) just to lesser extent.

i'm still saying pops has a skewed idea about radical right. how can radical right be against eu? (i mean against the general idea of sorta united europe, cos it will deffo be against uesr. I AM RADICAL RIGHT)

They are centrist parties (not labour party one). Just have a look at EU profiler, FG and FF are on the right of the centre limit of left/right.
You have a subjective view of parties, otherwise you wouldn't say centre-right parties are socialists. Socialists are mostly left wing, more or less far left depending on country.

Far right parties are against EU. It's NOT me who says so, it's themselves!
So go tell whatever you think to THEM, not to ME. I am not able to change far right leaders' opinion, you know!

Example: UK independance party, on bottom for EU support, and one of most in right side according to EU profiler. Partido Popular Monarquico from Portugal, most right wing party according to EU profiler, 60% against EU according to their position on the graphic.
Unione democratica di centro/Union démocratique du centre: right wing nationalist swiss party, economically liberal. 100% against EU.
Finally, Die Republikaner, from Germany, which funder according to wiki is a former Waffen-SS member, is also fully against EU.
Should I carry on?

[Fear Of The Duck]

They are centrist parties (not labour party one). Just have a look at EU profiler, FG and FF are on the right of the centre limit of left/right.
means some of their ideas are socialist. that's enough.

You have a subjective view of parties, otherwise you wouldn't say centre-right parties are socialists.
they are. just less socialist than the centre-left.

Socialists are mostly left wing, more or less far left depending on country.
pure socialists. not everyone is pure socialist. but ok. for the sake of argument i will agree with you. just from now on assume i don't like centrists.

Far right parties are against EU. It's NOT me who says so, it's themselves!
are they far right cos they're far right or just cos they call themselves as such? ask a simple questions:
1. what's their idea about the role of the goverment?
2. what's their view on the public sector?

So go tell whatever you think to THEM, not to ME. I am not able to change far right leaders' opinion, you know!
the sad thing is we can't change their opinion about what's really far right... still the fact they say their far right doesn't mean they are (or i'll start calling myself a socialist)

Example: UK independance party, on bottom for EU support, and one of most in right side according to EU profiler.
yes. they say they're libertarian. they are against what i call uesr, but not against the free-trade union:

The UK Independence Party is committed to withdrawing Britain from the European Union. As the debate on the Lisbon Treaty has now made clear, the EU agenda is complete political union with all the main functions of national government taken over by the bureaucratic institutions of Brussels.
UKIP would replace Britain's membership of the European Union with the kind of agreements on free trade and co-operation that we thought we had signed up to when we first joined what was then called the European Economic Community...

[Cole]

Out of parties talks for a little bit in this post, I'm curious to know who is the other person who voted no in the poll. Come on, show your views openly!
It's a semi debate topic, and if you vote no or other kind of EU, you are expected to post as well! (if you vote yes, it's up to you, but preferable to post to show interested people your views etc)