Israel... what do you think?

[[KMA]Avenger]

you really do have tunnel vision dont you?!


regardless, i'll tell you why i have made it a point of contention and also tell you why i wont answer your questions...


you in your opening post and the title of this thread have asked what we think of Israel, my response to that opening question is that, i (and MANY others) think Israel is a terrorist state which is above international law and guilty of war crimes to both its friends and enemies, and also guilty of genocide as is defined.
to back up my claim Israel is guilty of war crimes and terrorism i gave you proof they have attacked their allies, and continue to spy on their own allies , even after being exposed by the mainstream media and caught red handed, more times than can be counted.
i gave you ample proof that the attack on the Liberty was deliberate and all i get from you is "the tribunal found it to be a mistake", yeah and pigs fly!

as for the questions you want answers to, you wont get a reply from me till you acknowledge it was no mistake, simply put, i dismiss all claims it was a mistake because, 1, you dont attack without clear markings on your ships and aircraft, that's a war crime.
2, the torpedo boats strafed the lifeboats and the crew inside them while in international waters...that's a war crime right there, even if the attack was a mistake you cant get away from that fact!
3, (since you wont look for yourself), there is no way in hell it was a mistake because the Israelis jammed the American frequency's, AND furthermore, the Egyptians didn't use those frequency's.
4, lets not forget the fact there is audio evidence of LBJ and Mcnamara, saying they want the ship sunk and no help was to be sent to the Liberty...there's more but there's little point in me showing you anything else because you REALLY are blind to your nations crimes...aren't you?

and just for the record, i dont solely accuse Israel of all these things, i also accuse the US and UK Govts as well.

[Hitchkok]

you really do have tunnel vision dont you?!

you call it tunnel vision, i call it keeping focused.

regardless, i'll tell you why i have made it a point of contention and also tell you why i wont answer your questions...


you in your opening post and the title of this thread have asked what we think of Israel, my response to that opening question is that, i (and MANY others) think Israel is a terrorist state which is above international law and guilty of war crimes to both its friends and enemies, and also guilty of genocide as is defined.

ummm, no you didn't.
let's review:

what you said in your first post is that Israel (i believe you mean the land of Israel, not the state of Israel) is not held by it's rightful owners (failing to provide prove of that), and that it is guilty of war crimes and genocide (failing to provide either definition or prove for that either).
i then asked you to give proof for either.
for the first, you gave a historiclly irrelevent statement, and for the second you stated you could, but again, failed to. you, of course, did not define genocide
so i gave a definition for genocide, taken out of dictionary.com:
"the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group."
i stand by my statement this isn't happening. and i'll be happy to host you in a visit to Israel, and take you to the Gaza strip and the west bank to see for yourself.
of course, this was done only after you babbled some nonsense about setting the Israely government and the palestinian one bare handed at each other throats.
I then brought you an historical account of the jewish claim to the land of Israel, and concluded with the statement that "Israel as a state is a fact. there is NO legal instrument by which to disperse a member of the UN. the only means is war. and unless youre advocating that, you have to accept the state of israel.", and therefore the history is quite irrelevent
you have accepted that, and went on to cite some extremists Jews that state the state of Israel is a sin against god.
i explained that this was an extremists view, not based on the scripture, but on interpretation, and concluded with:
"Israel is a secular state. it is a democracy, not a theocracy", and therfore "the halacha view on the state of Israel is i-material".
it was only at this point that you brought the USS liberty point. which, again is irelevent. what do you wish to prove by that? that Israel is a terrorist state? based on one attack 30 years ago? that was during a war (in which, by the way, Israel was attacked by 3 armies, and an Iraqy expedition force)? an attack that (again), both governments acknowledges as a mistake? what does it has to do with your first post?

what is my point?
my point is that all you did, consistently is give unbased (and sometimes utterly ludicrus (Israel is owned by the Rotschilds??? come on...)) statement.

to back up my claim Israel is guilty of war crimes and terrorism i gave you proof they have attacked their allies, and continue to spy on their own allies , even after being exposed by the mainstream media and caught red handed, more times than can be counted.
i gave you ample proof that the attack on the Liberty was deliberate and all i get from you is "the tribunal found it to be a mistake", yeah and pigs fly!

as for the questions you want answers to, you wont get a reply from me till you acknowledge it was no mistake, simply put, i dismiss all claims it was a mistake because, 1, you dont attack without clear markings on your ships and aircraft, that's a war crime.
2, the torpedo boats strafed the lifeboats and the crew inside them while in international waters...that's a war crime right there, even if the attack was a mistake you cant get away from that fact!
3, (since you wont look for yourself), there is no way in hell it was a mistake because the Israelis jammed the American frequency's, AND furthermore, the Egyptians didn't use those frequency's.
4, lets not forget the fact there is audio evidence of LBJ and Mcnamara, saying they want the ship sunk and no help was to be sent to the Liberty...there's more but there's little point in me showing you anything else because you REALLY are blind to your nations crimes...aren't you?

and just for the record, i dont solely accuse Israel of all these things, i also accuse the US and UK Govts as well.

i'll say it again

again, you are taking a negligible and irrelevent part that i don't really see what has to do with the subject on hand, and making it a pivot of the entire discussion.

the USS liberty is not relevent to this thread.
both governmental inquiries concluded it was a mistake. i explained to you how this mistake could have happened.
again: the USS liberty is not relevent to this thread.
to put it simply, you might as well have said "why should i answer your question as long as apples are not oranges?"

now, please answer my question, or atleast explain why do you evade it.
or don't. but don't give irelevent justifications.[/quote]

[Mordack]

The rightful owners of the land are Hebrew and that land is much larger than just Israel.

Rightful according to what, though?

Presentations of the Arab-Israeli conflict from either side often stress elements of ancient history. The Jewish camp cite verses from the Torah, and other scripture, whilst the Palestinians and Arabs cite similar statements from their own religious writings. Everybody has resorted to religious imagery and historical motifs in what is essentially a dispute over land between two competing strands of nationalism; both of which are one hundred percent certain of the validity of their claims. I wonder why you think one is 'right' but not the other.

I believe the account that cannot be explained or explained away.

And thusly affirming my point.

[jedi~tank]

I missed your point. The account in the Torah (1st 5 books of the bible) as well as the entire old testament, science and archeology have proven it already. Wether one chooses to believ it or not is personal preference but personal preference does not change the facts. The original title holder to the land is God almighty, he gave it to the hebrews..later Abraham has a son named Ishmael, and another named Isaac. The one son he promised and thusly gave land a, the other he promised and thusly gave land b..both sons recieved thier portion of what God alloted to them..but the stckler is this..one son was given the blessing of God while the other was not..why? ask God..so herein lies the CONFLICT..the sons of Ismael and the sons of Isaac..it has not to do with the LAND that is Israel..it has to do with to whom the blessing of God was given..now for non spiritual people and for those that do not believ in such a thing..ask yourself this question..how can a people thrive so in a country barley the size of Virginia surrounded by so many that would see them exterminated? Blessing or not, you investigate on your own, I have and am satisfied that I cannot explain it nor fully comprehend it but I believ it thus and so.

[Sir Balor]

i saw this while looking round and had to be a voice of reason, or at least not ignorance.

so lets forget religion and past and look at the last century, palestine was sitting pretty, sure they were part of the ottoman empire but it wasnt to bad for them. but britain then conquered them during the first world war and it became the british mandate of palastine. when this expired in 1948 palastine gets thrown into chaos as the jewish population begin murdering thousands of palastines and through military coup de tate(sp?) gained power over the country, much of the east became jordan so the palastines lost more land. if this had taken place at any other time europe would have marched in their and backhanded israel and gradually given power back to palastine but at the time there were no resources, and once israel gained a stranglehold america with its growing jewish influence made a political stand against any aid to palastine.

now lets tke it to modern day, both sides are negotiating for peace, the violence has died down, but the israeli government has continually taken back pedals on promises they have made. while they are keeping negotiations going for as long as they can they are building houses on land that in previous mandates would be palastine land thus increasing their borders.

now looking at the facts theirs only one way this debate can go

[Hitchkok]

i saw this while looking round and had to be a voice of reason, or at least not ignorance.

so lets forget religion and past and look at the last century, palestine was sitting pretty, sure they were part of the ottoman empire but it wasnt to bad for them. but britain then conquered them during the first world war and it became the british mandate of palastine. when this expired in 1948 palastine gets thrown into chaos as the jewish population begin murdering thousands of palastines and through military coup de tate(sp?) gained power over the country, much of the east became jordan so the palastines lost more land. if this had taken place at any other time europe would have marched in their and backhanded israel and gradually given power back to palastine but at the time there were no resources, and once israel gained a stranglehold america with its growing jewish influence made a political stand against any aid to palastine.

now lets tke it to modern day, both sides are negotiating for peace, the violence has died down, but the israeli government has continually taken back pedals on promises they have made. while they are keeping negotiations going for as long as they can they are building houses on land that in previous mandates would be palastine land thus increasing their borders.

now looking at the facts theirs only one way this debate can go

?????????????
voice of reason?
facts?

here are the facts:
first of all, the kingdom of Jordan became an independent state in 1946, and the mandate expired in 1948.
during the mandate, jewish civilians were subject to attacks by arab militias.

when the mandate expired, Israel proclaimed independence at the borders known as the partition plan and accepted by the UN.
The one hour old state was attacked by FIVE states: Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, an expedition force from Iraq. joining the party were local and non local militias.
had this attack not happened, the borders of the state of Israel would be, to this day, the partition plan's borders.
Israel defended itself against this attack. murdering thousands of arabs? this is a plain and simple LIE.

when the war of independence ended, the borders of israel (which are accepted worldwide as Israeli territories), excluded the Gaza strip and what is now known as the "occupied territories" in the west bank.
i've said it before in this thread, and i'll say it again: the gaza strip was held by Egypt, and the west bank by Jordan. BOTH did not grant any form of independence to the "palestinian people".
in 1967, during the six day wars, Israel conquered those territories. again, not from the "palestinian people", but from two sovereign states (whice are now at peace with Israel, by the way), Egypt and Jordan.
during peace negotiation with Egypt, Israel propoused to renounce Gaza. Egypt refused to take it back. Jordan, too, has made no claims to the west bank during it's peace negotiation with Israel, and makes no such claims now.

now, you may have noticed that i put commas around the words "Palestinian people". this is because, and this is crucial to understand, that the first reference to the Palestinian as a people and a nationality, was in 1968. only then was the PLO founded, and it is only then that a Palestinian nationality emerged.
the word Palestinian, by the way is of roman origin, and was given to this territory in 132 in order to disassociate it with the Jews (the roman name of the land was Provinkea judea until then). the arab accent does not even allow the word palestinian to be pronounced, and it is pronounced as either "Balestinian" or "Falestinian".
any way. in 1968 emerged the first Palestinian national movement. [url]Israel has accepted the Palestinian right of self definition[/url] (and, may i remind you, many european countrys to this day refuse to accept the same right for minorities in their land. the Basques in Spain being a prominent example) and alowed for a palestinian autonomos government in most of the west bank and Gaza.

in 2005, Israel withdrew all military forces, and evacuated all civilian population from the Gaza strip. an election took place, and Hammas, which is recognized as a terrorist organization by most governments in the world (US, UN, EU, Canada, and Japan, to name some), was elected (not before what is now known as "the battle of gaza", during which hammas and the PLO mutually killed each other's operatives.). since then, Israely cities (such as Sderot) were under attacks by rockets. (and this is not to mention the large ammount of suicide bombers exploding in civilian population Israel suffered during the 1990's and the first years of the decade).

throughot the last twenty years, Palestinian leaders have consistently turned down Israel's proposals. reading through Hamas and the PLO's charters (which i have brought previously in this thread), shows that they
a) demand the entire territory held by the british mandate (which, as you well know, had arbitrary borders).
b) refuse to accept any peaceful solutions.

these are the plain facts
look them up. i brought many references in this thread.
i'm sure some of the educated members of this forum can verify them.
and, indeed, as you put it:
"now looking at the facts theirs only one way this debate can go"

[Kit-Fox]

Yes looking at the cold hard facts there is only one conclusion, neither side deserves the land and both should be thrown off it.

please keep your posts constructive.
this is spam.
i'm not reporting it, but please delete it.

No its not spam, its an opinion. The very thing you asked for when you asked people what they think about the situation, just because you dont like it or appreciate it does not make it invalid or spam. Next time keep your threats to yourself!

EDIT: You are more than welcome to disagree with the opinion, but someone such as yourself should be appalled at yourself for trying to act in a manner similar to those who do/have take(n) part in the censorship act of book burning around the world/throughout history.

[semper]

Spam Split. Don't argue about opinions, argue about facts. Sorry for delay, internet has been difficult.


~Semps

[Juliette]

Funny how petty this issue is when you compare the few square miles of land to the full extent of the globe.

There are too many people. We need another war. Without involving the Jews, this time. They deserve a break and some slack after a few millennia of persecution. This whole egalitarian nonsense is so petty.

[jedi~tank]

i saw this while looking round and had to be a voice of reason, or at least not ignorance.

so lets forget religion and past and look at the last century, palestine was sitting pretty, sure they were part of the ottoman empire but it wasnt to bad for them. but britain then conquered them during the first world war and it became the british mandate of palastine. when this expired in 1948 palastine gets thrown into chaos as the jewish population begin murdering thousands of palastines and through military coup de tate(sp?) gained power over the country, much of the east became jordan so the palastines lost more land. if this had taken place at any other time europe would have marched in their and backhanded israel and gradually given power back to palastine but at the time there were no resources, and once israel gained a stranglehold america with its growing jewish influence made a political stand against any aid to palastine.

now lets tke it to modern day, both sides are negotiating for peace, the violence has died down, but the israeli government has continually taken back pedals on promises they have made. while they are keeping negotiations going for as long as they can they are building houses on land that in previous mandates would be palastine land thus increasing their borders.

now looking at the facts theirs only one way this debate can go

?????????????
voice of reason?
facts?

here are the facts:
first of all, the kingdom of Jordan became an independent state in 1946, and the mandate expired in 1948.
during the mandate, jewish civilians were subject to attacks by arab militias.

when the mandate expired, Israel proclaimed independence at the borders known as the partition plan and accepted by the UN.
The one hour old state was attacked by FIVE states: Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, an expedition force from Iraq. joining the party were local and non local militias.
had this attack not happened, the borders of the state of Israel would be, to this day, the partition plan's borders.
Israel defended itself against this attack. murdering thousands of arabs? this is a plain and simple LIE.

when the war of independence ended, the borders of israel (which are accepted worldwide as Israeli territories), excluded the Gaza strip and what is now known as the "occupied territories" in the west bank.
i've said it before in this thread, and i'll say it again: the gaza strip was held by Egypt, and the west bank by Jordan. BOTH did not grant any form of independence to the "palestinian people".
in 1967, during the six day wars, Israel conquered those territories. again, not from the "palestinian people", but from two sovereign states (whice are now at peace with Israel, by the way), Egypt and Jordan.
during peace negotiation with Egypt, Israel propoused to renounce Gaza. Egypt refused to take it back. Jordan, too, has made no claims to the west bank during it's peace negotiation with Israel, and makes no such claims now.

now, you may have noticed that i put commas around the words "Palestinian people". this is because, and this is crucial to understand, that the first reference to the Palestinian as a people and a nationality, was in 1968. only then was the PLO founded, and it is only then that a Palestinian nationality emerged.
the word Palestinian, by the way is of roman origin, and was given to this territory in 132 in order to disassociate it with the Jews (the roman name of the land was Provinkea judea until then). the arab accent does not even allow the word palestinian to be pronounced, and it is pronounced as either "Balestinian" or "Falestinian".
any way. in 1968 emerged the first Palestinian national movement. [url]Israel has accepted the Palestinian right of self definition[/url] (and, may i remind you, many european countrys to this day refuse to accept the same right for minorities in their land. the Basques in Spain being a prominent example) and alowed for a palestinian autonomos government in most of the west bank and Gaza.

in 2005, Israel withdrew all military forces, and evacuated all civilian population from the Gaza strip. an election took place, and Hammas, which is recognized as a terrorist organization by most governments in the world (US, UN, EU, Canada, and Japan, to name some), was elected (not before what is now known as "the battle of gaza", during which hammas and the PLO mutually killed each other's operatives.). since then, Israely cities (such as Sderot) were under attacks by rockets. (and this is not to mention the large ammount of suicide bombers exploding in civilian population Israel suffered during the 1990's and the first years of the decade).

throughot the last twenty years, Palestinian leaders have consistently turned down Israel's proposals. reading through Hamas and the PLO's charters (which i have brought previously in this thread), shows that they
a) demand the entire territory held by the british mandate (which, as you well know, had arbitrary borders).
b) refuse to accept any peaceful solutions.

these are the plain facts
look them up. i brought many references in this thread.
i'm sure some of the educated members of this forum can verify them.
and, indeed, as you put it:
"now looking at the facts theirs only one way this debate can go"

Very accurate and very well done. Also what I am about to say is an iffy thing but I will anyways..FACT- the primary goal of the descendants of Ishmael is to exterminate the descendants of Isaac. This has not to do with what we call "RELIGION" It is recorded fact, investigate this..follow the thread of descendants of each man over the course of history past, you will be amazed and what you see..about that little block of land? no no, much more.

[[KMA]Avenger]

lately i've been doing a hell of allot of research and studying. the Hebrews were originally called the Haberoos (or thieves from across the water). the Haberoos (or in today's lingo, The Hebrews) were originally the Semitic Hixos kings of Egypt, who roughly 3500 years ago ruled Egypt for roughly 100 years, but were expelled from Egypt and who then went on to invade and conquer Canaan and change the name to Is-Ra-El.
these were 3 Egyptian Gods they brought with them to Canaan...dont ask me any questions regarding Is-Ra-El...do your homework.

as i'm finding out, this is history that has been buried (i'll leave it to your imaginations as to who is changing history) because it contradicts (and indeed tells us who the land rightfully belongs to) Israel's and the history books version of historical events.

as i've said, i'm doing allot of research and the info is readily available both on the net and in the libraries (which is why i haven't spent as much time on these boards as i usually do) so dont even bother asking me for my sources...go and do your own homework!


to expand on what the Jews/Haberoos/Hebrews were doing in Egypt, many archaeologists agree that they were not a race of people but were a Semitic and Asiatic class of craftsman and workers who migrated to Egypt looking for work. over time these people integrated into the Egyptian society and contributed to Egyptian technology, economy and prayed to Egyptian Gods. they eventually started intermarrying with Egyptian men and woman and naturally moved into places of authority and eventually the thrown of Egypt itself, until they were thrown out.

i am not out to attack anyone's beliefs here, i am simply reporting what i've found out so far.

[Kit-Fox]

It doesnt really matter KMA, who the land belonged to originally or who did what. When you look at the cold hard facts of the matter, you will come to the following conclusion;

According to both sides religous texts (which both sides cite as valid reasons for why the land is theirs) both sides have broken so many of their own religous rules that they simply dont deserve any of the land in question.

And even if you look at it without religion and look at the rules and laws of each society, both sides have broken so many of their own rules & laws that again neither of them deserve the land.

The whole lot of them should be turfed off it for taking the pure ****.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i agree with you mate, i'm simply reporting on what i've found out so far, nothing more

[[KMA]Avenger]

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... kara_3.jpg

the above link has an Egyptian image of circumcision, this image is the oldest known image of circumcision anywhere in the world, as was practised by the Egyptians. why is that important?! because it proves that Gods covenant with Abraham (Abraham is an Egyptian name by the way) is nothing new and shows where the Jews or Habreoos got the practice from in the first place.

[Kit-Fox]

Circumcision is a really bad example KMA, as it has been shown that it evovled in parallel in several cultures in response to living in dry/arid regions of the earth such as deserts & other wastelands.

Where the sand or grains of dirt would catch under the foreskin causing itching, eventually leading to infection. The only cure at the time was amputation as water was usually in limited supply or non-existant. The practise evolved purely for 'medical' reasons not religious ones, as with no foreskin, no dirt or sand can be trapped underneath it.