Sex before Sacrament

[Thriller]

Those are the forum rules hitch and i agree with it.

[Hitchkok]

.siht ekil nettirw s'taht gnihtemos gnidaer yrt uoY

[ƒëmmë ƒatalë]

Apart from the fact it violates a commandment.


הנעת-אל ס בנגת אל ס ףאנת אל ס חצרת אל
:רקש דע ךערב

ותמאו ודבעו ךער תשא דמחת-אל ס ךער תיב דמחת אל
:ךערל רשא לכו ורמחו ורושו

Err....
The commandments you've provided are:
Thou shalt not murder
Tbhou shalt not fornicate
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bare false witness upon your friend
Thou shalt not covet your friend's house, wife, slave, ox, ass, and all that he has.
(makeshift translation. accurate, but not KJ.)
which commandment is violated by having pre-marital sex with an unmarried woman?

umm that would be the fornication one

[Hitchkok]

Apart from the fact it violates a commandment.


הנעת-אל ס בנגת אל ס ףאנת אל ס חצרת אל
:רקש דע ךערב

ותמאו ודבעו ךער תשא דמחת-אל ס ךער תיב דמחת אל
:ךערל רשא לכו ורמחו ורושו

Err....
The commandments you've provided are:
Thou shalt not murder
Tbhou shalt not fornicate
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bare false witness upon your friend
Thou shalt not covet your friend's house, wife, slave, ox, ass, and all that he has.
(makeshift translation. accurate, but not KJ.)
which commandment is violated by having pre-marital sex with an unmarried woman?

umm that would be the fornication one

Yeaaaaah....
Oh sorry, i meant noooooo....
fornication is having sex while married with a partner who isn't your spouse.

[ƒëmmë ƒatalë]

Apart from the fact it violates a commandment.


הנעת-אל ס בנגת אל ס ףאנת אל ס חצרת אל
:רקש דע ךערב

ותמאו ודבעו ךער תשא דמחת-אל ס ךער תיב דמחת אל
:ךערל רשא לכו ורמחו ורושו

Err....
The commandments you've provided are:
Thou shalt not murder
Tbhou shalt not fornicate
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bare false witness upon your friend
Thou shalt not covet your friend's house, wife, slave, ox, ass, and all that he has.
(makeshift translation. accurate, but not KJ.)
which commandment is violated by having pre-marital sex with an unmarried woman?

umm that would be the fornication one

Yeaaaaah....
Oh sorry, i meant noooooo....
fornication is having sex while married with a partner who isn't your spouse.

no fornication is the sexual act itself.. be it with your spouse, your neighbour or a sheep ...

[Thriller]

Sorry femme but that's wrong, you should read the whole thread before making that statement.

Unless you want to discuss the analysis of the word "fornication" i put forward ealier

[Hitchkok]

Apart from the fact it violates a commandment.


הנעת-אל ס בנגת אל ס ףאנת אל ס חצרת אל
:רקש דע ךערב

ותמאו ודבעו ךער תשא דמחת-אל ס ךער תיב דמחת אל
:ךערל רשא לכו ורמחו ורושו

Err....
The commandments you've provided are:
Thou shalt not murder
Tbhou shalt not fornicate
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bare false witness upon your friend
Thou shalt not covet your friend's house, wife, slave, ox, ass, and all that he has.
(makeshift translation. accurate, but not KJ.)
which commandment is violated by having pre-marital sex with an unmarried woman?

umm that would be the fornication one

Yeaaaaah....
Oh sorry, i meant noooooo....
fornication is having sex while married with a partner who isn't your spouse.

no fornication is the sexual act itself.. be it with your spouse, your neighbour or a sheep ...

sex per-se isn't prohibited anywhere in the old testament.
can't be. it's the means of reproduction. we can't all have originated in sin.
regardless of the meaning of fornication in english, the hebrew original "Tin'af" means having sex with a partner who isn't your spouse.

[Mister Sandman]

.siht ekil nettirw s'taht gnihtemos gnidaer yrt uoY

Love is not an emotion..?

Violates which commandment?

Why would i have to ask every christain?

If your just going to post unrelated statements as fact without offering at least little bit of reasoning, than you migtht aswell not even post Sandman.

Same to you.

Oh and don't post in another language without offering a TRANSLATION OR I'LL HAVE TO WARN YOU

It is not what I said, Love can be considered in being not a emotion.
If you dont understand, you have much to learn padawan.
Just like hate is a emotion, however, it isnt at the same time.

Why would you have to ask every Christian, because there isnt really centralised Christian view on everything. Translation: Every Christian is different.

It violates the ideals which are commanded to live a better life, to have a better life, to please God.


Unfortunately, the Bible does not come out and directly say, “Premarital sex is wrong,” or “Sex is a gift that should be shared with as many people as many times as possible.” The Bible is a tool used by many to answer the most thought-provoking questions, but at times one can pull out contradicting verses.

The Hebrew Scripture, or Old Testament, refers to premarital sex, or fornication, on several occasions in just the first three books, with the ultimate outcome being that one should abstain from sexual immorality and honor God with your body. This “sexual immorality” involves acts that prevent man and woman from becoming “one flesh,” as stated in Genesis (Christian Evangelism and Healing). This relates to the mostimportant passages of the Hebrew Scripture, when the Ten Commandments are conveyed to the Israelites, and adultery is said to be a mortal sin. But is adultery and premarital sex the same? By looking at the Old Testament book Leviticus, it is quite clear that God intends for everyone to have his or her specific partner. The third book in the Bible goes on to say that to “uncover the nakedness” of someone other than your wife or husband is to “defile yourself”(Leviticus 18:20). The modern teaching that intimacy among unmarried couples is okay as longs as it stops short of sexual intercourse does not fulfill God’s wishes of purity and holiness as conveyed in the Old Testament. Chapter 18 of Leviticus later goes on to specifically outline those who one should “not have sexual relations with.” The list is long and includes, “your father…your mother...your sister…your son’s daughter…your daughter’s daughter…your father’s sister…your mother’s sister…your father’s brother…your daughter-in-law…your brother’s wife…your kinsman’s wife…your neighbor’s wife”(NIV, Leviticus 18: 6-20). This leaves you with one choice, your husband or wife.


Also, under Old Testament law, casual sex was impossible; there was no such thing. For an unmarried man to have sex with an unmarried woman was to make an even more binding commitment than a normal marriage (Hastings). This falls a long the same line as the Christian teaching of consummation, as it is the responsibility of a couple to consummate the marriage after the actual ceremony before it is recognized as being legitimate.

God has indeed given humans a gift, the gift to give life. However, according to St. Pau,l just because we have inherited that gift does not mean that we have the right to abuse it. “Everything is permissible for me—but not everything is beneficial,” St. Paul said in his first letter to the Corinthians. St. Paul goes on to warn the people of the port city of Corinth: Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God (NIV, 1 Corinthinas 6: 9-10)

St. Paul puts offenses such as idolatry, adultery, stealing, and slanderers, all interpreted to some extent as being in violation of one of the Ten Commandments, on par with being sexually immoral, which we have already decided falls along the lines of having premarital sex. St. Paul urges each and every one of us to “flee from sexual immorality” (Tant). Today’s world has gotten so used to the idea of promiscuous relations and premarital sex that we fail to realize the holiness of our body.

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body(NIV, 1 Corinthians 6:19-20).

Paul is clearly stating the importance of purity and virginity in these multiple passages. But he does not in any way devalue sex as being something terrible but just the opposite. Simon of Tournai restates this in one of the first comprehensive studies on premarital sex. A survey of forty-four theologians writing from1152 to 1327 revealed that most of those who wrote on premarital sex concluded that it was always a mortal sin. Simon believed that sex is natural, whether married or not. But in marriage it is good; outside of marriage it is bad (Dedek, 644). Hanibald of Hanibaldus disagreed. He viewed sex as completely unnatural when performed outside of marriage. In Hannibal’s opinion, indiscriminate sex without any bond of long-term cohabitation is against the law of nature and highly unnatural. Nature requires not only a long-term union but also a permanent union because parents are obliged to save up for their children and leave them an inheritance. But what if the person is not caught or a child does not come about as a result of the sexual relations? This is a modern day question with the development of birth control devices. According to Hanibald the act is still “intrinsically evil,” and there is no room for individual discretion or exception making (Dedek, 660).


Jesus referred back to the idea of man and woman becoming “one flesh” and signifies the importance of marriage; something we as a culture have lost.

Anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. Matthew 5: 32

Jesus went on to add:

At the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’, and said, ‘for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one. Matthew 19: 4-5 (Cramer)

Jesus focused on a lot of issues in this teaching to the Pharisees. First, he shows how by divorcing a woman causes both the woman and her future husband to commit adultery. Even in marriage sex is not allowed, according to Jesus, unless it is with the first individual you had sexual relations with. What is the only ground for divorce? Jesus did not talk about physical or psychological abuse, though this may pertain to it indirectly, he did however speak about being unfaithful. Being disloyal is the most egregious crime a person can commit. When a partner in a marriage is unfaithful not only does he or she hurt his or her partner, but it also creates a domino effect destroying everyone in its path. Hebrews sums it up perfectly, “Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and the sexually immoral”(What the Bible says about…. Premarital sex). The idea Jesus is trying to present here is that marriage is indeed an extremely powerful commitment with awesome circumstances when done properly, however it has the adverse affects when one gives in to temptations and other worldly pleasures.

St. Paul, who spanned the known world educating Gentiles about Jesus and his teachings, advised the Thessalonians on “how to live in order to please God”(NIV, 1 Thessalonians 4:1). He touched on many subjects including how to view non-believers. But even before St. Paul instructed the Gentiles how to deal with spiritual non-believers he focused on the physical body, something contrary to religious practices where much of the teachings are based solely around spirituality. St. Paul cautioned the Thessalonians about the dangers of not practicing self-control. “Each of you should learn to control his own body. In a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God,” St. Paul said (Sands, 222).

St. Paul and others indeed took a hard stance on sexual relations, and stressed the importance of abstaining from premarital sex. It is a wide held belief that the New Testament does not take a firm stance in sexual relations before marriage, but this is simply not true. Critics of the view that sex before marriage is not allowed under the Bible often points to the fact that Jesus dined with prostitutes, signaling that clearly Jesus did not think negatively of the act. However, opponents of this scrutiny simply see this as Jesus’ unconditional love and ability to forgive the gravest of sins. He is not in any way condoning the acts of Mary Magdalene and other sexually immoral individuals. Jesus tended to associate with the societies outcasts as a way of saying, “It is not your job to judge,” and “Look these people have asked for forgiveness, and I have granted it to them.” This is only true of course “if we confess our sins…(He) will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness”(NIV, 1John1: 9). This last point offers hope to the over 70-percent of 18-year olds that have said they have had sex, many of which regret it. (Reimer)

Today, many people are attached to the romantic ideal of a life enriched with a variety of experiences, or a “variety is the spice of life” mentality. We love to be thought of as “well rounded” people always looking to move on to the next new exciting adventure. So why should we not keep that same ideal when talking about sexual partners? Is not monogamy monotony? It may be true that variety, when talked about in regards to food, friends, or extracurricular activities may be beneficial, however sex is uniquely different. One can wholeheartedly enjoy playing baseball today and then in seek of a change move on to the violin tomorrow and not suffer any serious mental consequences. Sex on the other hand is loaded with underlying physical and emotional attachments. The Bible teaches that sexual intercourse establishes the deepest kind of emotional and psychological bond between a man and a woman. Is it possible to have sex and not become emotionally attached? By reading and interpreting the Bible it appears the answer is a resounding No. Even if you never see that individual again you will always be connected in some form. “He who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her body,” St. Paul said, lending credence to the power of sex and its ability to bring people together (NIV, 1 Corinthians 6: 16). In many ways you will always be committing adultery against your first sexual partner, even after you are married to your supposed true love.

Love. It is the principal virtue in the New Testament. Without “love, I am nothing,” said Saint Paul in his first letter to the people of Corinth. But what is love and how is it different from lust? Jesus warned us “everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart”(NIV, Matthew 5:28). In Colossians, “lust” is reason to be “put to death”(NIV, Colossians 3:5). Job, a righteous figure in the Old Testament, said, “I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl” (NIV, Job 31:1). Saint Paul understood that the people of Corinth were having trouble distinguishing between love and lust, and he wanted to dispel all doubts by defining what love really is in order for the people to avoid falling into a life of lust.

Love is patient: love is kind. Love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, endures all things. 1 Corinthians 13: 4-7

Premarital sex is a sin, and somewhere over the years the virtue of chastity has been lost. Society tell us that we should practice “safe sex,” and young teenagers must be educated and be given birth control mechanisms because “they are going to do it anyways.” However, God has more respect and trust for us. Animals will do it anyways. People have a choice, a choice whether to believe marriage is honorable, or they can choose to fall into the trap society so desperately wants us to fall into. God created sex and He wants people to enjoy it, but it is only beautiful under the right circumstances. What about the incentive to “test drive before you buy the car?” It is a valid question, but I think the real question is-how would one feel about buying the car after it has been “test driven” by a half dozen drivers over a period of years? Furthermore, what would one do with a car that performed well initially but later had “engine trouble?” Now, with the “engine” gone, what similarities and things in common does the couple have to keep the marriage strong? Those who abstain from sex are not “joyless, undersexed, anti-life, anti-youth, and anti-progress”(McClymond, 221). In fact they are just the opposite.

Those who wait for the Lord shall renew their strength, they shall mount up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint. Isaiah 4: 31 (New Revised Standard Version, 741)

[Chronus]

1 Corinthians 6:18-20 & 1 Corinthians 7:1-2

"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

also look at
Mt: 15:19, Mk 7:21, Acts 15:20, 29, 21:25, 1 Cor 6:13, 18, Gal 5:19, Eph 5:3, Col 3:5, 1 Thes 4:3, Rev 2:14, 20-21, 9:21

The defination of fornication is premarital sex.

[Hitchkok]

Sex before marriage does not violate any of God laws that are outlined in the bible( i have already made a long argument for this). therefor is is possible to keep your body holy and still have sex out of marriage since the act itself is not sinful and premarital sex is not sinful either.

my point is this:
Golfing isn't prohibited anywhere in the Bible.
How would the church react to you using a cross as a golf club?
"It's blasphemy", that's how.

The quote from Genesis is giving us the basis to understand where these desires came from. In the beginning god created us and told us to multiply so we could look after and reign over the earth. he gave us the gift of sex( for it was good) and helped us in the task of keeping our world dominion.

No where in the bible does it say you must only have sex to have children

(and your probably going to throw that story about spilling seed on the ground at me. But that story is about someone not living up to family obligations as it was customary for the brother to help in situations of male infertility back than)

sex, as we agree, was given to us as a means of reproduction.
Now, there are Holy acts, there are Un-Holy acts, and there are A-holy acts (and let's all be mature and avoid childish puns. it means acts that are neither Holy nor Un-holy, and you all know it). Sex is a holy act. It's God's work, when done with the intent of reproduction (that's anyway how Jews interpret it. yes, even the most zealus ultra-orthodox). And just as other holy acts, when it's done with other intent it becomes Un-holy. Not A-holy (damn, such a good joke there), down right Un-holy.
Why? because it's blasphemy.
It might help you to think of it as desecrating a place of worship.

1 Corinthians 6:18-20 & 1 Corinthians 7:1-2

"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

also look at
Mt: 15:19, Mk 7:21, Acts 15:20, 29, 21:25, 1 Cor 6:13, 18, Gal 5:19, Eph 5:3, Col 3:5, 1 Thes 4:3, Rev 2:14, 20-21, 9:21

The defination of fornication is premarital sex.

KJ Bible is filled with mis-translations.
"Tin'af" in biblical hebrew is "have sex with a married person (not married to you, that is)".
In modern-spoken hebrew it means "commit adultery" (actually, that's a linguistic mistake, but it's the common use).

[Thriller]

So I see you know just as much about sex and you do about cars Sandman.

Your wrote alot there so i'll a full reply to that when i get the time.

We have not agreed premarital sex is sin... and you have to shown where in the bible it outlines it as such.

You have taken a very biased interpretation of the scripture on what your including in your argument and on what you are conveniently leaving out... (the old testament says that slavery is okay as well if you look at it narrowly)

But i'll fully address your enormous confirmation bias when i get the time to do it properly..

But the bottom line still stands... the bible does not state premarital sex is a sin... Selective reading of it to try to show it is, can be compared to putting words in God's mouth.

[Eelyzabth]

i'm not going to argue the point, just going to throw this in there:

the bible was not written by God, it was written by people claiming to have heard God, most people who Claim to have heard God these days, end up in straight jackets...

I am just saying i wouldn't go around believing the world was a disc on the back of 4 elephants riding on a giant turtle just cos some guy wrote it down, so why believe that you have to mearried to someone for sex not to be sinful, why even think it is sinful at all? Sex is amazing, or can be with the right person, what if you marry someone and the sex is really bad? you should live life with terrible sex? you wouldn't buy a pair of shoes without trying them on would you? and why make sex so good if we weren't meant to want it and enjoy it? thats like saying chocolate is evil and only married people are allowed it... its like entrapment or something.

[RBR]

Sex and marriage are two different things.
one have nothing to do with the other
sex is about having a good time or for reproduction..(or a way to make a living)
marriage is about commitment, respect etc.. and its a way bigger picture than sex
PS: usually sex disappear after marriage
PS2: sex is awesome for health and moral...marriage ?? I don`t know yet...

[Psyko]

Sex and marriage are two different things.
one have nothing to do with the other
sex is about having a good time or for reproduction..(or a way to make a living)
marriage is about commitment, respect etc.. and its a way bigger picture than sex
PS: usually sex disappear after marriage
PS2: sex is awesome for health and moral...marriage ?? I don`t know yet...

Shame on you for ignoring the PS3; it's one of the better consoles out there.

I don't believe in marriage because I see it as a legal agreement between two people. That has nothing to do with religion, if you actually successfully managed to separate church and state like the American government claims.

If I want to spend my life in a monogamous relationship with someone and bear their children I don't need to spend $50-$150 for a piece of paper legally binding me to said person. Not to mention having to pay the government if I decide to leave for whatever reason, the average person spends $3,000 on a divorce agreement. Sure, I can get some benefits on my taxes and see them in the ICU, but I don't think it's worth it.

If you take law out of the matter completely, the "marriage" of a man and a woman, or a man and a man, or a woman and a woman, (if you are religious) is between the two of them and God. No need for documentation, no need to pay the courts, just two people who love each other making a promise to stick together through all the trials and tribulations of life.

And with that whole marriage problem out of the way, we're all free to have sex whenever the hell we want. Amen.

[Dubby_CompGamerGeek2]

Thriller quotes "sexual immorality" several times,
over fornication, which is much more specific, and quoted by Femme...
without being able to tell us, in context of time, culture, or language what that means.



Personally, I'm not into the bible or religion...

I do what I think is right because I think it is right,

and I do what I think is wrong because I give into what my conscience says is temptation.

I have never based any of my decisions, so far as I can recall, solely on what is in the bible...

aside from perhaps agreeing that the text is correct in its logic and reasoning.