StarGateWars Forums

osiris on your remark about how socialism stagnates technological development

interestingly enough you don't see how capitalism prevents technological development (by saying it prevents i dont' mean it stops it but it slows it down tremendously)

Medicine: companies don't invest into research because they want instant profit, not any potential future profits (even if they could be much higher)

Computers: Holographic "CD's" which could store over 1 TB were said to have been developed and be ready for mass production about 3-4 years ago, interestingly enough they somehow dissapeared and now you are left over with dual layer and blu ray which allow you to store "only" 8 and ~40-60 GB respectively. If the holographic technology would have been put into the market the milions of dollars companies have spent on developing blu ray and dual layer would have been wasted and they wanted to make alot of money on it first.

And not everybody is able to earn such money like you are. And you can be certain that laws protecting normal workers and giving them good working conditions didn't come out of nowhere. Capitalism killed milions of people who had to live and work under dreadful conditions in the 18-19th century before workers were able to group together and force some changes (often enough you also had the police going around killing the demostrators, so much for your freedom of speech and others in the "modern western countries" i.e. USA)

I meant on a grand scale. Look at the U.S. military its the most advanced on the planet, a carrier group could mop up any navy in existance in a few days.

Øsiris wrote:I meant on a grand scale. Look at the U.S. military its the most advanced on the planet, a carrier group could mop up any navy in existance in a few days.

yes, it helps humanity alot if you develop technologies to be able to destroy people faster and more effectively.

look half the inventions we use today came only because war forced governments to research them. you can be certain that no company ever would invest money on a research project that is uncertain of sucess

Privaten wrote:you make like your free Health Care, but the docters that do it probably aren't happy they are performing surgeries, spent years getting educated and earning nothing more than a laborer. Capitalism gives everybody the chance to move up. Some people are just too lazy (because they gget welfare, or don't need to work). The majority of homeless people in the US are homeless because a lot of them don't want to work. The ones that do WILL find a job. They just need to look hard. Look at the Mexican immigrants, they come over here to work, so theyn they are now making money forr their families. I don't see Europes neighbors having lots of immigrants coming to work. You just need to want to work. Hard work and effort will pay off

LOL. You seem to be dreaming about the american dream again.
So why don't you wake up?

A doctor is better of, because he has more status. (And as a doctor you would be earning more, but it wouldn't be 1000% percent of a workers pay, but maybe only 150%) Also I'd like to point at one thing. If someone studies medicine, you might expect that he will like his job more than if he were to work at some factory.

marusai wrote:

Privaten wrote:you make like your free Health Care, but the docters that do it probably aren't happy they are performing surgeries, spent years getting educated and earning nothing more than a laborer. Capitalism gives everybody the chance to move up. Some people are just too lazy (because they gget welfare, or don't need to work). The majority of homeless people in the US are homeless because a lot of them don't want to work. The ones that do WILL find a job. They just need to look hard. Look at the Mexican immigrants, they come over here to work, so theyn they are now making money forr their families. I don't see Europes neighbors having lots of immigrants coming to work. You just need to want to work. Hard work and effort will pay off

LOL. You seem to be dreaming about the american dream again.
So why don't you wake up?

A doctor is better of, because he has more status. (And as a doctor you would be earning more, but it wouldn't be 1000% percent of a workers pay, but maybe only 150%) Also I'd like to point at one thing. If someone studies medicine, you might expect that he will like his job more than if he were to work at some factory.

Of course a doctor makes more, he's more skilled. I'd much rather have 90% of the factory workers be killed then 90% of the doctors. To become a doctor is hard work and during residency and others you work more hours then a factory worker, maybe in not such harsh conditions but same amount of hours

Apadamek wrote:

marusai wrote:

Privaten wrote:you make like your free Health Care, but the docters that do it probably aren't happy they are performing surgeries, spent years getting educated and earning nothing more than a laborer. Capitalism gives everybody the chance to move up. Some people are just too lazy (because they gget welfare, or don't need to work). The majority of homeless people in the US are homeless because a lot of them don't want to work. The ones that do WILL find a job. They just need to look hard. Look at the Mexican immigrants, they come over here to work, so theyn they are now making money forr their families. I don't see Europes neighbors having lots of immigrants coming to work. You just need to want to work. Hard work and effort will pay off

LOL. You seem to be dreaming about the american dream again.
So why don't you wake up?

A doctor is better of, because he has more status. (And as a doctor you would be earning more, but it wouldn't be 1000% percent of a workers pay, but maybe only 150%) Also I'd like to point at one thing. If someone studies medicine, you might expect that he will like his job more than if he were to work at some factory.

Of course a doctor makes more, he's more skilled. I'd much rather have 90% of the factory workers be killed then 90% of the doctors. To become a doctor is hard work and during residency and others you work more hours then a factory worker, maybe in not such harsh conditions but same amount of hours

I doubt you'd prefer 90% of either, both are as important as the other is, without the doctor you'd lose healthcare but without the factory worker you'd lose production, which could be production of anything including med.supplies or clothes, food, anything. One way of another you need 'em.

Bear with me, i'm no economics major (or minor) and must spell things out to understand them.

So, As I understand it:

marusai wrote:A doctor is better of, because he has more status. (And as a doctor you would be earning more, but it wouldn't be 1000% percent of a workers pay, but maybe only 150%) Also I'd like to point at one thing. If someone studies medicine, you might expect that he will like his job more than if he were to work at some factory.

We've moved from Socialism, to Communism....
The primary issue of Communism, as different from socialism, is that is messes with a thing's market value by substituting an artificial one.
Thus, the doctor earns 10k instead of 100k etc. etc. etc.

Usually this is slanted towards the poorer professions. At worse, communism attempts to fund completely equality: were a computer costs $10, a car costs $10, a loaf of bread costs $10 etc. Thankfully, you seem only to be arguing for a more limited version.

(And as a doctor you would be earning more, but it wouldn't be 1000% percent of a workers pay, but maybe only 150%)

The issue is still the same. For, while the government might price the final product at a set rate... unless that set rate is higher than the capital necessary to produce the product... you earn a negative balance.

Further, and what affects this argument, the higher the initial funds necessary to get a product off the ground, the greater must be the reward. You do not, for example, build a machine out of parts costing $21,000, and sell it for $21,001... for then, rather than taking all the effort to assemble $20,000 in parts, you could just weave a basket for $.50 and sell for $1.50.

Same profit, less work.

Swap money for time and effort... and you doctor would be absolutely stupid, (or morally driven; which is fine) to spend, say, $200,000 and five years learning his trade, to only get a profit 1/3 greater than a man who spent no money, and no time learning his profession.

-------------------------------------

All other factors aside, Job happiness etc.,
To artificially change a things market value really makes a mess.
When that change is accomplished by a private organism, a business gouging the market, a corporation going bankrupt; the consumer can deal.
It may be ugly, but the consumer does have ways to fight back.

The consumer cannot fight back when artificial prices are enforced by the government: Socialist nations with enforced monopolies, Communist nations with profession wage-caps: Should such government makes a mistake in selecting services, setting the wage, the consumer is powerless to even create a minor air hole, and is crushed.

The possible only way around government interference is a black market, which hurts a nations economy, and it’s national integrity.

In communism everything is free. Food costs 0, A car costs 0, a house costs 0.

and yes, you work for free as well.

The payment you get is happiness from work and people you work with as well as the joy of helping others and putting your effort to improve the society even more making it a greater and more beautiful paradise.


PS:
if you look up NG, it is a server with over half a million flash submissions made by authors for free. They worked hard to achieve something that everyone can watch and enjoy. Like open source linux. These are islands of communism!!!

marusai wrote:The payment you get is happiness from work

As if...

Tollan Phoenix wrote:

marusai wrote:The payment you get is happiness from work

As if...

Yeah right. Damn if Id idn't get paid to lifeguard i'd have killed myelf by now. Can you even imagine how annoying those little ingrades are? I also have to teach swim lessons and manage clinics and other stuff. I get notified a day before or teh day of big events. My boss is never around. I only get paid 7.50 when in the summerI make 10 and that job isn't much better. If I never got paids I put a few bullets in a bunch of heads.

marusai wrote:In communism everything is free. Food costs 0, A car costs 0, a house costs 0. [.......]
The payment you get is happiness from work and people you work with as well as the joy of helping others and putting your effort to improve the society even more making it a greater and more beautiful paradise.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch, and men are not motivated by altruism. It is possible to garner a minority, and adjust their mental outlook to the point where they take up the Cross and go serve, for no reason but internal ones However,

They will always be in the minority. For everyone else, if they can get something free without working, why should they still work? Even if they do go through the motions, because a higher master is overlooking them, they will never lay into their work like a man who benifits directly from it.

Communism makes the majority of men effective slaves. Their work goes directly into the mouths of other men, and even if they work under the lash, they are like mules and do only what is forced out of them.

To quote Uroguard:

Uroguard wrote:companies don't invest into research because they want instant profit, not any potential future profits (even if they could be much higher)

This is an argument against captalism; but it works against communism as well. If a company will not invest in the future, even when they would reap the benifits directly; how can you expect a teenager to bother to learn medicine, when even after all his sweat he will still sit down to eat lean cabbage for dinner? How can you expect him, to wade down into the sewar system, to clean the refuse of his fellow man; when he will eat the same lean cabbage as the man who spent the day pruning the cities garden in the fresh air? (Heck, even if they all dine on Caviar, there is no equality; why should the sewer cleaner only get the same reward as the waiter who serves the food? There is no justice, not even a semblance of one.)


People are not equal (pysically/mentally speaking).
Work is not equal, don't ask a goverment to regulate it.

The majority of man is greedy and shelfish.
If religion can't bribe that out of an entire nation, if the millitary can't beat it out of the entire population,
how can a goverment coerce such goodwill out of the economy?


I'm not saying that men cannot be quasi-altruist; I put in my share of community service; But there is a reason most volunteer organizations are small and in constant need of donation: And it's not because of captitalisim, or materialism... it's due to human nature.

You will work anyway.

You will work for your own good. If you wouldnt work you would die from boredom. Guess why many people are depressed when they go to rent. Many would like to stay in the job. Even for free!!!

marusai wrote:you will work anyway

Yeah, that's what I hoped wasn't coming next.

And I'm not sure if either of my parents would mind retiring now if they could. If their jobs were free...

You will work anyway.

As I said, if I am "working anyway" due to government enforcement, I will do only that which they make me, and nothing more. Men only exert themselves when they feel the exertion is worth it.
I certainly won't be pulling a Bill Gates.

marusai wrote:If you wouldnt work you would die from boredom.

Lol... No... Just no.
When people are bored, do they go out an work? No, they do recreation;
They go see a movie, play a computer game, sit outside and count clouds.
They don't run down to the nearest clogged toilet and set about fixing it (unless it is theirs, and they want to use it.)

I can also assure you, that just because your working, does not mean you are not bored... honestly, what Job do you currently hold? There are many, many times, when I'm bored out of my mind at my work; and it's not because I’ve run out of books to shelve, it's because frankly, the work is boring.
To be sure, there are doubtless jobs that aren't boring... but on the whole... no.

marusai wrote:Guess why many people are depressed when they go to rent.

Go to rent?
I'm not used to that phrase.
<selfedit>
Retire? Ah, in that case I still think you are quite wrong. In most cases, the depression arises from other circumstances; often with ilness that age brings, (in the case of both my Grandfathers).
To be sure, one of my Grandmother's came out of retirement to work... but she'd much rather spend her time with friends playing bridge. The work was due to neccesity.

marusai wrote:Many would like to stay in the job. Even for free!!!

Heh... I'm sure there have been instances where that is true.
A charismatic captain manages to get his crew to accept and IOU etc.
But come on... the majority of people will never work for nothing.
And the economy is built on the majority.

Communism has no governments, maybe some administrators that's all. No one forces you to do anything. If you want you can smoke pot all the time.

You are completely free to do anything (which doesn't harm others)