our leaders, the elite and the rest of high society are...

[Legendary Apophis]

I hate to disabuse you Pops & Uni, but the UK system is indeed highly corrupt, the paries while highly dodgy and being as a straight as a 9-bob note arent the real problem in the UK at least.
...

I know this. I just called Jim out on his idea that because Iran is worse, the UK is a free country. No desillusionment here, the situation is not unfamiliar.

Hence why I personally refuse to meddle in the affairs of the lower class, the dark, decaying and gloomy side of society. I prefer the sunshine just above the middle. Chemically or pharmaceutically induced? Perhaps. It doesn't change the fact that it is sunshine.

As for seeing the world as positive and have happiness, as long as it's not thru drugs and other forbidden things, it is acceptable. But well, it's not always easy to be positive, which doesn't mean taking drugs or stuff like that to counter it, is to be done. As we all know, drugs are forbidden, and should remain so (otherwise we would have just too many negative effects). Just to tell, my apparent blindness regarding the evilness behind the curtain doesn't come from any drug (aka the world is marvellous or no idea what kind of utopian view), I don't see the rivers of rainbows from mushrooms or anything of that sort. They indeed also tend to destroy stuff and annoy people or be out of things completly. But that's not the debate.
My point was, just because world isn't fair, is corrupt or whatever, or because you want to be happy, doesn't mean you should take illegal substances to blind yourself into a wonderful *fake* world, otherwise, you would more likely regret it a way or another, a moment or another!
Too much people tend to do that, for various reasons, among which what we are debating about currently is part of those.

Dude, you totally misunderstand. The chemical or pharmaceutical illusion that I'm talking about isn't the rosy coloured shiney world that I see when I smoke pot or when I am tripping.. it's what Avenger refers to with the psychotropic drugs in the water supply etcetera. You know, the mind control stuff, that keeps you happy and obedient. Love it.

Ah well.. I am out of here again. Good talk, people, good talk.

My bad, I *totally* forgot about those things.

Now your post looks more logical. I was a bit confused.

Jim, ARE YOU SERIOUS? i cannot believe what i am reading!!!

Pops is like the perfect example of those people that blindly submit to their government, you should ignore him.

Another frustrated-by-the-system attempting to do a dig at me. (awww!) From the local I criticize all and don't vote (and even criticize voters, roflmao!), as well as boasting about knowing all (while obviously having *no* clue of what they are talking about, when refering to other people, here being me).
Typical kind of people who are generally ignored in such debates. Given they are completly static to their stance.
At least I admit I probably wouldn't vote in banana republics, but it doesn't mean I feel -or would feel- like the all knowing one, because I wouldn't vote compared to others who would vote, and accuse them of being sheeps or no idea what (that would be quite a bad move of mine!).
But well, talking about what you have no clue of (like assuming stuff about me, which happens to be utterly false, expectable though), generally tends to throw nonsense. Oh well...

Nevermind! I should ignore you!

[[KMA]Avenger]

after reading Jim's and Universes posts after my last, the fog has cleared (lol) and i now understand what your saying and i do agree or at the very least, accept much of what you say, but not all of it

@Don Karnage: regardless of whats said between me and Jim in THIS part of the forum, i still have ALLOT of respect for Jim....me and Jim are old skool AK and have spent many hours on MSN talking crazy things and laughing.
so while i thank you for the advice to ignore Jim, it wont happen


@universe, we have a VERY grave situation in the UK. our PM and most of parliament have been caught swindling the tax payer by making false claims for expenses and i dont see anyone angry despite ads on the TV about benefit cheats cant hide and the types of punishment a benefit cheat can expect to get once caught....whats wrong with that picture? thats one example and a small one at that.

as i have said in the past, i have a 700meg file on my computer which proves that Ted Heaths Govt committed treason and sedition by taking us into the EU, and every Govt since Ted Heaths is guilty after the fact by keeping us and driving us deeper into the EU. this isn't a theory or anything else, i have the proof and will make it available to anyone who wants it.

that's how much and how deep the corruption is, this isn't an anti-EU thing, its the fact that our Govts do whatever the hell they like even when it goes against OUR (as in the UK) constitution (magna carta, bill of rights).

and that's just 2 levels of this crap....it goes MUCH deeper.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i hear what your saying, tis cool

[Brdavs]

Satanist, chatolic, same diff.

It`s not the fictional being worshped but the line how far it`s taken that`s the question.

In so far we don`t have that many modern politicians doing stuff cos lucifer told them to, atlest nobody can provide anything but still photos of "terorrist fist jibes" (fox TM) as to such.
We have however had a georgie and a tony that by their admission apprently had a direct phoneline upstairs telling them what to do in regards to a couple invasions.
Theirs (plus one or two more) nations are apparently also blessed and elevated from the rest by the allmighty god to be the greatest nations on this earth.
Neato.

So personally, the latter scares a tone more crap out of me than the prospect that "that and that" XY representative allegedly draws pentagrams in his spare time. So what?

What`s next, we`re on the vigile against the antichrist? geez louise... Draw some lines people.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i think the biggest problem with accepting stuff like this is not whether its actually happening, but the fact that none of us would do it therefore we judge (generally speaking) others as incapable of practising satanism because we have a certain set of morals which doesn't allow us to practise anything as gross as satansim, and we project that high moral standard on everyone else. we automaticly think its false simply because we wouldn't do it, therefore no one else would either.
the problem lies not in the argument of "is it real or a product of over-imagination", but actually lies in the fact just because none of us is that evil or disbelieving doesn't change the fact those that practise this kind of crap do believe it, regardless of what you or i think or believe, they believe it and that's all that matters in their minds.

[Kit-Fox]

Yes but they are such a small minority that they dont matter.

I was reminded of a rather important saying a couple of days ago that has some bearing on this

'there is no country without its people'

And its what the 'people' think that really matters in the long run as there are more of us than there are of these so called 'elites'

[Brdavs]

i think the biggest problem with accepting stuff like this is not whether its actually happening, but the fact that none of us would do it therefore we judge (generally speaking) others as incapable of practising satanism because we have a certain set of morals which doesn't allow us to practise anything as gross as satansim, and we project that high moral standard on everyone else. we automaticly think its false simply because we wouldn't do it, therefore no one else would either.
the problem lies not in the argument of "is it real or a product of over-imagination", but actually lies in the fact just because none of us is that evil or disbelieving doesn't change the fact those that practise this kind of crap do believe it, regardless of what you or i think or believe, they believe it and that's all that matters in their minds.

Lol you do know that its just your faith that pictures them thus? As far as I know real "satanists" arent really the fornicating with animals, drinking blood and whatver other clishee altar boys get scared to go to bed with heh?

Heck, every other conservative catholic is all about induvidualism, eye for an eye morality and the good old self indulgance once in a while. Coincidentaly, the main 3 tennants of LaVeys church of satan lol.

Its just a POV. An inconsequential one most of the time. When it starts showing in state policies, and heavy stuff happens cos someone got a nod from beyond, then people ought get worried.

And its what the 'people' think that really matters in the long run as there are more of us than there are of these so called 'elites'

People dont think. Case in point things discussed in this thread. People get told what to think. That theres a man on the clowd thats good and another one under the ground thats bad. That people should obey those in charge. And also that those elites in charge are evil. Same fenomena jsut different direction.

It`s all natural inertia.

Every system gravitates towards preserving its own integrity.

And in every social system eventually an inner circle of factors "running" it gets formed, by the very nature of things.
Do away with the elites of today and new elites will be created. Its how it is.
Theory of systems is really a fascinating subject when you get into it hehe.

[[KMA]Avenger]

Yes but they are such a small minority that they dont matter.

very true, we obviously do have the numbers and this is the Elites biggest fear, an awakened public.

but you overlook somethings...

1stly, the elite know a confrontation is coming, in fact, they want it to happen, which is why the police have been militarised.

2ndly, its because "they" know what's coming they are passing gun grabbing laws in the US...even though this is a clear violation of the constitution.

3rd, gun owners, veterans, militia, Ron Paul supporters and people who sight the US constitution are the number 1 threat to the establishment for obvious reasons. which is why in the US they have been labelled as potential terrorists:
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=h ... 407923447d

4th, read War Is A Racket by General Smedley Butler. in the book the General explains how the military has been doing the bidding of the corporations. that's easily verified when you take a look at troop deployment in Afghanistan. the troops are deployed around 2 key areas, the poppy fields and the pipelines...

the point is the elites own the military, granted not all military personnel would open fire on their fellow countrymen, but foreign troops deployed in say England have no affinity with the populace and they would open fire on the general populace.

in 1996 ( i think it was 1996) a survey was carried out in America asking the American military if they would open fire on their fellow Americans, i cant remember all the figures but 11% had no opinion on the matter, i was like WTH?! how can a soldier (regardless of country) have no opinion about firing on their fellow countrymen if ordered to do so by their Govt?!?!

and on a side note about the troops deployed in Afghanistan, what i said is fact and not fiction:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/newsb ... 375494.stm

there's allot more evidence than just that picture (which is not 100% conclusive, i know) but i cant be arsed to go look for it.
there's also the so called "airlift of evil", in which the US army has been ferrying around Taliban, getting them to safety and also planting them in Pakistan to destabilise the country...

so just because we have numbers, dont think for a minute the elite haven't prepared for an uprising. to say "they" are 10 steps ahead of us is a major understatement.