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Don't be economic girlie men!

whaddya mean

The Termina- I mean, governor of California used the phrase 'don't be economic girlie men' when referencing his opponents.

Spam basically.

But, AFAIK, we are not Patrick's opponents, are we?

no, just heard that phrase and had to post it somewhere.

*adds some spice to the discussion*

1- Freedom, Happynees, Health are abstractions too and we think of them as posible. Horizons allow you to set a path and walk it even when u know is imposible to get exactly there.

2- That is because the ppl that wrote this only knew Monarchy and Parlamentary democracy as the only posible way to set a government. In other words: they are the ppl that get something from such structures = dominant class.

3- This is talking about marxism. Maxism is not the only socialist aproach. In fact socialism and the idea of classes was there before marx. Even more; there are christian aproachs to socialism. FOr example the "Liberation theology" a stong movement within the catholic church until the 60s-70s and killed by John Paul II. And of course if something was still alive of that movement this new Pope is taking care of killing it in his crazy path back to middle age.

4- This remind me the militar propaganda of the South America dicatorships in 70s-80s. hahahaha

5- Sure, the entire government staff will [Spacey edit out] your wife and play sports with your kinds while u work in a mine. Which is the most stupid statement, 4 or 5?

6- Bad trade for who? U are thinking in a Socialist Sociaty in the middle of a Capitalist World. That is is the bigget problem for socialism, how to start in 1 place and not die in front of the selfish monter of the capitalist society.

7- Again. Mixed systems will have to work until the entire world is ready for a complete change in the economy and social values. Until then we should work in stoping the growing tendence in the gap between rich and poor. By doing that we will also save millions of lives that today are lost simply because they don't have something to eat.

8- That is an individualist perspective and it was finally imposed arround the world in the last half century. 50 years ago (my fathers tell me about it) one of the most important social values in my country was to share with your neighbor. They were poor but if someone in town needed something, someone else was there to help him and if u were a selfish neighbor you were socially marked as a bad member of the society. The ppl that wrote this stupid manifest were bad neighbors, thats for sure.

9- I think this statement is a little out of date

10- Socialism is an horizon and there are many point of vies on how to get there but they all share a basic idea: Only together we can make a better society. If eveyone walks their own path then only a few will have a good life and the rest will die unhappy and poor. Is that what we want for our future?

WORKING MEN!

Follow the socialist dream. Not for a selfish reason. For the good of man kind.

Freedom is an illusion.
Here... have a nice bite from this lovely apple. I know they said you couldn't have it... but imagine! You could become like unto God!



= walks away, ticking walking staff upon the marble floors =

Corran Horn wrote:*adds some spice to the discussion*

Oh nice conservatives' propangada we've here

sooo, How many socialist countries have actually became successful in equality of the classes?

I'd say 0.

Yes, that statement is old, but it did the job

Gatedialer wrote:sooo, How many socialist countries have actually became successful in equality of the classes?

I'd say 0.

0. More general question: How many socialist countries have actually became successful?

Again: 0

AEgidius, I see, doesn't understand how the world works (don't ya worry, AEgidius, you're not alone), and you confuse causes with results (I need to change the book in my sig )

"Liberation theology" is one of main reasons why South America is a disgrace for human race (apart from that, it's a beautiful place). God bless John Paul II!

Digression: Chavez has OIL. he can sell that oil (contributing to the drop in oil prices) and finance his programs. But at the end of the day the crisis in Venezuela and demoralization of society will be even worse.

One thing I have to agree to: socialism close the gap between rich and poor. By destroying the rich (except of a few top government officials, their families and friends and friends' friends - I call that MAFIA - which are extremely wealthy with the money they took from the others against their will)

And why you all socialism-lovers won't move to Cuba or North Korea?


Follow the socialists! And shoot them in the back...

Corran Horn wrote:Yes, that statement is old, but it did the job

Gatedialer wrote:sooo, How many socialist countries have actually became successful in equality of the classes?

I'd say 0.

0. More general question: How many socialist countries have actually became successful?

Again: 0

the way a market-centric individualits mind thinks of succes is economical succes and succes against the person next to. So if a country has to suck resources from an other country making their ppl more poor u still call it succes. I consider myself a succesful person since I have a family that loves me and I study what I like (physics) but I don't expect to make tons of money from it and I will never use a person next to me to fill my pokets. From your point of view I'm a looser but there are other ways to see the world my friends.

AEgidius, I see, doesn't understand how the world works (don't ya worry, AEgidius, you're not alone), and you confuse causes with results (I need to change the book in my sig )

I don't worry

"Liberation theology" is one of main reasons why South America is a disgrace for human race (apart from that, it's a beautiful place). God bless John Paul II!

I picture you, going down from a caravel in the coast of Brazil with a machingun in your hands and Ratzinger next to you yelling: evangelise them all!

Digression: Chavez has OIL. he can sell that oil (contributing to the drop in oil prices) and finance his programs. But at the end of the day the crisis in Venezuela and demoralization of society will be even worse.

Sure, chavez is a monster. He is puting the money from the oil in South America instead of giving it away to the central world. Now most of the ppl in Venezuela that didn't have identity can vote and they can even read! ahhhh
He is an enemy of the free world! Let burn him alive and put an other puppet of the USA like the one in Colombia.

One thing I have to agree to: socialism close the gap between rich and poor. By destroying the rich (except of a few top government officials, their families and friends and friends' friends - I call that MAFIA - which are extremely wealthy with the money they took from the others against their will)

A strong state doesn't mean a centralized state. The USSR totally failed in that field and they let Stalin destroy all what was socialist in there. Thats is a lesson for the future socialist proyects. Put the government the closer to the ppl as posible as fast as u can.

And why you all socialism-lovers won't move to Cuba or North Korea?

Because we want socialism in our own countries and who told u that I like every aspect of Cuban system or North Corean System. They have the guts to face capitalism in its own face but Cuba is not perfect and less than less North Corea.

Socialism is not a religion mate, we must be critic or we will make lots of mistakes, or ever worst we will end thinking about socialism like u think about capitalism

Follow the socialists! And shoot them in the back...

This final line was writen by your "dr stangelove like" hand, wasn't it?

AEgidius wrote:the way a market-centric individualits mind thinks of succes is economical succes and succes against the person next to. So if a country has to suck resources from an other country making their ppl more poor u still call it succes.

Examples plz?

AEgidius wrote: I consider myself a succesful person since I have a family that loves me and I study what I like (physics) but I don't expect to [make tons of money from it and I will never use a person next to me to fill my pokets. From your point of view I'm a looser but there are other ways to see the world my friends.

don't mix personal success with the success of a country. if you're happy that means your.e successful. i'd say the country is successful when ppl in it are successful. now, if ppl can't be successful somewhere, they're trying to move somewhere else. the fact is they move to countries offering more freedom. those are capitalist countries mostly. of course, sbdy can move to cuba (unless he's american and no journalist)

I picture you, going down from a caravel in the coast of Brazil with a machingun in your hands and Ratzinger next to you yelling: evangelise them all!

that's me here:

Sure, chavez is a monster. He is puting the money from the oil in South America instead of giving it away to the central world. Now most of the ppl in Venezuela that didn't have identity

no identity??? i'm sure you wanted to say something else here

can vote and they can even read! ahhhh
He is an enemy of the free world! Let burn him alive and put an other puppet of the USA like the one in Colombia.

don't know the guy in colombia. also i don't like american puppets as they are now. they resemble soviet puppets too much (maybe not in their ideas but in the way they operate)

A strong state doesn't mean a centralized state.

true. even more than that: the more centralized a state is, the weaker it is.

The USSR totally failed in that field and they let Stalin destroy all what was socialist in there. Thats is a lesson for the future socialist proyects. Put the government the closer to the ppl as posible as fast as u can.

leave the ppl alone!!!!! they know what's good for them!!!! any government "close to ppl" is a totalitarian monster.

And why you all socialism-lovers won't move to Cuba or North Korea?

Because we want socialism in our own countries and who told u that I like every aspect of Cuban system or North Corean System. They have the guts to face capitalism in its own face but Cuba is not perfect and less than less North Corea.

Socialism is not a religion mate, we must be critic or we will make lots of mistakes, or ever worst we will end thinking about socialism like u think about capitalism

actually, socialism IS A RELIGION. it's based on faith in principles that have always everywhere failed, that not only cannot be proved, but can be easily disproved.

Follow the socialists! And shoot them in the back...

This final line was writen by your "dr stangelove like" hand, wasn't it?

dunno who that guy is and yes, sometimes i notice my third hand appears


as a physicist you should understand this:

society and the economy works like water in a jar at a temperature of 0°C. it's always changing that way or the other (water: liquid to solid and solid to liquid) and nobody can anticipate the changes.

the only way to make it either ice or liquid water is to change the conditions (temperature, pressure). this is an external intervention. there's nothing water inside the jar can do 'bout it.

we are sitting inside this jar.

capitalism promoting individual freedom is the natural way of things in accordance with the way the whole system works. rich go bankrupt, poor achieve wealth, markets go up and down, unemployment is sometimes higher sometimes lower. we may like it or not, but that's just the way it is.

socialism is when some part of the water decides that it's good to be ice (or liquid, but let's say it's ice for the sake of the argument) and it's evil to be liquid. this is ok. they have right to do this and become ice.
but because they BELIEVE in this and because they're a good water molecules, wishing everybody the best, they want everyone else to be ice and, as they are skillful politicians, gain more and more power and start FORCING everyone to turn into ice.
as a physicist you know this attempt has to fail.
as a result that part that for some reasons woul'd like to be liquid becomes enslaved, as ther's no way outta the jar.
(there's more ideologies working like that, socialism is just one of them)

that's why the worst thing we have in this world is visas. you want to move somewhere, but either your country won't let you emigrate or the country you want to go to won't let you in. (think of a country as of a jar with water)

Gatedialer wrote:sooo, How many socialist countries have actually became successful in equality of the classes?

I'd say 0.

And for capitalist countries, it's like infinite...oh wait that was a sarcasm
They don't "change nothing" they just grow inequalities, which is even worse!
Richs become richers and most of rest fall down, and then the one hand count of successful poor people who became rich is showed all over to show that capitalism isn't that bad.
All I want is everyone can access most prestigious studies NOT by his $$/€€ but by his own capacities (he's cultured, intelligent but poor BUT deserves it more than a stupid rich guy who could take his place and fail at the end: wasted a potential successful guy for a rich failure)
What I mean is, you are rich or poor, does NOT matter, what counts for us is your talent and intelligence!

Dark Apophis The Great ™ wrote:

Gatedialer wrote:sooo, How many socialist countries have actually became successful in equality of the classes?

I'd say 0.

And for capitalist countries, it's like infinite...oh wait that was a sarcasm
They don't "change nothing" they just grow inequalities, which is even worse!
Richs become richers and most of rest fall down, and then the one hand count of successful poor people who became rich is showed all over to show that capitalism isn't that bad.
All I want is everyone can access most prestigious studies NOT by his $$/€€ but by his own capacities (he's cultured, intelligent but poor BUT deserves it more than a stupid rich guy who could take his place and fail at the end: wasted a potential successful guy for a rich failure)
What I mean is, you are rich or poor, does NOT matter, what counts for us is your talent and intelligence!

I can name atleast 25.

USA - Successful
UK- Successful
Australia - Successful
Japan - Successful (particularly a good example, after being opened up, their economy grew IMMENSELY due to capitalism)
South Korea - Successful (much like japan)
Singapore - Successful
Ireland - Successful
Iceland - Successful

Give me a list of socialist countries that became successful that matches this and you win. Capitalism creates wealth FOR ALL, if you say otherwise how is the U.S. STILL in the top #5 for GDP per capita and average income whereas the Soviet Union never had such stats? If you let a capitalist country's economy go on with minimal interference and minimal taxes, that wealth stays in the person's pocket where he can eventually spend it, increasing wealth. WEALTH CREATES JOBS, JOBS CREATE WEALTH.

Theres a thing called scholarships and test scores that prevent stupid rich kids from buying their way in.