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Re: Real Religion... ready to vent
Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:28 am
by Demeisen
if God created everything that means he created the devil. why? why would he do that? why?
and i notice you sidestepped the issue about the different branches of Christianity being wrong. not all can be right. therefore some muct be wrong. how do you know your branch is right? do you claim to know the mind of god? no man/woman/jew/snow-man/snow-jew/snow-woman can claim that ability.
Re: Real Religion... ready to vent
Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:13 am
by Mister Sandman
LiQuiD wrote:if God created everything that means he created the devil. why? why would he do that? why?
and i notice you sidestepped the issue about the different branches of Christianity being wrong. not all can be right. therefore some muct be wrong. how do you know your branch is right? do you claim to know the mind of god? no man/woman/jew/snow-man/snow-jew/snow-woman can claim that ability.
Did God create the devil?
The devil is a fallen angel who rebelled against God.
God did create everything, yes, but he also created every rational creature with free will. Thus, they can sin.
The devil was cast out of heaven for his sin.
It's like saying, why did God let man fall? Why does God let us have a will of our own?
Because God wants us to choose to love and obey him.
He wants our heart, he doesnt want to force us to love him.
Publicly, I will proclaim, I love my God and I shall try my best to obey him.
I don't claim that I know the mind of god. Whenever did I say that?
I didn't side set the issue about the denominations. How do I know that every branch is right? I don't. Simple. I haven't read up on every branch.
However, If the fundamental beliefs are the same then it shouldn't really matter.
The fundamental belief, the fundamental faith, the fundamental core of Christianity.
Hence why I believe that JWs and Mormons arn't "Christian" but, who am I to generalise? Its on a case to case basis.
It's on the individuals heart.
Re: Real Religion... ready to vent
Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:11 am
by Demeisen
so basically any branch of christianity could be wrong, except yours.
its good you are happy and content in your faith. but personally i think you have taken it a bit too far. its turning a good idea into a chore. the bible isnt fact. i went to a catholic school and was taught the bible is not fact. i was taught that it was more of a guide made to teach and inspire, not follow to the letter regardless.
meh its your brain, and washed it has been.
my opinion: its better to have faith in an idea or ideal, not in a concrete set of iron rules and doctrine. follow your own mind and heart, not the words of many random people whose only significance was writing/changing part of the bible.
christianity is about God and the believer. its not a book on a shelf.
Re: Real Religion... ready to vent
Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:50 am
by Mister Sandman
LiQuiD wrote:so basically any branch of christianity could be wrong, except yours.
its good you are happy and content in your faith. but personally i think you have taken it a bit too far. its turning a good idea into a chore. the bible isnt fact. i went to a catholic school and was taught the bible is not fact. i was taught that it was more of a guide made to teach and inspire, not follow to the letter regardless.
meh its your brain, and washed it has been.
my opinion: its better to have faith in an idea or ideal, not in a concrete set of iron rules and doctrine. follow your own mind and heart, not the words of many random people whose only significance was writing/changing part of the bible.
christianity is about God and the believer. its not a book on a shelf.
Excuse me? Any branch of Christianity is right. As long as the fundamentals are kept. There is no escaping the core or essence of what it is to be Christian, and that is indeed faith, repentance and acceptance of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Which goes to say that the bible, the word of God, has to be believed, accepted and practice in ones life. Peoples heart must match their words and actions, visa versa. The bible has to be fact. Catholicism has been misguiding people. You were taught, so therefore you believe everything that your teachers said? Thus, you have no individually.
It seems to be that you have been brain washed, not me.
Why? Because what I know and what I believe in is at my own curiosity with little to no outside people forcing(teaching) me to believe in a certain way. Where as you have been taught to think and act in certain ways because of the Catholic church is clouding your enlightenment.
I heard from a friend, look round at all religions, look around at all people, exchanging words and better ways of life. However, few enact upon good advice and we can see all which is out there. So if the bible is just another book only offering good advice it is meaningless.
The Bible is much more than advice.
A faith and ideals have to be supported with facts and doctrine. Following your own heart is indeed following a iron clad set rules.
Christianity is about having a relationship with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. That is a underlying fundamental. However, it goes on to be if you truely love God, you would want to do right by him.
For as humans we are just "children" and we need Gods words and hands to guide us. And we have established that the bible is Gods word. And by reading his word, and practising what he teaches us, we can grow closer to him.
Note: I do not intend to insult anyone.
Re: Real Religion... ready to vent
Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:55 am
by n3M351s
LiQuiD wrote:and i notice you sidestepped the issue about the different branches of Christianity being wrong. not all can be right. therefore some muct be wrong. how do you know your branch is right?
All denominations are based on the same core beliefs. Over the years different denominations have interpreted things in different ways and branched out into all the hundreds of different sectors. There in no labeling which is right and which is wrong, they may just interpret something differently.
Re: Real Religion... ready to vent
Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:12 pm
by Demeisen
my religious education (RE) in school wasnt religious indoctrination.
we learned of all the major religions. we had several christian denominations in my school. we learned the message of the bible. in RE we were often tasked to write our own interpretation of parts of the bible. we never copied it. knowing it it word for word tells you nothing. knowing the meaning behind the words is whats important.
Mister Sandman wrote:Excuse me? Any branch of Christianity is right. As long as the fundamentals are kept.
correct me if im wrong but some branches use different versions of the bible. are they still right, even though they dont use your bible? are the fundamentals required surprisingly similar to your beliefs? id say yes.
just been looking up the history of the bible. i can only assume you know nothing of its origins and evolution if you believe it is entirely true and divine. the amount of changes and decisions to alter/omit things is astonishing. its hardly the same as as it might have been at its creation is it? (no is the answer you seek)
Re: Real Religion... ready to vent
Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:02 pm
by Mister Sandman
LiQuiD wrote:my religious education (RE) in school wasnt religious indoctrination.
we learned of all the major religions. we had several christian denominations in my school. we learned the message of the bible. in RE we were often tasked to write our own interpretation of parts of the bible. we never copied it. knowing it it word for word tells you nothing. knowing the meaning behind the words is whats important.
Mister Sandman wrote:Excuse me? Any branch of Christianity is right. As long as the fundamentals are kept.
correct me if im wrong but some branches use different versions of the bible. are they still right, even though they dont use your bible? are the fundamentals required surprisingly similar to your beliefs? id say yes.
just been looking up the history of the bible. i can only assume you know nothing of its origins and evolution if you believe it is entirely true and divine. the amount of changes and decisions to alter/omit things is astonishing. its hardly the same as as it might have been at its creation is it? (no is the answer you seek)
Knowing and understanding is more important, but with age one grows in-depth and the understanding changes. Also parts of the bible have different relevance to one at different stages of ones life. You can't tell me you haven't changed your opinion about anything.Since when can you have the fundamentals without the bible. Similar, yes, but that's descriptive. It isn't the same.16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.(2 Timothy 3: 16-17)
Re: Real Religion... ready to vent
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:15 am
by Demeisen
Mister Sandman wrote:Since when can you have the fundamentals without the bible.
yes the bible is fundamental to christianity. however, the bible is not christianity. it is a tool for learning and enlightenment. it is not a set and defined path to achieving religious belief. stating that the bible is totally accurate, true and factual seems cold and narrow minded for a religion which aims to open eyes.
Mister Sandman wrote:You can't tell me you haven't changed your opinion about anything.
of course i have changed my mind many times. everyone has. yet you are unwilling to concede the point that the bible is not an historical, factual and true work. you cannot change your opinion and continue to insist on the bible's accuracy when you are wrong. i
know you are wrong and so does anyone else who does a few minutes of research. religion should bring enlightenment, not make the faithful believe what is patently false.
why cant you change 'your opinion' on the bible? it wouldnt effect your faith at all. you can still see and live by the message conveyed through the bible without considering it as entirely perfect and correct.
im not attacking your beliefs or the bible at all. i merely point out that seeing it in the way you do is not necessary or constructive. it is stifling.
Re: Real Religion... ready to vent
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:11 am
by Mister Sandman
LiQuiD wrote:Mister Sandman wrote:Since when can you have the fundamentals without the bible.
yes the bible is fundamental to christianity. however, the bible is not christianity. it is a tool for learning and enlightenment. it is not a set and defined path to achieving religious belief. stating that the bible is totally accurate, true and factual seems cold and narrow minded for a religion which aims to open eyes.
Mister Sandman wrote:You can't tell me you haven't changed your opinion about anything.
of course i have changed my mind many times. everyone has. yet you are unwilling to concede the point that the bible is not an historical, factual and true work. you cannot change your opinion and continue to insist on the bible's accuracy when you are wrong. i
know you are wrong and so does anyone else who does a few minutes of research. religion should bring enlightenment, not make the faithful believe what is patently false.
why cant you change 'your opinion' on the bible? it wouldnt effect your faith at all. you can still see and live by the message conveyed through the bible without considering it as entirely perfect and correct.
im not attacking your beliefs or the bible at all. i merely point out that seeing it in the way you do is not necessary or constructive. it is stifling.
The bible, as you admittly said, is a fundamental to the Christian faith. However, without one of the fundamentals (which is the basis of Christianity) , I don't think it can be classified as a true faith.
The bible is indeed fact, I haven't seen it been proven wrong. I've only seen translations been presented wrongly.
Why dont you use my quotes in context?
Knowing and understanding is more important, but with age one grows in-depth and the understanding changes. Also parts of the bible have different relevance to one at different stages of ones life. You can't tell me you haven't changed your opinion about anything.
The fact that the Bible is a fact due to the fact that the facts haven't been disproved. Therefore, I am not wrong here, if so, please prove me wrong. If not. Well, look at yourself. You must be wrong. As you say, a few minutes of research could delude somone from believe it in fact, but in-fact they haven't fully read the facts of the bible.
A few minutes could sway somone away from the realisation of the Bible as truth, however, with more time and with more incite and understanding, it does the opposite. It can be done with any question really.
Why can't I change my views about the bible being fact. Because I believe in fact? Simple. It would change the whole ideal of faith if it was not real. And simply put it would be degraded to another "main stream" religion like Islam, or Buddhism (which personally I think Islam is funny).
Re: Real Religion... ready to vent
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:01 pm
by urogard
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Mister Sandman wrote:The fact that the Bible is a fact due to the fact that the facts haven't been disproved. Therefore, I am not wrong here, if so, please prove me wrong.
If A is part of B and B is part of C, it doesn't mean that C is part of A
I say there is a person living today whos name is "fdgjkbwefosdf". Until it's disproved it will remain a fact. As a matter of fact i say there are 46 people with that same name living on earth right now.
Secondly, every grouping which decides to call itself a "religion" and follows their set of rules and beliefs is by defintion a religion. And since the adjective "official" is bs anyway since there is no real boundary how many people need to follow an official religion for it to be considered official it inadvertedly is an official religion.
Although kudos to the people up there who managed to build up control of the masses via sexism, ideas of supremacy and ignorance.
Re: Real Religion... ready to vent
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:14 pm
by Thriller
wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
lol sorry i double posted
Re: Real Religion... ready to vent
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:28 pm
by Thriller
urogard wrote:Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Mister Sandman wrote:The fact that the Bible is a fact due to the fact that the facts haven't been disproved. Therefore, I am not wrong here, if so, please prove me wrong.
If A is part of B and B is part of C, it doesn't mean that C is part of A
I say there is a person living today whos name is "fdgjkbwefosdf". Until it's disproved it will remain a fact. As a matter of fact i say there are 46 people with that same name living on earth right now.
Secondly, every grouping which decides to call itself a "religion" and follows their set of rules and beliefs is by defintion a religion. And since the adjective "official" is bs anyway since there is no real boundary how many people need to follow an official religion for it to be considered official it inadvertedly is an official religion.
lol, remain a fact. Until it's proved otherwise it will remain plausible, not a fact.
Although kudos to the people up there who managed to build up control of the masses via sexism, ideas of supremacy and ignorance.
Your talking about Christianity right?
@Sandman
So god gave us free will (which is cruel if he omniscient). So that we may choose to love him or not(God must have low self esteem). In reality that's not much of choice. On the one hand you have eternal happiness and on the other eternal suffering. Who would not choose the former? IF God really gave us free will for that reason then he should not penalize anyone if they choose not to love him, that is not just. Instead he should trying to earn our love.
It's like a guy who keeps his wife chained in the house and threatens her with death and torture if she tries to leave.
Re: Real Religion... ready to vent
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:21 pm
by Mister Sandman
Thriller wrote:urogard wrote:Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Mister Sandman wrote:The fact that the Bible is a fact due to the fact that the facts haven't been disproved. Therefore, I am not wrong here, if so, please prove me wrong.
If A is part of B and B is part of C, it doesn't mean that C is part of A
I say there is a person living today whos name is "fdgjkbwefosdf". Until it's disproved it will remain a fact. As a matter of fact i say there are 46 people with that same name living on earth right now.
Secondly, every grouping which decides to call itself a "religion" and follows their set of rules and beliefs is by defintion a religion. And since the adjective "official" is bs anyway since there is no real boundary how many people need to follow an official religion for it to be considered official it inadvertedly is an official religion.
lol, remain a fact. Until it's proved otherwise it will remain plausible, not a fact.
Says the evolutionist. A fact is a fact, unless proven otherwise. Its like saying 1=1, that is a fact, however, people can misinterpret the fact. Although kudos to the people up there who managed to build up control of the masses via sexism, ideas of supremacy and ignorance.
Your talking about Christianity right?
@Sandman
So god gave us free will (which is cruel if he omniscient). So that we may choose to love him or not(God must have low self esteem). In reality that's not much of choice. On the one hand you have eternal happiness and on the other eternal suffering. Who would not choose the former? IF God really gave us free will for that reason then he should not penalize anyone if they choose not to love him, that is not just. Instead he should trying to earn our love.
Free will isn't cruel, its what separates us from the animals. To choose to love him or not doesnt even come close about God's "esteem", he is beyond "esteem". God so loved us that he wanted us to love him back, without being forced.
Who would choose to burn in hell. I don't think anyone would.
However, peoples minds have been manipulated by the devil.
God wants your eternal soul. So does the devil. However, God isn't going to force you to love him, and the devil is going to try drag you to hell.
God doesnt need to earn our love. If anything, we don't deserve his love.
bible wrote:John 3:16-21
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
f. John 3:16 Or his only begotten Son
g. John 3:18 Or God's only begotten Son
Thriller wrote:It's like a guy who keeps his wife chained in the house and threatens her with death and torture if she tries to leave
That is not giving free will.
Re: Real Religion... ready to vent
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:14 pm
by Thriller
Thriller wrote:It's like a guy who keeps his wife chained in the house and threatens her with death and torture if she tries to leave
That is not giving free will.
Well that is a good example of the reality of the "choice" that god is giving us.
Now I'm not saying this to show their is no god, just that alot of the bible does not present the idea of God you try to preach.
Re: Real Religion... ready to vent
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:51 pm
by Mister Sandman
Thriller wrote:Thriller wrote:It's like a guy who keeps his wife chained in the house and threatens her with death and torture if she tries to leave
That is not giving free will.
Well that is a good example of the reality of the "choice" that god is giving us.
Now I'm not saying this to show their is no god, just that alot of the bible does not present the idea of God you try to preach.
Its not even a mild example of the reality of choice.