Genetral EU discussion.

[MEZZANINE]

Much as I hate the idea of a European Federation ( United States of Europe lol ), I must admit I like this move, basically any country that rejects it must admit they dont want to be in the EU.

Are they also reporting how Goldman Sachs and many people from the media are bragging that Goldman now owns Europe?

I don't understand how you of all people can say that. the banks caused all this, you know that, i know it and so does everybody else. example, in Iceland, once the people got their hands on the facts it was revealed to the whole nation that upwards of 90% of the nations debt was NOT owed by the people but by the banks who had been gambling with their customers money. when the justifiably outraged people of Iceland told the banks and bankers to go screw themselves, Iceland was branded by the UK media as a terrorist nation.
This is the EXACT same situation in every nation that has needed to bailout it's banking system...the bankers need to be brought to book for financial terrorism...


Have you heard what John Corzine has done in the US causing MF Global to collapse, and taking with it all the customers money?

The banks are to blame for most of the recent problems yes, BUT many nations governments are also to blame for borrowing to pay for increased living standards so they could win elections. They put their nations into decades of debt for the sake of short term political gain.

National borrowing should be for single large expenses like infrastructure projects, no nation should ever borrow to pay for social spending.

Remember in the UK the Labour party was incredibly popular for over a decade because of all the social benefits & spending, but when the crapola hit the fan everyone realised that the irresponsible spending that kept getting Labour re-elected was unsustainable.


IMO this move by the EU to control the spending of it's member states ( though I hate the fact it's another step towards Federation ) is a very good thing.

[[KMA]Avenger]

Sorry me ol chum, i have to disagree, the EU is not moving towards an EU federation run by some unelected moronic mob in the EU parliament building. what's happening is this, the banks created the problem, they then blackmailed the US congress to bailout all the banks (the FED has been bailing out everyone) otherwise and i quote "there will be martial law if you do not support the bailouts and TARP". The US congress was held to ransom to force the ball to start rolling on the printing presses, and they haven't turned them off since 08, hence all the inflation of the past 2 years.

Once that had started, they then started bringing down nation after nation with their respective Govts help. Now they openly say that the only solution is more integration and world Govt controlled by the banks.

Understand that if the EU integrates even more it will be an absolute disaster for sovereignty and freedom.

The bottom line is this, the banks created the problem and they are the ones offering the solution, that's like me blowing my foot off and someone then tells me that if i blow the other foot off as well all will be hunky dory, and i believe it.

If this goes through, no nation will be able to leave it EVER, they will wholly run by the banks. on top of that, mark my words. IF this is allowed to happen, taxes will go through the roof (as if they are not high enough already) and living standards all over the world will fall through the floor.

[Brdavs]

The only problem with that theory is that THE BANKS ARE ALREADY RUNNING THE WORLD.

National states have been a virtual non factor power wise for the past 30 years. It's capitalism so capital rules.

It's really quite irrelevant who the patsie is, the EU, washington or the UK PM.




Plus this rambilngs of yours are doubly ironic since the move of continental EU is to regulate the banks more and UK is staying out to protect the City itself from getting regulated.

So yea, you've achieved victory against the agenda of the banks by... fighting to keep them unregulated and unconstrained. Good logic that.

All in all great result. UK started to drift away and the pace on the continent can now pick up. Too bad this didn't happen like 20 years ago.

[MEZZANINE]

The only problem with that theory is that THE BANKS ARE ALREADY RUNNING THE WORLD.

National states have been a virtual non factor power wise for the past 30 years. It's capitalism so capital rules.

It's really quite irrelevant who the patsie is, the EU, washington or the UK PM.




Plus this rambilngs of yours are doubly ironic since the move of continental EU is to regulate the banks more and UK is staying out to protect the City itself from getting regulated.

So yea, you've achieved victory against the agenda of the banks by... fighting to keep them unregulated and unconstrained. Good logic that.

All in all great result. UK started to drift away and the pace on the continent can now pick up. Too bad this didn't happen like 20 years ago.

As I already said, one of the problems we have in the UK is reliance on the banks for income, since the 80s we have moved from production and manufacturing to banking and services.

We would all welcome the security of international banking regulation.

BUT

The banking regulation you refer to as being suggested by the EU is not international so it would drive financial services out of the UK to 'non-regulated' lower taxed countries, and it's really not regulation at all, it's simply taxation. The suggested taxation they want to impose would be paid to the EU not the nations involved so as the biggest financial service provider in Europe the UK would be paying 30% of the new suggested tax. Thats simply not fair and we dont want it !!!

Now why do the EU want to introduce this tax ? Nope not to regulate banks, they want it to raise money to pay for all the bailouts.





On the subject of controlling member states budgets, I support this only if as far as if it is a condition of the ECB to print money buy up the bonds of the nations who are in trouble. Since the ECB has now said they will NOT buy up these bonds the budget control becomes pointless.



IMO and the opinion of many economists and politicians the Euro experiment needs to end now, having a single currency with a one size fits no-body interest rate and no ability to use quantitative easing for so many different countries is an epic fail and wont work no matter how much money you throw at it. The EU should be down graded back to the time when it worked, when it was simply a trade pact between a few relatively comparable economies.






On the conspiracy theory of banks wanting to rule the world I just laugh, they dont want to rule, ruling and governing are hard work and those that do it are hated by the people. The banks dont want to rule, they want to own, to trade ( gamble ) freely, and have us guarantee there losses.

[[KMA]Avenger]

So yea, you've achieved victory against the agenda of the banks by... fighting to keep them unregulated and unconstrained. Good logic that.

I don't know whose posts you've been reading but they sure ain't mine!


Show me just 1 instance where i have said i want the banks to stay deregulated and i will print the words and eat them and then post the video on YouTube for the whole world to see. and you can take that to the bank!

[[KMA]Avenger]

On the conspiracy theory of banks wanting to rule the world I just laugh, they dont want to rule, ruling and governing are hard work and those that do it are hated by the people. The banks dont want to rule, they want to own, to trade ( gamble ) freely, and have us guarantee there losses.

How can you still call it a"theory"? who engineered the whole thing first by using lobbyists to lift all the regulations put in place to stop the creation of junk financial instruments? who then created 2 quadrillion $ worth of debt? who then bribed government officials to sign the people of whole nations on to the debt? who was it that got bailed out after they engaged in reckless gambling on financial instruments that were worth less than toilet roll with crap all over it? if this is the peoples debt as the banks and economists say it is, why haven't the people been bailed out? have you looked into the MF Global scandal yet? if not, i suggest you do, MF global raided segregated bank accounts. and now that 3 billion of customers money has gone missing, John Corzine CEO of MF Global has the front to tell the US congress "i don't know where the money is".


"Theory" my arse!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnbNm6ho ... r_embedded


PS, also have a look at the new Italian and Greek PM's, all Goldman Sachs alumni. there are MANY others holding governmental positions in more country's than i can recall who are all ex-Goldman Sachs.
John Corzine, ex-GmS. his lieutenant at GmS was Garry Gensler, Garry Gensler has been missing for a month. he went on to be head of the CFTC (chairman of the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission under President Barack Obama.) who was supposed to be head of the regulatory people regulating company's (such as MF Global) who deal in commodity's. i'm SUUUUUUURE Garry knew nothing of what his buddy was doing, it's just a coincidence (or theory) that he's been missing for a month. and the fact that all the top investors where warned to get their money out of MF Global 2 weeks before MFG collapsed is all nothing more than a coincidence...sorry, i mean theory.

The banks are behind all this and they are robbing everyone 10 ways from Sunday. they don't need to come out and declare themselves our masters, why the hell would the Rothschild's do something so stupid as to come out and tell us they rule the world when they can have their puppets in Govt and their lieutenants (such as Corzine, Garry Gensler and the rest of them) in other areas do all their dirty work for them?


But what the hell do i know...it's not as if upwards of 7 years reading and digging can be called anything but theorising

[MEZZANINE]

@ KMA,

You post some very interesting stuff but please leave the conspiracy theories out of it, it lower the overwise very high credibility you have.


The banks are no more evil, unethical or looking to take over the world than any other large corporate institutions, Banking, Oil, Guns, Drugs, even manufacturing to a lesser degree all lobby governments for changes in laws/regs that suite themselves and allow them to make more money regardless of who it hurts or what damage it does to the environment.

The reason banks have been able to hurt us in what we call the 'western' or 'developed' world is because we allowed them to grow into the monster they are, lulled into false security we enjoyed the boom times and closed out eyes to the inevitable bust on the horizon. And why did we close our eyes and let the banks go out of control, because we are just as greedy as them and wanted our cut.

[[KMA]Avenger]

@ KMA,

You post some very interesting stuff but please leave the conspiracy theories out of it, it lower the overwise very high credibility you have.


The banks are no more evil, unethical or looking to take over the world than any other large corporate institutions, Banking, Oil, Guns, Drugs, even manufacturing to a lesser degree all lobby governments for changes in laws/regs that suite themselves and allow them to make more money regardless of who it hurts or what damage it does to the environment.

The reason banks have been able to hurt us in what we call the 'western' or 'developed' world is because we allowed them to grow into the monster they are, lulled into false security we enjoyed the boom times and closed out eyes to the inevitable bust on the horizon. And why did we close our eyes and let the banks go out of control, because we are just as greedy as them and wanted our cut.

While you post some truths (such as everyone being greedy), i have to lol at the rest, especially that you still think this is a theory.

I'll give you some credit, it's not like i never told you how bad the banks are before now

[[KMA]Avenger]

I don't know if you would be interested in this 30 minute film which is a satirical look into the banking system (very funny and conspiracy free, i assure you), BUT here it is anyways: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPWH5Tlb ... ideo_title

If you are interested in something more detailed with regards to the banks (also conspiracy free), i HIGHLY recommend a film called The Money Masters which you can also find on YT. it's 3.5 hours long but made in chapters so it's easy to watch.

Both are American made but apply to any country with a privately owned central bank. the money masters looks at banking from a historical POV, so should interest you if you like history....

If your not interested then let me know and i wont bother you again with films like this. oh, btw, both films are VERY easily researched for yourself since all of the contents of those 2 films are public the public domain. and as i said, none are about conspiracy "theory's", they are conspiracy fact because they are on record.


Enjoy the rest of your weekend


Edit: http://www.cyberclass.net/tragedy.htm

[[KMA]Avenger]

@all you EU supporters...read this and then tell me again how good the EU and all it's austerity plans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16472310

[Legendary Apophis]

@all you EU supporters...read this and then tell me again how good the EU and all it's austerity plans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16472310

What are you expecting from me, that I suddenly change side and become a hardcore hater of EU?
I am over the "changing my mind as often as I change cloths" you know.
I prefer to see the background too rather than just jumping offended while reading an article like the one you provided.

As problematic as it is, Greece isn't really the most exemplary country regarding tax evading, corruption and other similar things. I think that changing their behavior in the current context (I'm talking about the evaders and other frauds) would be saving them from further austerity which would again fail and bring them into an austerity loophole even more than there already is. First victims of this generalized evasion and corruption are obviously honest payers. Rather than solely denouncing the effects and only parts of the causes of the situation (Goldman Sachs), I think it's better to consider also the other main factors.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial ... surowiecki

(...)
According to a remarkable presentation that a member of Greece’s central bank gave last fall, the gap between what Greek taxpayers owed last year and what they paid was about a third of total tax revenue, roughly the size of the country’s budget deficit. The “shadow economy”—business that’s legal but off the books—is larger in Greece than in almost any other European country, accounting for an estimated 27.5 per cent of its G.D.P. (In the United States, by contrast, that number is closer to nine per cent.) And the culture of evasion has negative consequences beyond the current crisis. It means that the revenue burden falls too heavily on honest taxpayers. It makes the system unduly regressive, since the rich cheat more. And it’s wasteful: it forces the government to spend extra money on collection (relative to G.D.P., Greece spends four times as much collecting income taxes as the U.S. does), even as evaders are devoting plenty of time and energy to hiding their income.

Greece, it seems, has struggled with the first rule of a healthy tax system: enforce the law. People are more likely to be honest if they feel there’s a reasonable chance that dishonesty will be detected and punished. But Greek tax officials were notoriously easy to bribe with a fakelaki (small envelope) of cash. There was little political pressure for tougher enforcement. On the contrary: a recent study showed that enforcement of the tax laws loosened in the months leading up to elections, because incumbents didn’t want to annoy voters and contributors. Even when the system did track down evaders, it was next to impossible to get them to pay up, because the tax courts typically took seven to ten years to resolve a case. As of last February, they had a backlog of three hundred thousand cases.

It isn’t just a matter of lax enforcement, though. Greek citizens also have what social scientists call very low “tax morale.” In most developed countries, tax-compliance rates are much higher than a calculation of risks would imply. We don’t pay our taxes just because we’re afraid of getting caught; we also feel a responsibility to contribute to the common good. But that sense of responsibility comes with conditions. We’re generally what the Swiss behavioral economist Benno Torgler calls “social taxpayers”: we’ll chip in as long as we have faith that our fellow-citizens are doing the same, and that our government is basically legitimate. Countries where people feel that they have some say in how the state acts, and where there are high levels of trust, tend to have high rates of tax compliance. That may be why Americans, despite being virulently anti-tax in their rhetoric, are notably compliant taxpayers.

Greeks, by contrast, see fraud and corruption as ubiquitous in business, in the tax system, and even in sports. And they’re right to: Transparency International recently put Greece in a three-way tie, with Bulgaria and Romania, as the most corrupt country in Europe.

(...)
Read more http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial ... z1j8noCLcR

As the author says in the end of the article (not quoted), a policy shift isn't sufficient, a cultural shift is what would be required. Cultural shift regarding tax evasion and corruption related to it, of course.

[LuBu]

Well i'm British, so my view on this is already predetermined like many people I know around me. I could spend hours ranting about how the EU is doing us over, but I see you have already a lengthy discussioin without the need for me to rant. This tax is ridiculous in my view, but that is one very biased view indeed, just ignore me.

The suggested taxation they want to impose would be paid to the EU not the nations involved so as the biggest financial service provider in Europe the UK would be paying 30% of the new suggested tax. Thats simply not fair and we dont want it !!!

I've heard some sources say it's going to be around London paying 80% of the suggested tax, hence why so much of the media here in Britain are dubbing it a "EU tax on London". That doesn't sound fair to me.

There is already fear that if it goes ahead, many of the financial services in the UK would move abroad, most likely to the US where it would be cheaper. If this is true we lose one of the main sectors in this country.




Fact: Sweden tried a similar tax in the 80s, and lost most of their thriving financial sector at the time. They all went abroad to avoid it, mainly to the Uk/London. They still haven't fully recovered from it, and they are another Euro Country not supportive of it because they know the results of doing such a thing. We don't want that.

Found one source saying it http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/01/09/eu-transaction-tax-idUKL6E8C92DT20120109:

WHAT ARE THE HURDLES TO IMPOSING THE TAX?

Critics warn that such a tax simply scares off traders. Sweden, one of the most outspoken opponents of the idea, saw trading migrate from Stockholm to London when it introduced its own levy in the mid-1980s.

[MEZZANINE]

@ LuBu, Im not going back to the subject of the financial services tax, it's too absurd to be worthy of further comment.

@ KMA, much as I hate the EU and all crap it dumps on us that article is totally out of context. You look at any nation and you will find children dumped on social services by parents who WONT support them, usually not because unemployment benefits are too low, but because of bad budgeting and spending the benefits on other things like fancy clothing, entertainment, drugs & alcohol. Basically people out of work expect to much for free and have the wrong priorities.

How much do Greek people get on unemployment, child support & housing benefits ? And whats their minimum cost of subsistence living ?

@ LA, Greece should never have been allowed into the EU, nor should several other countries, their entry requirements were fiddled for the purpose of idealised expansion and federalisation, now many people throughout Europe are paying a heavy price for the dreams of the nutters at the top.

Re Greeks not paying their taxes, well in the UK millions rioted and refused to pay the Poll Tax in the early 90s, push people to far and they simply say NO we wont pay.

[[KMA]Avenger]

What are you expecting from me, that I suddenly change side and become a hardcore hater of EU?
I am over the "changing my mind as often as I change cloths" you know.
I prefer to see the background too rather than just jumping offended while reading an article like the one you provided.

1stly, happy new year to you Jim, and everyone else as well!

Jim, i'm not trying to tell you what you should believe in and what you should not, what you should support, and what to think. i know i come across as "preachy" but i'm not preaching to you or anyone else. the tone of my posts and convo only comes from passion and not knowing how to hide or tone down that passion.

Above all else, i believe in freedom and liberty, free to think, to work, to play to live how i choose to live so long as i do NO harm and commit no fraud. i HATE with a PASSION ANY organisation, institution or group of people who trespass into my freedom, ESPECIALLY those organisations, institutions and people whom i did select, elect and who seek to impose their will over me without my consent. i am also against ANY person/s who are from outside my country who seek to tell my leaders what laws they have to have.

Tell me what difference there is between any totalitarian state from the pages of history and the EU? the answer is none. all totalitarian regimes believe in one thing above all, TOTAL Govt. the only difference is how they go about implementing TOTAL Govt. even Hitler said in 1931 that there was no difference between National Socialism and Communism...by the same token, the EU is no better because they believe in what the Nazis and the communists believed, centralised Govt...in short, total Govt. as i said, the ONLY difference is the details. there is no difference if you have some jackbooted thug beating you over the head because he is an enforcer for a tyrannical regime, and some unelected moron who couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag forcing MY Govt to implement laws that affect how i live, the end result is the same. I HAVE NO FREEDOM AND LIVE UNDER FEAR OF MY GOVT, which makes decision without the consent of the governed....

If you think that is an extremist POV, i beg to differ. it is the POV of someone who wants to BE FREE, and is SICK to death of paying ever increasing taxes and the cost of living for absolutely no reason other than to enrich a few fat slack jawed thieving lying bankers who have the entire world in their debt!


PS, America grew to be the richest nation on the planet BAR NONE because they were the freest nation with the smallest Govt man had ever created. that's what sovereignty and freedom can do for ALL man kind.
Freedom allows us to prosper, to create wealth, to lift ourselves from poverty, which ultimately will take us to a place that is free from war, from hatred, from bigotry, from racism allowing us to concentrate on scientific and spiritual exploration...no i am not promoting some "utopia" or other crap like that!

[[KMA]Avenger]

France gets a credit downgrade by S&P, from AAA to AA. I've been listening to a few economic experts who are saying this is not a 1 off, there's going to be another credit downgrading for France coming this year....

Not having a dig at you Jim, or anything like that, i'm simply relaying the latest economic news with relation to the EU.

This is NOT good news at all!