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Kit-Fox wrote:No its not based on

the right of self definition

thats just the most modern base for your claim, it is not the original nor is it the only its just the most recent.

and may you please educate me on what is our original claim?
and i would be thrilled if, for a change, a refernce will be brought to the table.

EDIT: and, even if it's not the original, is it any less legitimate a claim for that?

Well lets just look at a couple shall we.

First there is the religous claim that the land currently known as Israel was promised to the Jews by god.

Secondly there is the claim that the Jewish people lived in the area known currently as Israel for many generations before been turfed off by others, and as such the land should be returned to them as it is rightfully theirs.

Both claims as i'm sure you are well aware have problems with them.

Kit-Fox wrote:Well lets just look at a couple shall we.

First there is the religous claim that the land currently known as Israel was promised to the Jews by god.

the modern zionist national movement was founded by binyamin ze'ev theodore herzl, after witnessing the anti-semitism in europe, over a 120 years ago. he cocluded that the Jews must have a country of their own, to best defend themselves.
as you very well know, europe of the mid 1800's was the scene of what is known as the spring of nations, in which the right of self determination (to which i have previously refered as the right of self definition), was cited as claim for the establishement of noumerous states.
herzl, please note, was secular.

Kit-Fox wrote:Secondly there is the claim that the Jewish people lived in the area known currently as Israel for many generations before been turfed off by others, and as such the land should be returned to them as it is rightfully theirs.

the decision to choose the land of Israel as a territory for the new Jewish state was infact the historical connection between the Jewish people and that land. and honestly, i don't see anything wrong with that.

Kit-Fox wrote:Both claims as i'm sure you are well aware have problems with them.

the validity of the religious claim, as i have previously stated, has nothing to do with modern day Israel.
the other claim, as i have just stated, i don't see anything wrong with.
you might want to point the problem out to me.

Hitchkok wrote:you might want to point the problem out to me.

you mean, aside from the theft of land and all the murdering of innocent men woman and children that's been going on for the past 65 years because you lot didn't have a "home" of your own?

[KMA]Avenger wrote:

Hitchkok wrote:you might want to point the problem out to me.

you mean, aside from the theft of land and all the murdering of innocent men woman and children that's been going on for the past 65 years because you lot didn't have a "home" of your own?

this has been discussed so many times in this thread it's not even funny.
the word frustrating comes to mind...
but again: can you bring any backing to this ridicolus murder accusation?

and please define "theft of land", and demonstrate how it applies in the case in question.

not to mention you are failing to address my question:
what is the problem with choosing the land of Israel as a territory for the Jewish state?

and i do hope this is the last time we see such blatantly out of context quotes in this discussion.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:

Hitchkok wrote:you might want to point the problem out to me.

you mean, aside from the theft of land and all the murdering of innocent men woman and children that's been going on for the past 65 years because you lot didn't have a "home" of your own?

Your missing a trick there KMA

How far back do we go? Should we give the US & Austrailia back to the indigineous peoples of those countries? Should the Roman Catholic CHurch demand the return of the Hagia Sophia??

Where does it stop, you have to draw a line under losses (if they are even losses at all in the first place in the case of the Jews & Israel) of all sorts eventually as if you dont you open up a whole can of worms the world over & the Jews just have to learn this like the rest of us have.

Besides you never lost the land to start with, there is no major archeological evidence to show that Jews were the first major civilisation to exist in the area currently known as Israel. And even from the date Jewish artefacts start to appear, there is no evidence that Jews were either a) in charge or b) living in anything more than small groups in already established city states.

EDIT: and the religous claim has just as much to do with todays state of Israel as the others thanks to the blurring of the lines between religion & state that exists in the Jewish state. Next I suppose you'l lbe telling me that those arabs who do live in Israel arent constantly harrassed or find themselves suffering punative actions by the state for actions outside of their control?

Can't everyone just get along?

What is so bad about a proposed "two-state" solution?

I admit my knowledge on the history of both Israel and Palestine is limited, but if a war which is based in part over land, goes on for so long. Is anyone really a "winner"

Hitchkok wrote:

[KMA]Avenger wrote:

Hitchkok wrote:you might want to point the problem out to me.

you mean, aside from the theft of land and all the murdering of innocent men woman and children that's been going on for the past 65 years because you lot didn't have a "home" of your own?

this has been discussed so many times in this thread it's not even funny.
the word frustrating comes to mind...
but again: can you bring any backing to this ridicolus murder accusation?

and please define "theft of land", and demonstrate how it applies in the case in question.

not to mention you are failing to address my question:
what is the problem with choosing the land of Israel as a territory for the Jewish state?

and i do hope this is the last time we see such blatantly out of context quotes in this discussion.

dont take me for either a fool or blind, i dont take you for a fool, but i do think your as blind as they come!

OH, and just 1 more thing:

here's another charge of crimes against humanity committed by Israel: http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=h ... f6d6a096b2

[KMA]Avenger wrote:

Hitchkok wrote:you might want to point the problem out to me.

you mean, aside from the theft of land and all the murdering of innocent men woman and children that's been going on for the past 65 years because you lot didn't have a "home" of your own?

That is completely absurd.

Kit-Fox wrote:And Israels claim is based on the fact that they murdered & commited genocide to clear the land of its original inhabitants. Seriously, its in your own religious books that

God promised?? If he promised why did he require you to kill (which is against his word) to claim the land.

Also to JT, Israel survives even surrounded by those who dont like/appreciate it because it is backed both economically & militarily by the US. Without this backing Israel would not survive in a conflict with its neighbours.

I beg to differ there bud, That land is the land flowing with milk and honey, and IF the USA ever forsook Israel surely as I am typing this reply the USA will crumble and fall.."For I will bless those that bless you and I will curse those that curse you"

And please DO NOT quote anything from wikepedia. If you cannot take the time to investigate things on your own in a NON internet surf fashion then you are but standing on shaky ground with your arguments.

Jedi~Tank wrote:

[KMA]Avenger wrote:

Hitchkok wrote:you might want to point the problem out to me.

you mean, aside from the theft of land and all the murdering of innocent men woman and children that's been going on for the past 65 years because you lot didn't have a "home" of your own?

That is completely absurd.

says you, i doubt the dead on both sides would see it your way!

Jedi~Tank wrote:

Kit-Fox wrote:And Israels claim is based on the fact that they murdered & commited genocide to clear the land of its original inhabitants. Seriously, its in your own religious books that

God promised?? If he promised why did he require you to kill (which is against his word) to claim the land.

Also to JT, Israel survives even surrounded by those who dont like/appreciate it because it is backed both economically & militarily by the US. Without this backing Israel would not survive in a conflict with its neighbours.

I beg to differ there bud, That land is the land flowing with milk and honey, and IF the USA ever forsook Israel surely as I am typing this reply the USA will crumble and fall.."For I will bless those that bless you and I will curse those that curse you"

LMAO...what planet are you living on "bud"? the US is crumbling anyway, every single nation on this planet is looking to dump the dollar as the worlds currency and are also wanting to trade oil in any currency except dollars, and you think the US is fine and dandy?


flowing with milk and honey?! i assume your referring to the Israeli side of the fence?

there's 1 thing about this particular topic that stands out like boy George at a gymnasium, and that's the absolute BS that comes out of the Israeli and Israeli supporters side

man, you must really think we are as gullible as a child if you think that last post of yours has any credibility in our eyes


i curse Israel, not because of their race, religion or creed, but because of Israelis blatant acts of crimes against humanity and its conduct towards its very own allies...there...i said it, and as sure as i'm writing this response...i'm positive God would agree with me...in fact, i would bet my life most of the world would agree with me as well!

[KMA]Avenger wrote:

Jedi~Tank wrote:

[KMA]Avenger wrote:

Hitchkok wrote:you might want to point the problem out to me.

you mean, aside from the theft of land and all the murdering of innocent men woman and children that's been going on for the past 65 years because you lot didn't have a "home" of your own?

That is completely absurd.

says you, i doubt the dead on both sides would see it your way!

Jedi~Tank wrote:

Kit-Fox wrote:And Israels claim is based on the fact that they murdered & commited genocide to clear the land of its original inhabitants. Seriously, its in your own religious books that

God promised?? If he promised why did he require you to kill (which is against his word) to claim the land.

Also to JT, Israel survives even surrounded by those who dont like/appreciate it because it is backed both economically & militarily by the US. Without this backing Israel would not survive in a conflict with its neighbours.

I beg to differ there bud, That land is the land flowing with milk and honey, and IF the USA ever forsook Israel surely as I am typing this reply the USA will crumble and fall.."For I will bless those that bless you and I will curse those that curse you"

LMAO...what planet are you living on "bud"? the US is crumbling anyway, every single nation on this planet is looking to dump the dollar as the worlds currency and are also wanting to trade oil in any currency except dollars, and you think the US is fine and dandy?


flowing with milk and honey?! i assume your referring to the Israeli side of the fence?

there's 1 thing about this particular topic that stands out like boy George at a gymnasium, and that's the absolute BS that comes out of the Israeli and Israeli supporters side

man, you must really think we are as gullible as a child if you think that last post of yours has any credibility in our eyes


i curse Israel, not because of their race, religion or creed, but because of Israelis blatant acts of crimes against humanity and its conduct towards its very own allies...there...i said it, and as sure as i'm writing this response...i'm positive God would agree with me...in fact, i would bet my life most of the world would agree with me as well!

I dont think you know why you hate Israel, and just because you can get people to "agree with you" does not mean your right. I refuse to entertain a conversation with a closed minded hater so this will be my last responce to you. Look in history past MISTER!! Since the recorded history of man there has been none so hunted, so enslaved, so butchered, so raped and pillaged and so displaced and so persecuted than the jewish people, and YET they have endured and have thier piece of land to call thier own home by the hand of thier GOD. And I say GOD BLESS EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM!

To be honest Israel has one of the most fertile lands in the world.

Now to tell you that the USA, the former USSR, UK, Australia, and every country in the world have done some horrible acts in war and out side of war.


Do I dare mention detention centres for suspected terrorists?
Do I dare mention that USSA took civil rights away, oh and USA did it too.
Do I dare mention the desecration of religious, cultural and other traditions by the UK, rather mother England.
Do I dare mention the attempted breeding the Aboriginals out?


I can safely say that the USA has done far worse things in modern history.

Hitchkok wrote:

Mordack wrote:

Jedi~Tank wrote:I missed your point. The account in the Torah (1st 5 books of the bible) as well as the entire old testament, science and archeology have proven it already. Wether one chooses to believ it or not is personal preference but personal preference does not change the facts. The original title holder to the land is God almighty, he gave it to the hebrews..later Abraham has a son named Ishmael, and another named Isaac. The one son he promised and thusly gave land a, the other he promised and thusly gave land b..both sons recieved thier portion of what God alloted to them..but the stckler is this..one son was given the blessing of God while the other was not..why? ask God..so herein lies the CONFLICT..the sons of Ismael and the sons of Isaac..it has not to do with the LAND that is Israel..it has to do with to whom the blessing of God was given..now for non spiritual people and for those that do not believ in such a thing..ask yourself this question..how can a people thrive so in a country barley the size of Virginia surrounded by so many that would see them exterminated? Blessing or not, you investigate on your own, I have and am satisfied that I cannot explain it nor fully comprehend it but I believ it thus and so.

The point I made is that your belief that the Jews are the rightful heirs to the land is rooted in faith. Nothing anybody says is likely to change your mind. The same is true of the Palestinians, who have an equally resolute and unflinching belief that the land belongs to them. That's why there won't be a resolution.

EXCEPT: the palestinian claim is not based on scriptures. how do i know that?
1) the Palestinian are not a homogenous religious group. there are muslim Palestinian and christian Palestinian.
2) the Palestinain claim is for the mandatory Palestine.
3) neither the quran nor the bible has any reference to the mandatory Palestine.

this is not to say that the old testament is claim enough for a Jewish state in Israel. but it does negate the Palestinian religious claim.
the Palestinian national movement is a secular one.

There are numerous threads of thought within the Palestinian movement. The bulk of the front-line movement is secular, but a lot of areawide Anti-Israeli Pro-Palestinian sentiment is also religious. The Qu'Ran makes no direct reference to the area being Palestinian, but other Islamic texts and various Muslim scholars throughout history do. Saadin being a notable example. It is difficult to label something so large in scope as being wholly religous or wholly secular.

i just want to clarify a specific point.
there is an Arabic ethnic group, and an islamic religion. and they are not the same. not every Arab is a muslim, and not every muslim is Arab (turkey and Iran being a prominent examples of non-Arab muslim states).

the Palestinian national movement is just that, a Palestinian national movement. it is seperate from the Morrocan nationality, the Egyptian nationality, the Syrian nationality, and other Arab nationalities (Saudy, Jordanian, Yamenite, Lebanese, Iraqy and so on).
there is also a sort of pan-Arabic nationality, or rather a sort of coalition (called the "Arab league"), but it is a loose one, more of an initiative by the leadership than a feeling shared by the people.

Mordack wrote: [spoiler]

Hitchkok wrote:

Mordack wrote:

Jedi~Tank wrote:I missed your point. The account in the Torah (1st 5 books of the bible) as well as the entire old testament, science and archeology have proven it already. Wether one chooses to believ it or not is personal preference but personal preference does not change the facts. The original title holder to the land is God almighty, he gave it to the hebrews..later Abraham has a son named Ishmael, and another named Isaac. The one son he promised and thusly gave land a, the other he promised and thusly gave land b..both sons recieved thier portion of what God alloted to them..but the stckler is this..one son was given the blessing of God while the other was not..why? ask God..so herein lies the CONFLICT..the sons of Ismael and the sons of Isaac..it has not to do with the LAND that is Israel..it has to do with to whom the blessing of God was given..now for non spiritual people and for those that do not believ in such a thing..ask yourself this question..how can a people thrive so in a country barley the size of Virginia surrounded by so many that would see them exterminated? Blessing or not, you investigate on your own, I have and am satisfied that I cannot explain it nor fully comprehend it but I believ it thus and so.

The point I made is that your belief that the Jews are the rightful heirs to the land is rooted in faith. Nothing anybody says is likely to change your mind. The same is true of the Palestinians, who have an equally resolute and unflinching belief that the land belongs to them. That's why there won't be a resolution.

EXCEPT: the palestinian claim is not based on scriptures. how do i know that?
1) the Palestinian are not a homogenous religious group. there are muslim Palestinian and christian Palestinian.
2) the Palestinain claim is for the mandatory Palestine.
3) neither the quran nor the bible has any reference to the mandatory Palestine.

this is not to say that the old testament is claim enough for a Jewish state in Israel. but it does negate the Palestinian religious claim.
the Palestinian national movement is a secular one.

[/spoiler]
There are numerous threads of thought within the Palestinian movement. The bulk of the front-line movement is secular, but a lot of areawide Anti-Israeli Pro-Palestinian sentiment is also religious. The Qu'Ran makes no direct reference to the area being Palestinian, but other Islamic texts and various Muslim scholars throughout history do. Saadin being a notable example. It is difficult to label something so large in scope as being wholly religous or wholly secular.

the Islamic take on the Land of Israel is this:
the land is an islamic Waqf. it was made so by conquest in the beginning of the muslim era.
Saladin refered to the land as being a part of the muslim empire. not the Arab nation.
having said that, it is clear that, just as you wrote, "a lot of areawide Anti-Israeli Pro-Palestinian sentiment is also religious".
the point is, the leadership and people of most of the Arab world couldn't care less about the Palestinian people themselves. they just want to see the land under Muslim rule (and again, this is not to say those are the sentimentss of every muslim).
and it would be naivety to think that had Israel lost it's indepence in 1948 a Palestinian state would have been founded. Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon would have divided the land between them.