Discussion on Cheating [merged]

[S1eepy]

Is it whining? Yes

The petition shows commitment - but at the end of the day, its YOUR commitment to whining. Those 35 people didn't come on the forum to complain.. They are more than happy to keep playing Q, without this drama.

In fact.. it makes tactical sense for them to encourage you.. seen as it removes you (and probably Hippy) from serious contention from this wave at least ^^ Wise call from them I'd say.

[Teyla.]

haha it alot more than whining this time u trust me on tha
your post is a bit spammy for suggesting thats all it is

those 35 ppl are complaining through me
that is why they are not here
they understand the purpose of this thread and i'm happy they are not all spawning page after page of useless back and fore trash

this thread is so admins know we all not happy and want something done about it

simples

[The Doctor]

A report was made. In response to that, I collected the information and investigated it. I then made a decision based on the evidence that was and wasn't there. If I were so easily swayed by this petition, if suddenly the voices of a portion of the player base somehow overruled that investigation, what would that say about my investigation in the first place? I did my job, and made my decision in good conscience, and I stand by it.

Yes, 35 players disagree with my decision. Yet, not one of you have provided additional evidence to change my mind. I can't just ban because 35 people don't like someone after being convinced they were 'cheating' after the accusation was repeated time and again, regardless of my decision.

There was no evidence in the information collected. Suspicious circumstances, perhaps, similar log in times, yes, but not enough to warrant a decision to ban.

Two possible explanations I can see here:

1. Player of Account A logs into Account B, and uses it to spy on other players, and then uses Account A to attack those spied against.
2. Player of Account A asks player of Account B to spy on some other players, to help Account A out.

Both of these situations have been seen throughout the history of this game, and each is just as likely as the other. So how do you want to respond to that? Incriminate a possibly innocent player? Or keep trying to look for more evidence to support a ban of a suspect player?

There have been no attacks between the accounts. Therefore there has been no feeding. Decision: Cleared.
There is no evidence to support an accusation of multying. Decision: Cleared.

Of course I am keeping an eye on each report made, in case new evidence comes up that I have not already found, or of any new information, but my decision stands unless new and previously unknown evidence is supplied.


A note on the having fun side of things:
Naturally, I cannot ban someone if there is no or not enough evidence, but no one is stopping you - the players who think that another player might be cheating - from obliterating those players. You get to have fun at the same time, while bringing in your own form of 'justice'. Win/Win!

It might even provide me with the proof I need to actually ban them, since players under pressure are far more likely to slip up... or it might not. Either way, you all get to have fun, and 'justice' is done.


Final Note: I am not here to do whatever I want, ignoring the opinions of players and doing whatever. I am here to maintain and (hopefully) improve the game. I am always willing to investigate reports, and to provide a prompt response. But when I do make my decision of whether a user is guilty or not, I would like to ask that users respect that decision. I do my job, you have fun.

Of course, I am open and willing to listen to appeals and submission of new evidence/information, but if the new information goes nowhere, the decision will not change. And no amount of players petitioning can sway that.

[S1eepy]

1. Accusation - Done
2. Present evidence- Done
3. ADMIN makes desision - Done and done again
4. Move on with your life - Pending

[Neimenljivi]

S1eepy - I am not playing this era seriously. Not even a bit. I'll just go after cheaters and those who help them - and probably also those who get a stupid bonus by buying USSs and support admins that do nothing to get rid of cheaters. I am ranked as high as I am as I want to be able to mass anyone at any given moment, without the need to farm beforehand.
So no, I am not "playing" an era we've been sold 4 times already, 2 times in the past 6 months, and an era full of cheaters and full of $penders to get #1 at the end.

This petition will not only remove Teyla and Hippy from contention, but a lot of other people as well. Myself included.

Like Teyla said - unless cheaters are dealt with, the fair players will just move elsewhere where they can actually compete fairly and needn't worry about cheaters.

Also you're stressing out how you only saw the information I presented - are you implying I was lying? I thought you were smarter than that. From what I've gathered the only reason Hippy is cleared is that the evidence wasn't actual. The only actual evidence one could get is an IP match, which proves nothing (also, do you want me to spill the beans about an IP match last era?) as it can easily be faked through use of proxies, and an confession, which - and I am sure you will agree with me here - is not something the offenders usually do.
Haz also wasn't the one who had been watching Hippy for months, nor does he know anything much about Hippy's past from firsthand experience. So excuse us if we think based on firsthand experience that Haz is mistaken.

Haz - 35 people disagree with your decision because the facts of what has been happening were clear. As you know, all the evidence we provided you with was real, none of it was faked. The only pieces of evidence that speak for Hippy are the fact that he hasn't confessed (which, again, is not something people usually do) and the fact that there wasn't an IP match (I could have 493059480 multies right now if I wanted and you couldn't get an IP match if I were careful enough). Like you explained, that was the difference in HoT's case when deciding whether he was guilty or not. Like I explained time and time again, none of the two pieces of missing evidence can hardly be considered as a decisive evidence, simply because they can't be trusted.

As Teyla said, how many situations such as these does it take before you'll finally decide there's enough of them? Because we've seen as many, and more situations with Hippy. And those are just the situations we've seen since we started monitoring his situation.
Regarding feeding - we've seen Hippy being fed by that account while it was allowed. Since it was made a bannable offence, yes, he hasn't done it. But I know of a player who did it and was banned by Game Cops, then UNBANNED after confessing and everything by an admin.
The only evidence to support an accusation of multying that would stick, apparently, are an IP match and a confession. Do you want me to demonstrate and play an era with, say, 10 accounts and show you how easy it is not to get caught if you judge only by that?

Yes we'll keep massing them, but eventually we'll get bored doing it. We'll get bored playing the game where cheaters can roam free. Quantum - 35 people = not a sustainable server.
You choose whether you want to kill it or not.

~Jack

[S1eepy]

I'm tired of arguing with you Jack - you are endlessly capable of completely ignoring what other people say, and repeating yourself over and over again in an attempt to batter people into agreeing with you.

The bottom line here is;
Haz made a decision that you, and others, did not like.

The decision (even if its wrong) will not destroy Q. No matter how much it makes you cry
Do you see any cheating currently happening in Q?
Is anyone way out in front because of underhanded tactics?

Overpowered USSs are another matter - one NOT FOR THIS THREAD (make a new thread and I'll support it)
But massing everyone who buys a USS is not the answer - as it would starve the game of money.

[~Les Erebus~]

imma be a balla shot calla

[Neimenljivi]

Yes I do see cheating happening in Q.
Will I report it? No. Why? Because nothing will happen, yet again, as there will be no IP match and no confession. The best I can do is save those IDs up on my comp to make sure I remember they're cheaters.

As for anyone way in front because of underhanded tactics:
RANK NAME RACE FAMILY TOTAL GLORY and REPUTATION
1 HippyFool Artificial Intelligence 366,129

Take a look at how many of these were gathered after Skyfusion account was created. Take a look at Hippy's track record suddenly improving a lot after the account was created. If he hadn't been cheating, he wouldn't have been in front of so many other, honest players during all those eras when he gathered 366,129 GnRs. And a little birdie told me that Hippy once offered to farm on his other account and sab the enemy with it. That was a couple years ago, of course, and it's not like it's an actual evidence, either. I mean, witnesses aren't usually relevant. It's just a word of someone who was clean the entire time they were here, against the word of Hippy who claims to be innocent just like every other cheater or offender.

I won't make a new thread regarding overpowered USSs. I won't be endlessly repeating myself or others over and over again. I told Jason that free ascensions were too much, but he at least deserved the money since he designed the era. I told Juliette the free ascensions were too much, she just milked the old era with a combination of code from NG, hardly deserved the money. She didn't listen either. I already voiced my opinion publicly regarding USSs in this era, along with others. Haz didn't listen to anyone, yet again. And poor schmucks are paying noticeable amounts of money to support copying of old eras.
Right now the game is about cheaters who can get away as long as they're smart enough to use a proxy and not to confess it and about eras which are copies of old eras or eras with no special features. If the game gets starved the new admins might finally get it that Q isn't about playing old eras again and again and that the players demand an equal playing field and want to see cheaters gone. Then they have 2 choices - deal with it, make sure the rules are upheld and come up with something new every era, like it used to be, or close down Quantum. I am hoping for the former, but if the latter happens - due to current state of Q - I can't say I'd feel bad.

The last time a petition the size of this happened and I was starving the game of money - feeding was made illegal. So, based on experience, something good could come out of it. It just depends whether Haz is as wise as Jason.

~Jack

[Teyla.]

it way more than a portion tho doctor who
what would it say about your investigation if u changed mind?
it would say u were new at admin on q you made a decision in good faith but after that decision which u said yourself was hard one the players gave u their view and u listened and decided to put us first.

that would say heaps for u i think =/

we shouldnt have to be subjected to more cheating that he will get away with cos he good at slipping through nets, he wont make more mistakes now after all this he is not total nub.

a lot of us see hippy play this way for ages before we saw neims posts here.
all they do is show us what we thought was happnin IS happening!!
u need to see that we want hippy/fusion sorted out not because we dont like him but because he cheats and we know it as a server.
we dont want that here, we want fair and that aint fair no matter how it dressed up.

neim said what u got now is about as good as it gets with evidence and he is right!
somebody showed me post where hippy says fusion exist only to power him up i mean lol really? xD
anyway i was one massed mutual enemy with hippy once 2?3? years ago he said then he'd sab with his other account to make it easier for me, i thought slip of words or something but still i told ppl same time what he said and that was long before stuff on forum i even forgot about it till i see things from now
no need 2 say who account that sabbed was cos you can guess already and that is why for me i believe,

except handful of hippy's friends server united on this and ppl are willing 2 quit and walk
i can tell they serious and i know i am
if thought of loosing players who make game does not sway ur decision then u will see numbers drop
it is fun massing tha nubs yea, they write u poems and get all sad =[ but u know wha, massing cheats cos they just left to get on with things stops being fun after a while and then what do u do?
no point in playing cos cheats will always do better than u every time,
the one's who fight cheats and others will leave cos we're bored of it
then when the rest of fair players cant win cos things out of control they quit or cheat themselves =[

who will be left??? oneil says it right,
all suspicious circumstance u talk about here points to explanation A and we need pressure from admins not just us players, make example pls!
when a cheat sees community stand up against them and admin supports them they know they cant get away with things easy and dont try, we want 2 see them up and leave not tidy players

as for u sleepy we aint tired of arguing so if you dont like it GTHO and make a overpowerd fss thread =]
neim doesnt need 2 batter peoples to agree with him they do that through common sense and on their own backs

[Caprila]

"A Picture paints a thousand words"


Hang on, one thousand isn't enough to compete with these posts !



"Grover may be just a child's toy, but he knows best"

[Teyla.]

Do you even play q?

no?

thnx for your pointless post

[The Doctor]

Do you even play q?

no?

thnx for your pointless post

Whether Caprila plays or not has no relevance. The point of the post was to say that you are "beating a dead horse" and trying to resort to peer pressure to make me change my decision, despite there being no evidence.

On the note of evidence, I think some of you should note the differences between:

1. evidence
2. circumstances
3. opinions

I'm seeing a lot of 2 and 3, but no occurrences of 1.

[ElgCaress]

I am one of the 35 that signed the petition. No, I did not sign it because I am angry with Hippy. I've known him for years, played in his alliance alongside him. I considered him a friend. Disbelief and then utter disappointment followed after reading Jack's thread because I had a lot of respect for Hippy's knowledge & skill (or so I believed). Now I look at the Legends Page with some skepticism.

I signed the petition because I believe StargateWars Admins have a responsibility to create a cheat-free environment for it's players, and in a sense, customers. Once money transfers hands, me, a paying Customer, expect a certain level of service. I expect the Owner(s) of StargateWars would want to keep their customers happy, more $$ for them at the end of the day. In a sense, Admins not getting rid of players who create multi's has a direct impact on the Owner's wallet. I mean, why pay $$ to get ahead if I can create a multi to help me out with no repercussions. Right?

Which brings me to the following point. Ok, Haz has made a ruling. Not enough evidence. Ok. 35 players/customers disagree with you (they can't all be wrong and you right? ). Anyways, although I question your ruling, I can live with that. But...I have a problem with the other issue (which has not been addressed at all).

And I quote

Rules


0) Impersonating a game official (Admin, Game Mod, Game Cop, or any variation) will result in account deletion and exclusion from the GateWars-games (Main, Ascended, Quantum, Newgrounds).
1) Only one account per person, per game server.
2) No automated processes, macros, scripts or other 'non human being' run account activity is allowed.
3) No sharing or giving out your account details to others.
4) No logging into other people's accounts.
5) Attempts to break into accounts, the game, or otherwise disrupt or slow down the game, or server, are strictly illegal.
6) Using bugs or exploits of any kind, or knowing of and not reporting bugs or exploits, is illegal.
7) Spamming your recruiting link, or anything else related to or using our name or site, is illegal. Share the site, but please do so respectfully.
Any breaking of the rules can result in punishment, suspension, banning, account deletion, or banning of your entire ISP.

You have Hippy admitting on the forums that that 2nd account is his multi. Rule #1 was broken.
No extra information is needed. Evidence is on the forums, in black and white. Playing with that multi a day ago or a year ago is of no consequence here. So that argument is null and void. I am 99.99999% sure Rule #1 has been around since the creation of GateWars. Can I now suggest you enforce the rules the Creator/Owner (I assume) set out for the game? I believe Rule No 8 is the consequences, right?

Sleepy. Although I commend you for your loyalty towards your friend, may I suggest you step back a bit. From reading your ingame pm warning me you probably are going to get so upset with Teyla you will end up massing me and Teyla's commander Kamikazi, it is a clear indication your emotions are dictating your actions. Chill mate. We cannot loose sight of the end goal here..which is to create and maintain a cheat-free gaming environment for all to enjoy. You are telling the players of this game to stop moaning and move on. What if your head was on the chopping block tomorrow? These same people would fight for you. It is not about who's buddies with who. You might be my biggest enemy but i'll be here, sticking my neck out for you. It's about speaking up when something is wrong or unfair.

I am not in any way posting this because I am trying to resort to peer pressure. You made a decision based on that case Jack presented. Ok, accepted it...moving on. No pressure here. Just asking you now to uphold the rules you agreed to when you accepted the position as Game Admin for GateWars and now ban a player who publicly admitted to breakiing Rule #1....for years.

[S1eepy]

I won't be endlessly repeating myself or others over and over again.

If only this were true.

Yes I do see cheating happening in Q.
Will I report it? No.

So because you didn't get your way on one subject, you refuse to bring any other potential cheaters to light? Or is it more likely, that you don't have enough evidence to publicly accuse them?

Sleepy. Although I commend you for your loyalty towards your friend, may I suggest you step back a bit.

This has not been about who's friend I am for a long time. This is simply about Jack and Teyla shouting as loud as they can to get attention, and trying to change a decision made by the Admin. I am simply an active voice that doesn't agree with that tactic, as it is very childish and gives a bad impression of the Q-munity <--- only good thing to come of this topic was that word


As for threatening you - as I said in the PM - if Teyla cant handle having someone speak against her on the forums, and wants to start attacking me ingame, thats her choice. But from what I can see, she is not going to have any stats, so it would not be possible to retaliate against her directly. So I will retaliate on those around her. This is how it has been since the beginning of gatewars, and should not come as a surprise.
I only sent the message to you because I would not want to completely blindside you, as you don't deserve that. But for now, Teyla is sticking to angry PMs, calling me a cheater and swearing a lot. Words don't do much to me, but if it escalates beyond that, so be it. I do not desire war, I would prefer to compete for rank, even against the overpowered USSs, but I will play the hand I'm dealt as well as I can.

[Teyla.]

[spoiler]

Do you even play q?

no?

thnx for your pointless post

Whether Caprila plays or not has no relevance. The point of the post was to say that you are "beating a dead horse" and trying to resort to peer pressure to make me change my decision, despite there being no evidence.

On the note of evidence, I think some of you should note the differences between:

1. evidence
2. circumstances
3. opinions

I'm seeing a lot of 2 and 3, but no occurrences of 1.

[/spoiler]

it does have relevance tho cos Caprilla dont share our concern here so what do they know about our cause or what happens in the game??? yea nothing!
and this is for q players if u don't play opinions don't matter but i say now after this they dont anyway even if u do play!!

I think u need to tell the difference between peer pressure and a server full of pissed off customers standing up for something and protesting to have cheat banned that they know is a cheat and only here now cos u take his word over 35 of your players o_0

nice

u say your seeing alot of 2 and 3 yea??
well you said it! how many circumstance does it take again???? u said u seeing a lot!!!!
by doing that with hippy u will have to do it with everyone.

if some1 is thought to be cheat and they leave u with no trail like u are saying then you turn to 2 and 3 dont u???? not just say ok carry on, lol what serious???
if no evidence why was your decision so hard to make u tell me that???? if it was only 2 and 3 it would of been easy?
u got no end of circumstance and plenty of opinions from 35 of us who seen this going on for ages

those watching will know it for themselves from this how much we players matter i wont have 2 say a word

elg is right with her post too loads of peoples know about him admitting stuff here and there but all we see is him get away with it? sets standards for every one else that does!!

as for sleepy again dude if u dont like what is being wrote here u dont have to read the thread, it isnt just me and neim is it
this is why we have to repeat ourselves because a minority cant get it through their heads what 35 of us want to see happen with decisions admins say at first they found hard to make

what did u say in your message sleepy? even if hippy was a cheat you'd laugh and joke with him about it?
oh yea you lie too i asked about u and u were screwing around with more than 1 account yourself last round u were not just asking neim and elg stuff to help u.
cops had 2 ask u about it didnt they??
u seem to think 1 account per player rule dnt apply 2 u either hahahah go figure and dnt even deny that
dont care about reasons u had them u still had them.
if your attacked in game its because u support cheaters and lie about messing around with more than 1 account,,
only ones around here i see who dont like being spoken out against are the cheats, the cheats friends and admins who say peer pressure when confronted by server.

u said yourself u supported haz and hippy from the start so dont turn it round like we the ones causing trouble and u are impartial =]
i only see u and hippy representing other side of community.
still waiting for your 50 names from q u said are happy for hippy to continue =]