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Right well, as of recent days I have been thinking about the nature of good and evil, and if things such as them can actually exist at all.

We know good and evil in more basic forms that can apply to my following examples and theories, that of them being negative and positive.

I shall begin by discussing the first of the two potential roots, which would be that found within nature. The act of killing, not supporting or in effect basically hindering the species or even the ecosystem or local niche. These negative actions will ultimately lead to, in my opinion, the true source and/or meaning of good and evil, but I digest atm..

The second and most obvious, but detailed source, no less directly linked to that I have previously mentioned, is that of society.

An act, that does not agree with the basic principles of our laws, but not on any small level is considered an act of evil. Examples are genocide, low level murder or even racism (though the existence of racism in itself is a different debate.) Further advancing this premise I can point further to a consented feeling of being nice and showing respect, that these 'negative' things are linked to being evil.

So we have the basis, if very shaky and short winded explanations, for a discussion. So now I wonder why are these things negative? I can understand why people would think that they are, but I do see the justification on an intellectual level of why they are negative.

We have an overpopulated world and we are still quite some time away from colonising the stars. The more people there are, at this point in time, the more pollution, industrialisation and chance of war there is. All of which can cause massive, potentially irreversible damage to the world and its native species. So surely, it would be natures point here that the continued level of development and existence is an act of evil.

So look at the social side of things. We are constantly bombarded with in society that everyone has a right to life, that everyone has a right to a fair opportunity from birth and that it is ok to be the same as everyone else, but also very different. Very odd when it is put like that, but very truthful...society = herd. Never the less, those basic principles arise from the dominance of religion during the birth of the planets greatest nations and their subsequent spreading of these ideals to less advanced cultures (after all are most MEDC's law systems not derived from the ten commandments....) So these are based on a belief. What makes them right? What gives a person a right to life, if the crime of the masses is exactly the same as notable individuals, but just more insidiously.

So, we have evil, an idea produced from ancient belief systems that creates subjectivity with its undefined/debated line of acceptance adapted from the corrupt ever changing environment of human society to represent the unpopular, but not necessarily WRONG/negative actions or effects observed/experienced/perceived (semantics semps....) within or upon society and culture (then again...what is wrong and right?..dam I am a sucker for Wittgensteins language argument!)

So, I am satisfied by that, evil is just a word or idea created by society as a label, even if something may be logically right, it still may be unpopular or on a short term basis negative. (I really knew this for a very long time, I am just writing this all up here so people can see what runs through my head during random hours and comment to their whim to discuss good and evil)

As for good, well it is the exact opposite, a word used for the positive things.

So that is my offering to the true nature of good and evil. Ideas and words created to show the spectrum of effects for society. Limited by knowledge and humanity (popularity) on different occasions (what is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right...)

The discussion can now be advanced though. (OH yes! lol..it does not end there!) What about the supposed greater things in cosmos?

Lets take a look now at Determinism. Can Good and Evil actually properly exist in Basic Determinism, if we really consider it? Yes, I would say, but not in the same way. You see, acts of nature, or God things such as a Tsunami or hurricane can cause as much if not more destruction then the simple will of men, that if doing the same thing would be considered evil. (As good and evil, can only really exist if their is an equal punishment and effect all brought about by a decision made through FREE WILL, as this is determinism) So if Basic Determinism is simply cause and effect, then acts of evil are nothing more then just the same cause and effect. Thereby there is no willing negative act and as such evil does not exist, so potentially evil is a complex creation from our own inability to comprehend the nature of the universe and communication (essentially language - yes...wittgenstein again..)

So, yes, another angle to my thought.

Finally is the ever nagging, but uncertain created by a greater order to things. AKA God, Gods and the supernatural. The calibre of ones soul reflected by our actions chosen in life through the ability of free will. (Oh look what we have here...God vs Science..lol..) In this instance evil would be insidious, it would be a thing, a constant negative, blackness, the anti God (to some religions..) or the negativity that exist's in a universe requiring balance of two poles - ying yang, matter/anti(dark)-matter ...yadda yadda...

Good and Evil in this respect is a tool employed by the 'divine' towards judgement and achievement. Those who have committed crimes against God or indulge in unholy acts that are constantly re translated from ancient scripts to match religions needed tolerance of the increasing impurity of its practise and followers. Once again, though still a word and method of description, good and evil here are ultimate as with this path the book stops at God and Judgement where Good and Evil are pivotal if you understand what I mean. (God is good)

This though is, yet again massively subjective. The Buddhist 'God' is not necessarily good as he is wise and balanced. The Jewish rendition of God is that of an angry vengeful being - Yahweh. Here God is a single entity indivisible where evil does not directly exist at all. (It is all about honour and principle and following the ten commandments, a very basic ((or advanced)) form of what we have in society today and christianity. Those who do not follow the commandments are not necessarily considered evil, more just playing wrong and naughty - infidels.)

To conclude on the entire issue, unless we advance further into deeper things such as Determinism and the existence of God and meaning of religion, the nature of good and evil are just things adhering to the opinion and tolerance of society given from the existence of free will (and thereby choice to move against society) but they are no more than labels used to compensate for other inadequacies. As such I would conclude that in today's world they do not exist at all, unless we factor in religion (of course we ignore religions long term effects on laws etc here as they are now very separate entities), merely making the terms more attributes of the herd morality of the current population of the world.

Comments, more theories...

slander will not be tolerated here.

You are right that good and evil, can defined as a set actions and motives that are thought to be beneficial or a hindrance to that society. From saying that, we can also add that the subset of actions and motivations which are grouped in either category change depending on the structure and beliefs of the society which make such distinctions of proper and improper action and motivation as they pertain to that society. The shift in grouping of actions and motivations in the categories good and evil has been showed throughout history as society progresses. ie Actions and motivations once thought evil have crossed the moral line to good and vice versa.

From this I conclude that good and evil cannot be classified as absolutes. They are just actions and motivations judged good or evil depending on how they are interpreted in the context of the society. (hindrance or beneficial) Therefore the idea that GOD judges what is good or evil is false.
Since what god has declared good or evil has changed many times throughout history and often contradicts itself.

I believe good and evil are merely expressions of our collective nature of empathy. Long ago our ancestors began living in groups. To live successfully in group individual needs must be sacrificed but neither ignored for they are what drive the group. The need for resolution of these differences(personal needs, and those of the group) is solved by the evolution of the group dynamic. Any species that wishes to survive through group cooperation and activity, inevitably develops a group dynamic or what we would call a collective conscience. The ideas of good an evil developed through our group dynamic through millions of years of evolution.

So yes Good and Evil do exist and the represent the balance of personal needs to that of cooperation. And the actions and motivations that fall within each are expressions of millions of years of human experience of what has dictated survival and failure for our group dynamic(society) within our natural world.

DO I WIN?

do you win?

You said nigh on exactly the same thing I did. You just added the angle of it being human experience and you rename society as a collective consciousness. Then again, you also use a much more basic representation and different angle of this.

Then, of course the final thing would be our conclusions are different, but I would say only because you ignore a lot of philosophical/psychological theory.

So no, if this was a debate you would not have won, you would have been steam rolled. But neither of us would not have done well as we both lack a lot of creditable sources and foundations for our claims.

However this is not a debate that can have a defined winner, it is another one of my so called 'obscure' or 'bad choice' topics. It is a discussion of opinions amongst intellectuals.

good or evil are matters of perception and belief. perception, because what you believe to be true is true. belief, or better yet blind belief is the concrete that solidifies perception. i was born a catholic, raised as a catholic. my belief, blind though it may be, makes me believe in good or evil. therefore, it is my perception that good and evil exist.

barring your determinism or other such theories and social behavior, good and evil will remain to be a perception based on beliefs and the moral society.

Semper wrote:do you win?

You said nigh on exactly the same thing I did. You just added the angle of it being human experience and you rename society as a collective consciousness. Then again, you also use a much more basic representation and different angle of this.

Then, of course the final thing would be our conclusions are different, but I would say only because you ignore a lot of philosophical/psychological theory.

So no, if this was a debate you would not have won, you would have been steam rolled. But neither of us would not have done well as we both lack a lot of creditable sources and foundations for our claims.

However this is not a debate that can have a defined winner, it is another one of my so called 'obscure' or 'bad choice' topics. It is a discussion of opinions amongst intellectuals.

lol your ego astounds me, i believe you are the one who would be steam rolled.

Good and evil do exist according to my definition. prove that wrong i dare you.

I have lots of credible sources, search the evolution of good and evil

I will PM you Thriller.

On topic please, no more competition from this point on.

Good and evil is only the perception of what humans believe. If we were to go way back in the ancient times, the 1930s-1940s, we would see a new government named Nazi Germany. I am not going to categorize all the Germans so no hating me!

Hitler and other Nazis believed they were the "perfect race" and that they had the right to exterminate the Jews, Commies, etc. Some Germans and other countries (like Great Britain, USA, Canada) saw this as an act of true evil while the Nazis and Hitler believed they were doing the good thing.


Now onto modern times we have the "War on Terror". The terrorists believe they are on the side of good since they are dieing for their god while some Americans, UK's, and Canadians believe they are the good side since they are fighting terrorists...


I heard a good analogy the other day about good evil. I'll try to remember it.


Good and evil are only the two sides of the same coin.