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Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:37 am**

You may have heard that legislation creating compulsory ID Cards passed a crucial stage in the House of Commons. You may feel that ID cards are not something to worry about, since we already have Photo ID for our Passport and Driving License and an ID Card will be no different to that.

What you have not been told is the full scope of this proposed ID Card, and what it will mean to you personally.

The proposed ID Card will be different from any card you now hold. It will be connected to a database called the NIR, (National Identity Register) where all of your personal details will be stored. This will include the unique number that will be issued to you, your fingerprints, a scan of the back of your eye, and your photograph. Your name, address and date of birth will also obviously be stored there.

There will be spaces on this database for your religion, residence, sexual tastes, number of partners, medical records status and many other private and personal facts about you. There is unlimited space for every other details of your life on the NIR database, which can be expanded by the Government with or without further Acts of Parliament.

By itself, you might think that this register is harmless, but you would be wrong to come to this conclusion. This new card will be used to check your identity against your entry in the register in real time, whenever you present it to 'prove who you are'.

Every place that sells alcohol or cigarettes, every post office, every chemist, and every Bank will have an NIR Card Terminal, (very much like the Chip and Pin Readers that are everywhere now) into which your card can be 'swiped' to check your identity. Each time this happens, a record is made at the NIR of the time and place that the Card was presented. This means for example, that there will be a government record of every time you withdraw more than £99 at your branch of Nat West, who now demand ID for these transactions. Every time you have to prove that you are over 18, your card will be swiped, and a record made at the NIR. Restaurants and off licences will demand that your card is swiped so that each receipt shows that they sold alcohol to someone over 18, and that this was proved by the access to the NIR, indemnifying them from prosecution.

Private businesses are going to be given access to the NIR Database. If you want to apply for a job, you will have to present your card for a swipe.

If you want to apply for a London Underground Oyster Card,or a supermarket loyalty card, or a driving licence you will have to present your ID Card for a swipe. The same goes for getting a telephone line or a mobile phone or an internet account.

Oyster, DVLA, BT and Nectar (for example) all run very detailed databases of their own. They will be allowed access to the NIR, just as every other business will be. This means that each of these entities will be able to store your unique number in their database, and place all your travel, phone records, driving activities and detailed shopping habits under your unique NIR number. These databases, which can easily fit on a storage device the size of your hand, will be sold to third parties either legally or illegally. It will then be possible for a non governmental entity to create a detailed dossier of all your activities.

Certainly, the government will have clandestine access to all of them, meaning that they will have a complete record of all your movements, from how much and when you withdraw from your bank account to what medications you are taking, down to the level of what sort of bread you eat – all accessible via a single unique number in a central database.

This is quite a significant leap from a simple ID Card that shows your name and face.

Most people do not know that this is the true character and scope of the proposed ID Card. Whenever the details of how it will work are explained to them, they quickly change from being ambivalent towards it. The Government is going to COMPEL you to enter your details into the NIR and to carry this card. If you and your children want to obtain or renew your passports, you will be forced to have your fingerprints taken and your eyes scanned for the NIR, and an ID Card will be issued to you whether you want one or not. If you refuse to be fingerprinted and eye scanned, you will not be able to get a passport.

Your ID Card will, just like your passport, not be your property. The Home Secretary will have the right to revoke or suspend your ID at any time, meaning that you will not be able to withdraw money from your Bank Account, for example, or do anything that requires you to present your government issued ID Card.

The arguments that have been put forwarded in favour of ID Cards can be easily disproved. ID Cards WILL NOT stop terrorists; every Spaniard has a compulsory ID Card as did the C.I.A Madrid Bombers. ID Cards will not 'eliminate benefit fraud', most of which is done by government by withholding due payments, which in comparison, is small compared to the astronomical cost of this proposal, which will be measured in billions according to the LSE (London School of Economics).

This scheme exists solely to exert total surveillance and control over the ordinary free British Citizen, and it will line the pockets of the companies that will create the computer systems at the expense of your freedom, privacy and money.

If you did not know the full scope of the proposed ID Card Scheme before and you are as unsettled as I am at what it really means to you, to this country and its way of life, I urge you to email or photocopy this and give it to your friends and colleagues and everyone else you think should know and who cares. The Bill has proceeded to this stage due to the lack of accurate and complete information on this proposal being made public.

Doing what the government won't, GIVING YOU A VOTE!!!

Papers please?

Isn't this enough to get your blood boiling?

On a side note, the government is purchasing record numbers of ration books and the RFID, Chip and Pin (Soon to be 'Tap & Go') type cards...

Is this sinking in yet?

So do you want this, peoples of the UK? What say you?

Namaste.

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:45 am**

Oh and let not forget the DNA data base being linked to the NIR.

Check and mate citizen.

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:59 am**

when they try and ram this down the throat of the british people i just hope the british people show the balls and fighting spirit they used to have when they went up against the likes of hitler!

if we don't stand up to this (and even more importantly), don't demand the heads of every politician who is in favor of this then all i can say is...we deserve all we get!

papers please?

my response..."roll that thing up and shove it up your arse...mate!"

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:11 am**

"The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow. How did it come to this?"

King Theoden.

Let what ever spell that was cast over the people be broken, arise and claim your lives back.

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:14 am**

sadly my friend from manchester...the masses seem to content in their ignorance to heed the words of wise kings

sheople indeed!

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:06 am**

will be good to have for foreign folk within the uk. if you are here legally it helps you. if you are here illegally then who cares if you get punished for not having one.

its not hard for a foreign national working here to carry a card in their wallet/purse etc. i know the government are gradually bringing the cards in (1st foreign folk as this wont be opposed, then security industry, then normal people) but i doubt they have any sinister motive.

having a card to identify yourself with is a minor thing. i dont really have a problem with the cards as i dont really fear my government (as some paranoid monkeys do :lol:

). although if there comes a point where british citizens HAVE to have their card on them i will STRONGLY oppose that. this wont happen in my view and thats good. being forced to carry an ID card is not cool.

overall i think the card will be good for controlling foreign nationals within the uk. although i wouldnt be happy if those here legally for sensible (or temporary) purposes are made to carry the ID. asylum seekers, economic migrants, sex offenders, violent criminals, terror suspects i dont mind having to carry a card if that would help the government deal with them.

this has raised my interest though. methinks ill go research more about the future plans for the cards. peaceout :-D

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:26 am**

You are a fool Liquid. Not meant as an insult by the way.

Do you trust them with everything, even after the daily loses of information by our incompetent governments?

Think man, who has had these cards in the past?

When you lose your ID card and have no money, no food, no means of identification will you accept the chip?

It's all right there for you to see.

A time of great change is coming can you not feel it.

I do not fear the government, But they should damn well fear me, I would see them hang for their treason.

The perfect panopticon is being built around us while the masses slumber.

This is just the beginning.

Think A Scanner Darkly, and your on the right path.

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:45 am**

S0lid Snake wrote:I do not fear the government, But they should damn well fear me, I would see them hang for their treason.

i'm with you mate!

liquid, ever heard of the saying "the thin end of the wedge"?

think very hard about that.

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:09 pm**

You start a debate under false pretences, once again proving that in the eyes of conspirationists, anarchists, anti-globalists and generic anti-NWO groups, this section is nothing more as a platform to vent and spread your propaganda to 'the masses' which you generally consider to be morons and uneducated idiots unless they happen to share your opinion.
Yes, that was an actual single sentence, and is supposed to be pronounced in a hasty, single-breath manner.

I don't get why governments go to so much trouble to set up ID-card systems if they could far more easily, safer, quicker and more permanently set up ID-chip systems.
Why go to the trouble of setting up a card system if you're going to replace it with chips after not too many years? Granted.. I can understand why one would want to have a secondary (hard-copy) system as a backup in case of chip failure.

A chip is inevitably far better as a card. Imagine, a chip with a deactivation protocol. Break the law, and you are paralysed and your location broadcasted to the nearest police unit. Kill another human being, and you are instantly terminated.
Police could approach runaways without fear, as they can be remotely deactivated at all times.. home security systems can be programmed to respond with a deactivation protocol when someone enters a house unauthorised (authorisation can be as simple as "Please, do come in." Kinda like BuffyVerse vampires). Or how about this? You can find anyone you want almost instantaneously. You will never get lost, say you're stranded somewhere, you call someone and they can find your exact location immediately. No more worry about not finding your date or losing people on the busy train station.. or the tube, for that matter.

Vis-a-vis, a card is much less practical. You have to physically take the card and wipe it past the scanner. It does not broadcast your location. It does not do anything but allow for faster security and access clearances.

Ergo, the chip trumps the card.
Why a government bothers with cards is beyond me.
Oh, dig this. It is a middle way between nothing and full security designed specifically for those whiners who would limit MY security. ("Nothing" = rapists walk free, murderers escape, and chaos runs rampant; I personally am not a fan of such things, but hey! Anarchists and the other freedom-super-omnia kids are, so why should the government be allowed to protect me? It should not, because hell, it violates some people. Bull.)
("Full security" = chip. You know the drill. But hey! Anarchists fear it, so why should the government be allowed to protect me? It should not, because hell, it violates some people. Bull.)

You already knew my point of view on this.
Again I say that threads like this are not debates, and that due to the very nature of this section, it should be considered as spam and deleted. But hey.. why chop of one head of the hydra when we all know 2 will grow where the one was.

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:17 pm**

And again the problem of human rights, and where ends your freedom and others' starts.
I'm personally against this. BUT, not totally.

I'll explain:
Everyone being listed that way isn't right, it's a break of human rights. However, if we require it from ANY person having done something wrong (let's say killing, stealing, robbing, raping, kidnapping, harrassing, spying, or anything breaking others' liberty) should be under this one. They broke others' freedom, they don't deserve to keep it!!
If it's extended to everyone, it's totally different. It's break of freedom. We are democracies not dictatorships isn't it?
Enemy of The State starring Will smith anyone??
[spoiler]Enemy of the State plot summary

Robert Clayton Dean (Will Smith) is a lawyer with a wife and family whose happily normal life is turned upside down after a chance meeting with a college buddy (Jason Lee) at a lingerie shop. Unbeknownst to the lawyer, he's just been burdened with a videotape of a congressman's assassination. Hot on the tail of this tape is a ruthless group of National Security Agents commanded by a belligerently ambitious fed named Reynolds (Jon Voight). Using surveillance from satellites, bugs, and other sophisticated snooping devices, the NSA infiltrates every facet of Dean's existence, tracing each physical and digital footprint he leaves. Driven by acute paranoia, Dean enlists the help of a clandestine former NSA operative named Brill (Gene Hackman), and Enemy of the State kicks into high-intensity hyperdrive.[/spoiler]

I'm sure there are/were countries where everything you do no matter you are, is spied and recorded...hmm...wasn't it USSR and its satellites?

For the record, I'm not an anarchist anti NWO or anything like that.
I do NOT mind cameras on the streets (as long as it's not abused

), I do NOT mind helicopters all around. Even not martial law if chaos is coming. But that, crosses the line.
I hope the world isn't going to fall (back) into it..
Spying 24/7 criminals is ok for me. Spying everyone is oh so wrong.

If all people are suspect and guilty, why not just mass nuke bomb the earth and job is done without waiting and spending too much money on it!! :-D

I tell you all, I would rather die than have a chip into my skin! I did nothing wrong to be punished that way.

It means governement considers me like any murderer or raper, who would deserve to have one.
This is typical ANTI-democratic.

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:32 pm**

Lois Lane wrote:You start a debate under false pretences, once again proving that in the eyes of conspirationists, anarchists, anti-globalists and generic anti-NWO groups, this section is nothing more as a platform to vent and spread your propaganda to 'the masses' which you generally consider to be morons and uneducated idiots unless they happen to share your opinion.
Yes, that was an actual single sentence, and is supposed to be pronounced in a hasty, single-breath manner.

I don't get why governments go to so much trouble to set up ID-card systems if they could far more easily, safer, quicker and more permanently set up ID-chip systems.
Why go to the trouble of setting up a card system if you're going to replace it with chips after not too many years? Granted.. I can understand why one would want to have a secondary (hard-copy) system as a backup in case of chip failure.

A chip is inevitably far better as a card. Imagine, a chip with a deactivation protocol. Break the law, and you are paralysed and your location broadcasted to the nearest police unit. Kill another human being, and you are instantly terminated.
Police could approach runaways without fear, as they can be remotely deactivated at all times.. home security systems can be programmed to respond with a deactivation protocol when someone enters a house unauthorised (authorisation can be as simple as "Please, do come in." Kinda like BuffyVerse vampires). Or how about this? You can find anyone you want almost instantaneously. You will never get lost, say you're stranded somewhere, you call someone and they can find your exact location immediately. No more worry about not finding your date or losing people on the busy train station.. or the tube, for that matter.

Vis-a-vis, a card is much less practical. You have to physically take the card and wipe it past the scanner. It does not broadcast your location. It does not do anything but allow for faster security and access clearances.

Ergo, the chip trumps the card.
Why a government bothers with cards is beyond me.
Oh, dig this. It is a middle way between nothing and full security designed specifically for those whiners who would limit MY security. ("Nothing" = rapists walk free, murderers escape, and chaos runs rampant; I personally am not a fan of such things, but hey! Anarchists and the other freedom-super-omnia kids are, so why should the government be allowed to protect me? It should not, because hell, it violates some people. Bull.)
("Full security" = chip. You know the drill. But hey! Anarchists fear it, so why should the government be allowed to protect me? It should not, because hell, it violates some people. Bull.)

You already knew my point of view on this.
Again I say that threads like this are not debates, and that due to the very nature of this section, it should be considered as spam and deleted. But hey.. why chop of one head of the hydra when we all know 2 will grow where the one was.

So you won't mind when a criminal cuts the chip from your arm or takes it completely to get at your info?

Will you feel safe then?

There are only a few places the chip can be placed and thus they are easy to locate.

Whats to stop a kidnapper from removing it and sticking it in a pigeon?

Hell a tech head can hack it at distance without you even knowing it.

Still feeling safe? :-k

Good news is RFID Chips can be terminated by a small E.M.P generator. :wink:

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:39 pm**

a simple thought:

if we have the technology and political will it will not be soon. it will be in many years. at that point we will have the means to carry out DNA checks therefore cards or chips are pointless.

and as to the loss of data by the government? well consider the amount of data they handle. errors are not acceptable but they happen. they should happen less though

if someone messes with another persons rights (to a safe and free life) i have no problem with them being forced to carry a card. would you say its wrong to give a serial rapist an ID card? if you do that would show terrible disregard for potential victims and the rights of others

the truth is that people would not allow any (conspiracy type) laws or plans to be implemented. i believe in my nation. its not perfect but it is my country and i think it is genuine. i do not see an evil regime when i look at the uk. some do. they are misguided, maybe even 'closed minded' if i may quote the conspiracy club motto.

if the cards, chips or whatever are put in place and abused i and the vast majority of citizens would rise up against the government. a government cannot control its population if the people rebel. thats math/fact.

so stop worrying, go become a queen, and do some drama :-D

[drama queens for those who are 'closed minded']

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:44 pm**

Kill ANYONE ANYWHERE on the Earth.
That's what could happen if it fall on wrong hands.
There are still such kind of people around, difference being they don't lead countries like past tyrans, but if they found out the basement, they would be more powerful than anyone! Imagine? Someone who assassinates the president AND Vice president of USA (example) after inflitrating the database? :shock:

Am I paranoid? No I'm not, afterall, everyone knows what kind of evil creatures live as we speak. They could do some kind of raids to take control.
Basically, people in charge of those would be sorts of mini gods.

IF implemented to everyone, which I fully disagree with.
If it's ONLY for people with justice and jail past...it's pretty cool!

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:51 pm**

S0lid Snake wrote:So you won't mind when a criminal cuts the chip from your arm or takes it completely to get at your info?

Oh, wait.. I forgot we were talking about our world where every criminal cuts my arm.

Maybe we should think of the emos too.. who knows, they might hit their chips.
Just put the darned thing in my brain if cutting criminals are such a problem. If I'm dead, I don't care what criminals do with my chip anyway. My personal security is guaranteed as far as possible. If someone wants to kill me, they will most likely succeed anyway. :-)

S0lid Snake wrote:Will you feel safe then?

Of course. Safer as I feel now, with rapists behind every tree at least.

S0lid Snake wrote:There are only a few places the chip can be placed and thus they are easy to locate.

True, because technological advancements are so very slow-going that nanotech isn't going to help out in this field and we all need our chips on the back of our hand instead of safely tucked away in the brain.

S0lid Snake wrote:Whats to stop a kidnapper from removing it and sticking it in a pigeon?

Well.. for one, the fact that a pigeons biosignature is nowhere like mine, and that such a move would be classed as "tampering with ID chips", i.e. "identity fraud", which would be sufficient reason to immediately terminate said kidnapper. Only 3 kidnappers need try this for the system to work without further input.

S0lid Snake wrote:Hell a tech head can hack it at distance without you even knowing it.

I do not *need* to know. If the security of my (very decentralised, nanotech, 'brain' located) chip is compromised, I am not safe anyway. Termination is the logical result of such an attempt. Since the hacker can easily be identified due to the nature of his hacking, terminating the hacker as well will be easy as pie.

S0lid Snake wrote:Still feeling safe?

Yes, more and more. Thank you!

S0lid Snake wrote:Good news is RFID Chips can be terminated by a small E.M.P generator.

Was that the same one that will deactivate my pacemaker and scramble my brains if I get too close?

Now you've done it. I feel unsafe because of your talk about dangerous EMP stuff..

ps. Jim: Erm.. no.

Posted: **Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:17 pm**

LiQuiD wrote:a simple thought:

if we have the technology and political will it will not be soon. it will be in many years. at that point we will have the means to carry out DNA checks therefore cards or chips are pointless.

Not if they are given instant access to the DNA & biometrics databases, and they will, everything is to be tied in. Imagine walking into Tescos and you want a pizza, when you go to pay with your all-in one ID, your told you can not buy the item as your doctor has put a food restriction on your medical records, you have a high BMI, so no pizza for you, here try some celery, your allowed that. This paves the way for total control

and as to the loss of data by the government? well consider the amount of data they handle. errors are not acceptable but they happen. they should happen less though

There should be zero loses. When I work, my employer expects 100% from me. I ask the same of the people I employ, which would be the government.

if someone messes with another persons rights (to a safe and free life) i have no problem with them being forced to carry a card. would you say its wrong to give a serial rapist an ID card? if you do that would show terrible disregard for potential victims and the rights of others

I agree with you on this point. Sexual predators are the very worst scum out there, they can have the cards along with the government.

the truth is that people would not allow any (conspiracy type) laws or plans to be implemented. i believe in my nation. its not perfect but it is my country and i think it is genuine. i do not see an evil regime when i look at the uk. some do. they are misguided, maybe even 'closed minded' if i may quote the conspiracy club motto.

I understand what your saying, I thought that way too, once, but once you see them for what they are, rolling over the poor to claim their bounty, they have been corrupted to the very core. Most have massive scandals they hide from public view, and I'm sure this would be used as leverage to gain their consent.

if the cards, chips or whatever are put in place and abused i and the vast majority of citizens would rise up against the government. a government cannot control its population if the people rebel. thats math/fact.

How will you survive once the system is in place? If you descent, they switch off your ID, no more money or digital credits as they will be, no more food, you can't work, you can't drive & you can't operate most of your house as its all RFID activated. Game over, you starve. An army marches on it's stomach, as do the people, take the food and you take the will and strength to fight back.

so stop worrying, go become a queen, and do some drama
[drama queens for those who are 'closed minded']

You can do better than that...

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