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Thriller wrote:

[KMA]Avenger wrote:
@TheWay, i believe there is a god, but tbh, i have to consider myself agnostic because i also believe that our history has been, shall we say...interfered with by aliens...

that's another story all together and one i wouldn't mind debating...if any ones up for it?

Plz elaborate...

ok, the long and short of it is this...

i believe that sometime in mans past, earth was visited by aliens who manipulated mans DNA and had a hand in mans education, IE. agriculture, astronomy, building, written language and so on.

i have to say this from the start, that this is MY belief and in no way am i saying its 100% truth and its being hidden by our governments, or that a cover up/conspiracy is taking place...blah blah blah.

i base this belief on many inconsistency's on things like, the written/recorded history of the Babylonians. Egyptians, Mayans, the fact that the Nazca lines in Peru can only be seen from above, the recorded history which can be found in the bible like Ezechiel's Wheel, skulls like that of the so called "Star Child Skull" as you can see in the spoiler:

[spoiler]

Lloyd Pye, author of Everything You Know Is Wrong, has taken it upon himself to discover the identity of an unusual skull he has dubbed "The Starchild Skull." The skull, which was found in a mine shaft near Chihuahua, Mexico around 1930, is unusually wide at the back and exhibits larger than normal eye sockets. Although he says the origin of the skull is uncertain, Pye speculates on whether or not it could be of alien origin - or at least belonging to a human-alien hybrid. While some contend that the skull was merely that of a deformed human child, Pye wanted definitive proof and so, in late 1999, subjected the skull to DNA testing. The results of the test indicated that the skull was from a human being, but Pye points out that the lab could not extract sufficient strands of DNA to make a definitive conclusion, and therefore the question still remains open.[/spoiler]

DNA tests cannot verify if the skull is 100% human with a deformity or some kind of hybrid, i look at the skull in the larger scale of things, it may very well be just a child with a deformity, but i've never seen a deformity like that before.

have any of you guys seen the extended edition of the film Stargate?

at the beginning of the film you see the pyramid ship abduct a savage (who becomes the host for Ra), i firmly believe that that kind of incident could have happened in mans distant past...not the abduction host thingy but that kind of contact.

aside from all that, there are many works of art ranging from biblical paintings to recorded events captured in paintings which clearly show flying craft with people inside as well as cave paintings depicting what looks like people wearing some kind of suit and lets not forget the lid of Palenque which depicts someone sitting in a chair operating controls, see spoiler:

[spoiler]

this cave painting is c.10,000 BC and is from Val Camonica, Italy, It appears to depict 2 people or "beings" in protective suits holding strange implements.




this is just 1 picture and you can find MANY more depicting "things" in the sky. in the background you can see a man and his dog, what are they looking at?




that's the lid or plaque of Palenque, make up your own minds on what that looks like.
on a side note, the craftsmanship is staggeringly beautiful




http://www.philipcoppens.com/bbl_plane.html

and what the hell do we make of that lot?[/spoiler]


we also have the recorded history of Alexander the Great. when Alexander pushed the Persians out of Egypt, he was proclaimed Pharaoh of Egypt. at that point the Egyptian priesthood (who were the keepers of knowledge in ancient egypt) gave Alexander a true account of Egypt's history (which was published by Alexanders historian and has been removed from alexanders "official" history). in the account, Alexander was told that Egypt's history stretched back 35.500 years, and that the first rulers of Egypt Were "The Gods" who were succeeded by the Demi-Gods, who were succeeded by "The Titans" who were succeeded by "The Giants" who were themselves succeeded by the human pharaohs of Egypt, this account was also related to Herodotus....who were these "Gods"?
Alexander was also told that Greece and the Greeks were a young race, Alexander asked the priest what he meant and was told that Greece and the Greeks had lost much of their history due to many "catastrophes" and the Greeks restarted from scratch each time losing more and more of their history as time went by.
both Alexander and Herodotus were told that the priesthood fell from father to son and that each priest who died had his statue placed in a line with each statue being succeeded by the son upon his death and so on, forming an unbroken line of succession recorded for all time in stone.

the true power in Egypt was the priesthood, and no Pharaoh ever ruled in Egypt without the priesthoods blessing. each individual upon becoming Pharaoh was then indoctrinated into Egypt's true history by the priesthood.

there is even a picture which was painted when Alexander lay Siege to the city of Tyre which clearly showed a flying craft in the sky, hovering above the city of Tyre.

please also keep in mind that mainstream dating for many of the ancient buildings are WAY out and mainstream cannot even come close to explaining any of them.
for example, the weathering on the sphinx and the pyramids clearly shows weathering damage from rainfall (look this up yourselves), so the question is, when was the last time there was rain in the deserts of the Giza plateau? conservative estimates say that was 7500 years ago, but if you look at the alignment of the pyramids the line up perfectly with orions belt and the last time that the pyramids were in alignment with orions belt was 10.500 years ago.
there's also the Arabian myths surrounding the building of the pyramids which go something like this...

King Surid was contacted by "The Gods" and was told that great flood was coming and that the sum total of mans knowledge should be preserved at all costs. so King Surid set about building the great pyramid which he built in 7 years, and storing mans knowledge in it.
on a side note, small pyramids have also been found in greece which carbon dating of the organic things found within show they predate those found in egypt
i'm not trying to go off subject, simply make a case for alternative thinking due mainly to mainstreams inability to prove anything concrete with regards to the ancient world.
mainstream supporters would have us believe that mans evolution (including his technological evolution) is a straight forward process and very neat and tidy, example, we evolved from apes, climbed down from the trees and moved into wet damp caves drew a few pics on the walls to pass the time till in stopped raining till someone had a brain wave and built himself a hut, we then stay as hunter gatherers for many centuries till we walked out of the wilderness and decide to build magnificent city's and place magnificent structures within those city's simply to gratify our ego's, till we reach the modern age.
well, i for one do not support that view no matter what the experts say, whether aliens visited and influenced our development or not, nothing is ever that straight forward and least of all is our evolution.



i don't look at anyone scrap of information and thinks its all real, i take all of the information and put it all into context. as i said, this is MY belief and in no way am i trying to say there is a conspiracy or cover up, or that alien ships have been recovered or anything like that, frankly there is way to much disinformation and pure BS surrounding that side of this debate to even go down that road, so this will be an intelligent discussion based PURELY on the evidence at hand and from historical accounts (which is what i wanted from the start regarding my other topic about Giants).

P.S.

modem is still stable at this point so i've carried on

if you want to have a look at some really interesting NASA footage of possible UFO incidents, then click below, well worth watching but i do not endorse ANYTHING shown in the footage, i'm simply posting the links for information purposes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As-wYmFYb3I

below is a zoomed picture of 1 of the objects which surround the Tether.



this 2nd clip is only 29 secs long and is a bit grainy but look closely and make up your own mind, i offer NO explanation what so ever.
look at the left hand side of the picture, you will see what looks like an orb drifting very slowly until...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOVQOi2GVvw

and if you want to really get into the conspiracy side of it, then watch this!

http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q ... &aq=0&oq=#


also, a couple months back, i looked up and saw what i thought was an extremely bright star and thought "what the hell is the north star doing in the south eastern part of the sky??? my face at the time looked allot like this emote>
it was extremely bright so i looked at some other stars for comparison and when i looked back the star in question grew fainter and fainter until it disappeared completely. this lasted for no more than 45 seconds and from what i could see, i was looking at a star.
i'm not claiming that i saw a UFO because tbh, i don't know what the hell it was, it was simply very bright and very high which reinforced my belief at the time that i was looking at a star (hence why i looked away to get a comparison), but stars are not "that" bright and don't disappear.

i've never seen anything like that before and have never seen anything even closely resembling a mainstream "UFO", so make what you will of that.
this is a far as i will go on the modern or mainstream "UFO" phenomenon, and will not get drawn into the conspiracy side of it.

surely i deserve a medal for reading all that

1st point is the vast distances involved in traveling to other worlds. alien visitors would have to have faster than light travel to do this. from what i know thats not possible (in terms of spaceships). i believe aliens exist but them being able to reach us seems highly unlikely. but theres much humanity doesnt know.



2nd point is that we have identified no evidence at all of alien intelligences, despite much effort. wouldnt someone have produced some data from observations of the universe? aliens within a sensible distance of earth would leave many signs of their presence, depending on their level of advancement. why have we not seen signs of them?

[KMA]Avenger wrote:believe that sometime in mans past, earth was visited by aliens who manipulated mans DNA and had a hand in mans education, IE. agriculture, astronomy, building, written language and so on.

would the adaptive radiation of human like species suggests man is in no way special? if aliens had altered us in our past, would they also have altered our now extinct genetic cousins? seems unrealistic to say the least. evolution is a proven chain of events and adaption. granted there are some missing links but its generally clear to see.



if an advanced alien species visited us why would we spend almost our entire history living as primitive creatures. id guess they could advance humanity quicker than that. its a lot more sensible to credit sudden human advancement to singularities, not little green visitors.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:the fact that the Nazca lines in Peru can only be seen from above

they are weird, and amazing. would love to see them. theres a few theories going around about the lines. the possibility of ancient air balloons for example, although im not convinced on that one. its quite simple to draw massive objects on the ground with basic knowledge. its been suggested that their creators used mind altering drugs and while tripping they could 'see' their work as if they were flying.



the starchild is weak evidence. progeria is a more likely alternative over the child being an alien etc.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:but i've never seen a deformity like that before

look up progeria.



as to paintings and drawings? they are from the human imagination and therefore open to an individuals manipulation. some show what appears to be spacesuits and the like but i attribute this to chance and some creative artistry.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:also, a couple months back, i looked up and saw what i thought was an extremely bright star and thought "what the hell is the north star doing in the south eastern part of the sky??? my face at the time looked allot like this emote>
it was extremely bright so i looked at some other stars for comparison and when i looked back the star in question grew fainter and fainter until it disappeared completely. this lasted for no more than 45 seconds and from what i could see, i was looking at a star.
i'm not claiming that i saw a UFO because tbh, i don't know what the hell it was, it was simply very bright and very high which reinforced my belief at the time that i was looking at a star (hence why i looked away to get a comparison), but stars are not "that" bright and don't disappear.

i've never seen anything like that before and have never seen anything even closely resembling a mainstream "UFO", so make what you will of that.
this is a far as i will go on the modern or mainstream "UFO" phenomenon, and will not get drawn into the conspiracy side of it.

who knows what it was mate. perhaps a satellite reflecting the sun? they can get very bright when reflecting at certain angles. a UFO though i doubt, as you probably do too. id put it down to natural phenomena or man-made satellite.

i had a similar thing happen to me. looked online, tracked what i saw, found out it was a satellite. and last week i saw a massive and bright flash in the sky. the sky was clear and there was no bang and id only smoked some weed, not a lot of weed.




overall there is no solid evidence regarding alien visitations. id bet a steak dinner humanity is the only intelligence to ever have wandered our lil green planet.

i strongly believe aliens exist. i also strongly believe they are impossibly distant.

read chariots of the gods? its interesting but not exactly informative. i think you would enjoy reading it.

did you see any of the files released by the MOD? one was a sighting by an italian jet which was confirmed by radar. now thats interesting. wonder what it was. peaceout

well, to put it bluntly, I am a fan of Daniel Jacksons theory. ROFL... but i guess that also didnt have much evidence

first point to take, modern/conventional carbon dating techniques may have their flawes but its the best weve got. nothing much genetic alteration can do about it.

in order for humanity to come back looking up to the sky, they have to at least find a way to unpollute the world. Those visitors will definitely pawn our arses if we keep up this climate catastrophe

2nd point, in my experience as an avid viewer of tv documentaries/programs, ive seen much of what the latter writer saw about the starchild, egypt, etc. You forgot about the tale of the bermuda, the lost city of tiquanaco, the connection of the pyramids from egypt to mexico even to japan and you especially forgot about Babylonia. cheers

Great thread, thanks for starting this.

1st things 1st...*hands Liquid a gold medal*

2nd, thanks to those who have posted with common sense, hopefully this thread will go a few pages more

1st we all have to admit (no matter what we personally believe) that there is no single shred of evidence we can point to which conclusively proves beyond all doubt that aliens do exist or have been to earth, much less have tampered with our DNA, however...the story's regarding the "Gods" or in some cases, "The Teachers" who came from "Far Away Lands" are to numerous and to similar to be ignored.

@simouny: while mainstream tends to dismiss contact between the central Asian civilizations and the Americas, we know for a fact that the ancient Egyptians did have boats that could sail the open seas, not just the Nile river. many boats have been dug up in and around the Giza Plateau which proves they could sail the open seas, yet mainstream dismissed these as "Soul Boats" for ferrying a dead kings spirit to the "other side"., that's just to ridiculous for obvious reasons, the main reason being that boats have high bows for breaking waves, not sailing the cosmos to reach the stars.
so if they had the know how to sail the open seas, then it stands to reason there may well have had contact with other civilizations, and there is much evidence to prove this did infact happen...if i'm not mistaken, weren't tobacco leaves found in Egypt?
my point is that i haven't forgotten or overlooked anything because there is ALLOT of information with regards to this subject and not possible to include it all in 1 post...did you see how long the first was!? lol

moving on;

@liquid, thanks for the info regarding Progeria, if i am to keep an open mind then i have to concede that its quite possible "the starchild" did suffer from a deformity, be it progeria or some other, as i said from the outset.
i have looked at many diseases and progeria seems to come the closest to explaining the skull so far.

evolution is a proven chain and while mainstream may not be able to explain many of these anomalies that doesn't necessarily mean because it cant explain them that it rules out evolution or mans intellect and ingenuity altogether, thereby leaving the only other explanation as alien contact, but alien contact does seem to fit.

we have been listening to the heavens for a long time and while we have not had any contact as yet that doesn't rule out a conspiracy (yes i know that i said i wouldn't go down this road but stay with me). we may very have had contact but the "Aliens" may have proved untrustworthy and therefor our govts are keeping them away (look up HAARP), or they fear that we as a people are not ready if they came forward and admitted it, and that our civilization would collapse into anarchy, in which case, our Govts are unsung heroes, not dismissing the possibility that we have not made contact because there is no contact to be made, just something to ponder on.

as far as the technology to get around vast distances is concerned, i'm no scientist but we will have that ability in the next few hundred years, baring any catastrophe and self inflicted destruction, so whose to say that some far older civilization doesn't already posses such ability!?
i know that's thin but if we conceded that there may well be other life forms out there then it becomes a possibility and highly reasonable, regardless if they have been here or not.
i once saw a program on TV that stated as fact that the commercial side of technology is a minimum of 10 years behind what corporations and govts actually possess, and as far as space tech goes, we don't even know the half of what govts actually have.
but that's highly suspect so i'll leave that were it is, but i will say this...

i watched a program about abandoned govt projects and one such project was nuclear powered rocketry. the tech behind it was very simple making it very reliable, take one nuclear generator and 2 super heated plates and jet any flammable gas between the plates and you have a rocket that is far safer because of fewer parts, and up to 10x more powerful than the rockets we have even today.
the first test firing was a success and shortly after, the project was canceled for no reason, my guess is as good as anybody's, but the theory goes that the oil company's stood to loose allot of money, but hey, that's another conspiracy

as for the paintings, even the most imaginative artist needs something to have as a comparison, i think it very unlikely that somebody could come up with something like the spacesuit pics or the lid of palenque from their imagination...why would a picture of 2 people need to wear a suit, and where would an ancient artist get the notion of tech from if he has no comparison to draw on?

we also have to consider that the ancients developed tech all by themselves since we still cant explain how they bored out the insides of small stone vases given that the vases are very narrow at the neck, and what about the "Baghdad Battery", which proves the ancients had electricity, as well as the fact that very long passages cut into bedrock beneath structures show no signs of soot thereby ruling out the use of mirrors and fire, so it beggars belief they may have had artificial light.

the kings chamber sarcophagus is another curiosity, another documentary i saw brought in a drilling specialist who said even today we would not be able to drill or mill such a work of art.
the specialist looked at the grain of the cut and stated that the stone was cut with great speed and precision, something we would not be able to do, even with the best drill bits or other means.

and lets not forget Piri Reese, a turkish admiral in the ottoman fleet who had maps of Antarctica free of ice. on the maps you can clearly see mountain ranges and rivers, Piri Reese even said that his maps were based on far older maps that he copied

where did all this tech in the ancient world come from because i find it highly improbable that man could have come up with all this if we accept the mainstream time line for human development.

i read chariots a few years back and it seemed very dated in parts, was still a good read nonetheless. have you read "odyssey of the gods-the alien history of ancient greece" and "the eyes of the sphinx" by the same author?
both are an excellent read.

yet another long post lol *gets the meddles ready*

@Thriller:

your welcome, enjoy


P.S.

@liquid, its good to see your back on these boards again, i assume you have been busy in R/L.
we may have vastly differing views but its people like you who keep me constantly questioning myself and beliefs

space travel over vast distances does take a long time (in our time scale)

but lifespan of creatures is very variable even on this planet things can live for a few days or couple of hundred year for non-human creatures and plants can live for several thousand years - sometimes we need to think out of the box

very true, never thought of that.

very short post, great nonetheless

makes sense coz he's a borg. they never age. rofl

*polishes medal*

[KMA]Avenger wrote:the story's regarding the "Gods" or in some cases, "The Teachers" who came from "Far Away Lands" are to numerous and to similar to be ignored.

it is in human nature to invent and create, even if theres no factual basis for what they come up with. the teachers could well have been a seafaring race such as the Phoenicians (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7700356.stm) or other similar civilization. humanity has always moved around, crossing oceans and spreading ideas through trade.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:we know for a fact that the ancient Egyptians did have boats that could sail the open seas, not just the Nile river. many boats have been dug up in and around the Giza Plateau which proves they could sail the open seas, yet mainstream dismissed these as "Soul Boats" for ferrying a dead kings spirit to the "other side"., that's just to ridiculous for obvious reasons, the main reason being that boats have high bows for breaking waves, not sailing the cosmos to reach the stars.
so if they had the know how to sail the open seas, then it stands to reason there may well have had contact with other civilizations, and there is much evidence to prove this did in fact happen.

from what i have learned their boats were fairly primitive (although advanced for the time) and would most likely be unsuitable for long ocean voyages. ancient egypt lacked wood therefore many boats were made from papyrus which isnt very durable in harsh conditions. the nile was used by them as it was efficient, easy and useful. travel within the mediterranean is largely accepted but i dont think ships of that time could have crossed vast distances, even the wooden (ceder) ones. id not say the occasional passage couldnt have been possible though. the clovis people traveled to north america many thousands of years ago for example. their journey was aided by an ice age i think.



from what i know of evolution we would be able to tell if human DNA had been altered dramatically in the past.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:we may very have had contact but the "Aliens" may have proved untrustworthy and therefor our govts are keeping them away (look up HAARP), or they fear that we as a people are not ready if they came forward and admitted it, and that our civilization would collapse into anarchy, in which case, our Govts are unsung heroes, not dismissing the possibility that we have not made contact because there is no contact to be made, just something to ponder on.

contact with aliens who are far distant is impossible for us as things stand. if aliens were discovered i cant see any way it would/could be kept secret. scientists would discover it if it were true and therefore there would hard evidence to show. we wouldnt collapse into anarchy. we are too used to the idea for it to cause much shock. yes just because we havent made contact it doesnt mean we wont. i was thinking of this recently. contact is possible over the course of several millennium or longer.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:as far as the technology to get around vast distances is concerned, i'm no scientist but we will have that ability in the next few hundred years, baring any catastrophe and self inflicted destruction, so whose to say that some far older civilization doesn't already posses such ability!?

if two particles both traveling at the speed of light collide, the speed of collision is the speed of light, not twice the speed of light. this seems to suggest light speed is as fast as we can go. i believe information is the only exception. physics as we know it doesnt allow anything to go faster than light. we may eventually break this limit but it will not be any time soon. more likely thousands of years rather than hundreds, if at all.

as to far older civilizations? most likely they no longer exist. one of the few proposed ways for different advanced species to interact is by creating a massive database which all species can contact and leave information about their selves on. by the time another civilization contacts this database previous species would probably be extinct. we are far, far away from being able to construct such a thing. its somewhat of a miracle that humanity survives at all. human history is tiny. the age of human technology is smaller still. considering the small window where we are advanced enough to look for aliens the chances of encountering another species in their own window is small.



a nuclear rocket cant exactly be considered safer than conventional rockets lol radiation isnt healthy. there was another project that involved exploding successive nukes below a spacecraft at precisely calculated moments to 'blow' the craft into space. no thats mad



the palenque is interesting. can still be explained by chance and creativity though in truth. and what looks to be spacesuits to us could have been anything to the artistic fellow who created the pictures.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:and where would an ancient artist get the notion of tech from if he has no comparison to draw on?

there was some tech in the ancient world. for example the steam train could have been invented many centuries before it was if chance had favored it. a steam engine was made long ago and tracks were used. if only they were combined we may be living in a world spanning greek empire now

[KMA]Avenger wrote:we also have to consider that the ancients developed tech all by themselves since we still cant explain how they bored out the insides of small stone vases given that the vases are very narrow at the neck, and what about the "Baghdad Battery", which proves the ancients had electricity, as well as the fact that very long passages cut into bedrock beneath structures show no signs of soot thereby ruling out the use of mirrors and fire, so it beggars belief they may have had artificial light.

the Baghdad Battery is very theoretical. it wouldnt produce useful amounts of electricity. there are also technical problems with its construction which would stop it working/reduce its efficiency greatly. the battery shows they may have known of electricity, but they didnt understand it. these types of battery would not have been capable of producing artificial light due to lack of voltage. it is a very interesting artifact though. the idea it would have been used to awe people with a tingling sensation is incredible considering the date. there are many ways to explain how light can be obtained for underground work. . .

[KMA]Avenger wrote:the kings chamber sarcophagus is another curiosity, another documentary i saw brought in a drilling specialist who said even today we would not be able to drill or mill such a work of art.
the specialist looked at the grain of the cut and stated that the stone was cut with great speed and precision, something we would not be able to do, even with the best drill bits or other means.

i highly doubt we couldnt surpass any ancient efforts, excluding things where time is essential. bear in mind the time they put into things in the ancient world. projects were undertaken over generations.



were the Piri Reese maps proven accurate?

[KMA]Avenger wrote:where did all this tech in the ancient world come from because i find it highly improbable that man could have come up with all this if we accept the mainstream time line for human development.

thousands of years of human ingenuity and trail and error. learning little things gradually over time.



ive only read chariots of the gods. lol its very outdated. i think that adds to the experience of reading it in the context of what we now know. many things in the book have now been proven wrong but its still interesting. you may enjoy a fictional novel called atlantis found by clive cussler. look it up sometime.

yep ive been a bit busy of late but i do enjoy a good debate with ye



just a quick final point. if the ancient civilizations were so advanced why would they construct pyramids like this
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1pHL6gO2mHM/R4Fjl ... G_4302.JPG
this demonstrates trial and error rather than spontaneous knowledge/ advancement. peaceout

thousands of years of human ingenuity and trail and error. learning little things gradually over time.

yeah, the first builders of the pyramids proves this
the step pyramid by djoser

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories ... ramid1.htm

dynasties upon dynasties changed their style until they perfected the tecnique

it's also quite possible that the reason for the pyramid being very popular among the ancient peoples, and therefore end up being the main construction design, is that the design is very simple and yet it can hold up its own as evidenced by the civilizations who made them that still stand today. Every civilization on earth at a period in time would have been as advanced as their culture and experience could allow. and at multiple stages, they could have ended up making the pyramids, ziggurats, temples which have almost identical designs. ultimately, we have to look at these ancient monuments with awe of their great achievement and not discount the fact that humans could have easily out done themselves rather than accredit it to space cowboys.

The evidence that intelligent life is 'out there' is proved by the fact that they havent visited us yet.

It is unlikey that a species advanced enough to cross the vast distances between stars in a single lifetime (even assuming for a lifetime of several hundred years) would descend up the earth leave a few vague artefacts and bits of what are essentially global graffitti and then leave again.

If they came to help us well where are they now? If they came to hurt us how did we fight them off if they had the tech to cross the distances?

by the way i should also give LiQuiD another medal for a debate that could become a book in itself... very nicely opinionated through facts and great wisdom.

i'm putting this post in a spoiler because...well, you'll see why


[spoiler]

LiQuiD wrote:*polishes medal*

[KMA]Avenger wrote:the story's regarding the "Gods" or in some cases, "The Teachers" who came from "Far Away Lands" are to numerous and to similar to be ignored.

it is in human nature to invent and create, even if theres no factual basis for what they come up with. the teachers could well have been a seafaring race such as the Phoenicians (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7700356.stm) or other similar civilization. humanity has always moved around, crossing oceans and spreading ideas through trade.

this is true, and i dont discount this maybe the case but, in the Americas these were tall "White" men with very long silvery white beards who taught the early american peoples animal husbandry, agriculture, astrology and written language amongst other other skills. when these teachers left they did say they would return, which is why when the conquistadors arrived in the americas, they were greeted with open arms. for these the "Teachers" made it clear that they wouldn't be returning for a long time but they would return, for them to say that they must be very long lived peoples, unless they were from the other side of the planet and it wouldn't be them that would return but there fellow man, but Quetzalcoatl (the main teacher) made it clear he would return in person.
these may well be fairy tales, but the mayans and other native american civilizations consider them serious enough to sacrifice people to the "Gods" in order to hasten their return.

LiQuiD wrote:

[KMA]Avenger wrote:we know for a fact that the ancient Egyptians did have boats that could sail the open seas, not just the Nile river. many boats have been dug up in and around the Giza Plateau which proves they could sail the open seas, yet mainstream dismissed these as "Soul Boats" for ferrying a dead kings spirit to the "other side"., that's just to ridiculous for obvious reasons, the main reason being that boats have high bows for breaking waves, not sailing the cosmos to reach the stars.
so if they had the know how to sail the open seas, then it stands to reason there may well have had contact with other civilizations, and there is much evidence to prove this did in fact happen.

from what i have learned their boats were fairly primitive (although advanced for the time) and would most likely be unsuitable for long ocean voyages. ancient egypt lacked wood therefore many boats were made from papyrus which isnt very durable in harsh conditions. the nile was used by them as it was efficient, easy and useful. travel within the mediterranean is largely accepted but i dont think ships of that time could have crossed vast distances, even the wooden (ceder) ones. id not say the occasional passage couldnt have been possible though. the clovis people traveled to north america many thousands of years ago for example. their journey was aided by an ice age i think.



from what i know of evolution we would be able to tell if human DNA had been altered dramatically in the past.

i have considered that and i would hope that is true, but i recently heard that the scientific community has declared (cant remember exact figure) about 90% of our DNA as junk

LiQuiD wrote:

[KMA]Avenger wrote:we may very have had contact but the "Aliens" may have proved untrustworthy and therefor our govts are keeping them away (look up HAARP), or they fear that we as a people are not ready if they came forward and admitted it, and that our civilization would collapse into anarchy, in which case, our Govts are unsung heroes, not dismissing the possibility that we have not made contact because there is no contact to be made, just something to ponder on.

contact with aliens who are far distant is impossible for us as things stand. if aliens were discovered i cant see any way it would/could be kept secret. scientists would discover it if it were true and therefore there would hard evidence to show. we wouldnt collapse into anarchy. we are too used to the idea for it to cause much shock. yes just because we havent made contact it doesnt mean we wont. i was thinking of this recently. contact is possible over the course of several millennium or longer.

in our present level of tech ability, yes direct contact outside of our solar system is impossible.
i tend to look at what little evidence has been found so far and use what fits, written records may yet be found that have recorded exactly which pharaoh built the sphinx and pyramids, for what purpose and if we are even luckier than that...how they built them, crushing all debate about them once and for all, i dont rule out human genius and tenacity.

as for the anarchy side of things, i agree we wouldnt collapse as a whole and i should have been more clear, its the zealots, religious nutjobs if you will, that would claim all kinds of things IF they made it public that aliens did in fact exist...take the creationists for example, they think the earth is 6000 years old and when you ask them how they account for dinosaur bones, they reply that "God" placed them on the earth to test our faith

LiQuiD wrote:

[KMA]Avenger wrote:as far as the technology to get around vast distances is concerned, i'm no scientist but we will have that ability in the next few hundred years, baring any catastrophe and self inflicted destruction, so whose to say that some far older civilization doesn't already posses such ability!?

if two particles both traveling at the speed of light collide, the speed of collision is the speed of light, not twice the speed of light. this seems to suggest light speed is as fast as we can go. i believe information is the only exception. physics as we know it doesnt allow anything to go faster than light. we may eventually break this limit but it will not be any time soon. more likely thousands of years rather than hundreds, if at all.

using conventional means, IE. rockets or some other form of thrust be it nuclear or whatever,i agree, we wouldnt be able to break the light speed barrier, i SERIOUSLY doubt any kind of thrust engine could even get close to lightspeed, to say nothing of the structural side of such a ship, meaning, i'm no engineer but i think it laughable that 1, we could create a thrust motor capable of reaching such speeds and 2, that a ship with such a powerful motor would stay in 1 piece, even if the speed was increased VERY slowly.
however, someone once asked me which is faster, light or gravity, not knowing about science i was perplexed till said friend asked me which would go 1st if the sun up an vanished instantly, the light from the sun or the gravity, well we all know that light from the sun takes about 8 mins to reach us, but the gravity of the sun would go instantly
said friend knows a hell of allot more about physics than i do so who am i to argue!?

LiQuiD wrote:as to far older civilizations? most likely they no longer exist. one of the few proposed ways for different advanced species to interact is by creating a massive database which all species can contact and leave information about their selves on. by the time another civilization contacts this database previous species would probably be extinct. we are far, far away from being able to construct such a thing. its somewhat of a miracle that humanity survives at all. human history is tiny. the age of human technology is smaller still. considering the small window where we are advanced enough to look for aliens the chances of encountering another species in their own window is small.

thats a great paragraph, a galactic knowledge base, that would be the find of all time

its very possible other alien civilizations could have had an even tougher time than us and have indeed died away for any number of reasons, but an older space fairing civilization would stand a much higher chance of saving themselves if there planet was dieing for whatever reason, be it asteroid impact, natural disaster or even some kind of plague.

LiQuiD wrote:a nuclear rocket cant exactly be considered safer than conventional rockets lol radiation isnt healthy. there was another project that involved exploding successive nukes below a spacecraft at precisely calculated moments to 'blow' the craft into space. no thats mad

as i've said, i'm no scientist and can only quote what i saw in the program, but it did state it as fact that enough of the project was known to make a statement of high safety and reliability regarding the nuclear rocket. it would have made traveling around our solar system a reality if true, and i for one would like to see such experiments receive maximum attention, just so we could get around our solar system.

exploding any kind of bomb beneath a ship in order to generate thrust is well....

LiQuiD wrote:the palenque is interesting. can still be explained by chance and creativity though in truth. and what looks to be spacesuits to us could have been anything to the artistic fellow who created the pictures.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:and where would an ancient artist get the notion of tech from if he has no comparison to draw on?

there was some tech in the ancient world. for example the steam train could have been invented many centuries before it was if chance had favored it. a steam engine was made long ago and tracks were used. if only they were combined we may be living in a world spanning greek empire now

all of the above is true, but i think it pretty thin with regards to the 1st line.
i did see a documentary once regarding steam power in the ancient world and they did in fact use steam power to open doors and for all sorts of gadgets.

LiQuiD wrote:

[KMA]Avenger wrote:we also have to consider that the ancients developed tech all by themselves since we still cant explain how they bored out the insides of small stone vases given that the vases are very narrow at the neck, and what about the "Baghdad Battery", which proves the ancients had electricity, as well as the fact that very long passages cut into bedrock beneath structures show no signs of soot thereby ruling out the use of mirrors and fire, so it beggars belief they may have had artificial light.

the Baghdad Battery is very theoretical. it wouldnt produce useful amounts of electricity. there are also technical problems with its construction which would stop it working/reduce its efficiency greatly. the battery shows they may have known of electricity, but they didnt understand it. these types of battery would not have been capable of producing artificial light due to lack of voltage. it is a very interesting artifact though. the idea it would have been used to awe people with a tingling sensation is incredible considering the date. there are many ways to explain how light can be obtained for underground work. . .

again very true, but the Baghdad battery may have been a scaled down version of a much lager battery producing much higher voltage (still not very efficient) or a forerunner of some as yet undiscovered tech, just like someone in a few thousand years (degradation allowing) might find a Duracell and not know we had nuclear fusion.

LiQuiD wrote:

[KMA]Avenger wrote:the kings chamber sarcophagus is another curiosity, another documentary i saw brought in a drilling specialist who said even today we would not be able to drill or mill such a work of art.
the specialist looked at the grain of the cut and stated that the stone was cut with great speed and precision, something we would not be able to do, even with the best drill bits or other means.

i highly doubt we couldnt surpass any ancient efforts, excluding things where time is essential. bear in mind the time they put into things in the ancient world. projects were undertaken over generations.

projects were indeed undertaken within large time frames, possibly even over generations but we still cant build a pyramid of the scale and grandeur of the 3 pyramids at giza or any other from the ancient world, so they did indeed possess either a tech or simple know how to make such things.
as to the sarcophagus, the drilling specialist analyzed the grain of the cut in the stone which gave him all the knowledge he needed to form the opinion that it was cut with great speed and supreme accuracy.
its quite possible that human history stretches much father back than mainstream will allow for and that all this tech and/or know how was invented by man over MANY generations, i'm in no way dismissing that as a viable possibility and i do consider it a very good explanation as to the anomalies of the ancient world, i firmly believe that much of the ability was gained from human ingenuity, but i also believe we had in mans early development a kind of, gentle push start if you will.

LiQuiD wrote:were the Piri Reese maps proven accurate?

the maps were indeed proven accurate and more importantly piri reese was telling the truth with regards to far older maps. these maps were located in the great library of alexandria and other such great houses of learning. few were privileged enough to study/use these maps and there existence was a closely guarded secret because they were not only maps but they accurately showed shipping lanes.
when the crusades happened, these maps were discovered and taken by the europeans and its rumored that Columbus possessed such a map which allowed him to "discover" the new world.
this is a letter from a US colonel in the US cartography dept to professor charles hapgood who studied the map and sent it to some of the best map experts in the world because what it showed and what piri reeese wrote on the original map regarding far older maps was to fantastic to believe at the time.


6, July, 1960
Subject: Admiral Piri Reis Map
TO: Prof. Charles H. Hapgood
Keene College
Keene, New Hampshire


Dear Professor Hapgood,
Your request of evaluation of certain unusual features of the Piri Reis map of 1513 by this organization has been reviewed.
The claim that the lower part of the map portrays the Princess Martha Coast of Queen Maud Land, Antarctic, and the Palmer Peninsular, is reasonable. We find that this is the most logical and in all probability the correct interpretation of the map.
The geographical detail shown in the lower part of the map agrees very remarkably with the results of the seismic profile made across the top of the ice-cap by the Swedish-British Antarctic Expedition of 1949.
This indicates the coastline had been mapped before it was covered by the ice-cap.
The ice-cap in this region is now about a mile thick.
We have no idea how the data on this map can be reconciled with the supposed state of geographical knowledge in 1513.

Harold Z. Ohlmeyer Lt. Colonel, USAF Commander

for those that don't know about map making, its an exact science and to depict an accurate map you can pick up and use to sail to the other side of the world and land exactly where you need to, requires you to draw a sphere on a flat surface and to have knowledge of longitude and latitude.
longitude wasnt "discovered" (or rediscovered) till the 17th century, latitude is easy, just use the north star i believe.

LiQuiD wrote:

[KMA]Avenger wrote:where did all this tech in the ancient world come from because i find it highly improbable that man could have come up with all this if we accept the mainstream time line for human development.

thousands of years of human ingenuity and trail and error. learning little things gradually over time.

i never rule out time, trial and error or human ingenuity

LiQuiD wrote:ive only read chariots of the gods. lol its very outdated. i think that adds to the experience of reading it in the context of what we now know. many things in the book have now been proven wrong but its still interesting. you may enjoy a fictional novel called atlantis found by clive cussler. look it up sometime.

i'll look that book up, thanks.

i like EvD.s books, there always a great read

LiQuiD wrote:yep i've been a bit busy of late but i do enjoy a good debate with ye

likewise

so when we having that drink?

LiQuiD wrote:just a quick final point. if the ancient civilizations were so advanced why would they construct pyramids like this
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1pHL6gO2mHM/R4Fjl ... G_4302.JPG
this demonstrates trial and error rather than spontaneous knowledge/ advancement. peaceout

as i said just above, i never rule it out, but a better question is...

why did they build like that, go onto much bigger and better and then revert to mounds of crumbling mud bricks of pyramids?

surely the logic of trial and error dictates that the pyramids which came after those of the Giza plateau would be either more grand, or if they believed they had reached the zenith of there engineering ability's and unable to surpass those of the Giza Plateau, stopped building them altogether?

we haven't even touched on the pyramids outer casing yet, or some of the stone walls found in the americas, built so exquisitely they can withstand earthquakes, have no mortar to hold them together and carved so precisely that you cant squeeze a sheet of paper in between them...


time and human ingenuity or alien knowledge, both opinions open to debate.

more pics and questions from the ancient world to come as the discussion unfolds.

[/spoiler]


P.S.

out of curiosity, has anyone seen the 2 films i posted the links to, and if so, what did you make of them?

the first vid really did look like an image from a microscope and the 2nd one i couldnt really explain but i think it was just a meteorite in unison with a star. thats just my opinion because ive seen slides from the pond water and they really look just like that. Add the voice over and it would really look like a NASA footage.

the 1st vid made caused allot of controversy because the tether experiment did take place as well as what happened after, the lights hovering around the tether after it broke loose could simply be some kind of as yet unknown phenomena...who knows.

as to the 2nd vid, meteors and stars dont change direction, i'm not saying thats its a 100% proof of alien contact, just simply saying.