Freedom of Message

[TheWay]

I have been recently annoyed at the worst and a little confused at the best in regards to the quick closing of topics that suppose error on the side of administration. Case in point Stu and Mystake's post which were for all intents quite within the bounds of reasonable complaints and have every right to be open for discussion.

It concerns me that a post was opened with a decent although strongly stated complaint and that the topic was closed not because of the inappropriate response of those insulting this person but rather because someone felt the topic was not needed or inappropriate.

The players in this game reserve some rights to at least discuss things they do not like. Yes, they may be wrong but at least hear them. What are we afraid of?

Jason has created a great game and the way it will improve is if he has the ability to hear complaints no matter their nature.

Closing a topic because of a wrong approach is fine but it was closed because someone didn’t like the subject or contents of the argument.

I believe this needs to be corrected by reopening the post and combining it with Mystake's post then a formal apology should be given to the community at large.

You may flame this topic all you want but the moment we suppress someone’s opinion about this game is the moment at which we no longer have a say and as the customer we are always entitled to be heard.

P.S. I could give a rats butt whether a ppt was issued or not but i thought the complaint was valid and I understood his argument.

[weilandsmith]

Yes you can voice your opinions or post complaints. In this case, please do it in the right section

Moved to Forum/Mod Feedback

[Juliette]

And TheWay, might I suggest talking to Pianomutt20000, the Ombudsman, if your problem is unresolveable after talks with our dearest administration here? He can help, and is sure to listen.

[TheWay]

okay will do but i wonder can I have the mods oppinions on the actions of the forum and also their view on the rules that would reflect the actions

I am not doing this to pick on the mods, I have hardly ever had an issue with any of you and I think what you do is a great service to us. I do want to ahve this resolved though if possible

[deni]

I can only repeat what I said about the closing of Mystake's thread.

sorry it got locked, I read that. However it was locked on a moderator's personal feelings that there is "little" reason to complain.


The only people who are telling others to get over it are those who did not lose much.

Jason specifically said he'd PPT the game if the server went down for more than 3 hours. I can't quote it, I just know it. I guarantee he wasn't the one who put the game back online (granted it was probably a datacentre thing and Jason wasn't aware that people couldn't get on).

So to those saying get over it... why don't you look at your logs and see how much you lost in comparison to those who lost more. To Zeratul who uses his own MODERATOR's judgement to decide that a game event is insignificant, I will be depositing a formal complaint over that because this is SGW General and that thread discusses an event directly related to the game, something that I do not believe that you should use personal judgment to decide it is insignificant even though others were affected more severely than you were.

As a moderator I think you should keep the topic from derailing rather than claim dictatorship over someone else's opinion.

That's all.

That is the opening post of the thread in question. It was made only with the purpose of questioning Zeratul's decision and directed in him. As a complaint was already posted here, the thread was redundant and thus locked.

[Wolf359]

Mostly they are locked because they serve no real purpose, or people are simply not using the system as it should be used to complain - then they complain that their complaint isn't being heard, even though they've been told that if they actually want to complain, there is a correct process to do it. Quite a lot of it is people just trying to be clever or big themselves up.

I don't really see the point in your post though - since it's already covered here to a large extent (just 1 post below yours at the time I write this)...

viewtopic.php?f=128&t=128718

... and this is part of what I'm talking about - the above thread is already covering what your thread is about. Also, it actually got locked itself before I intervened and had it re-opened.

So you see? We're not always out to lock such things - but, in the case of the threads you are talking about, they were locked with what the mods believed to be justifiable reasons; if the authors, or anyone else believe those reasons are not justified then they should take it up with the mods in question, or take it through the proper procedure with the ombudsman if they remain unsatisfied.

I saw the reasons given (i.e. there is no rule that states you WILL get a free PPT if the game is down) and saw no reason, personally, to object - some reasons were also restated in the above linked thread (i.e. that since the author had already made a complaint thread, the thread that was locked was redundant) - not to mention the SGW terms of service we all agreed to when we started playing!

Oh, and LOCKED......just kidding...........

[TheWay]

Okay I see your point. However let me explain if I may my view.

1. I did not even know this section existed and so I did not know that the complaint against the mods was still open. Maybe it should have been clear to me but it wasnt and I do apologize for that.

2. If a mod uses his or her power to close a post without the permission of the writter then their reason should be made clear and should be supported by the rules of the forum and the authorities given to the mod. What I am saying is if the mod can close any post they want with the reasoning that they see no value in the subject of the post then this forum has lost its way.

Look the post made with a complaint about the ppt was a perfectly acceptable post and others agreed so why not act as a mod and stop the insulting rather then taking the easy route and just closing the post. I do not know which mod closed the post because I ahve purposely not gone to loook because I think this is an issue about rules and authorities rather then this particular issue.

3. The Obudsman is great I am sure however if I as a customer in this game cannot get an answer when there are sufficent mods to do so then there is also a problem. Each one of you should be able to read this post and then answer the issue I am bringing whether you do it in this post or behind closed doors I do not care, because I ahve no desire to embarress or call anyone out.

4. I have the expectation that this issue will be resolved and that rules or guidlines will be set in place so that in the future this does not happen again. If someone makes a complaint the complaint should be allowed to run it's course and the mods should enforce the rules that they have been asked to enforce but as far as I know it is not your place to make decisions on what posts are worthy to be discussed, let the community decide what they want to discuss. I mean it was clear that the comunity had spoken and most didnt care about the post and within a day it would have beeen a non issue.

- Do me a favor please and at least let me know if you are even discussing this issue and if you do I think the community at large deserves to hear the out come. I am not saying anyone should be in any trouble because that is rediculus, but there should be guidelines so this doesnt happen again

[Wolf359]

1. The rules of the forum and the rules/tos of the game are available for all to view - the two are not mutually exclusive.

2. As stated in the tos - there are no guarantee/warranty in this game - which means if the game does go down for a while, then there is no guarantee of a PPT - despite what may or may not have been said in the past. Personally, I've been here longer than most, and cannot recall anything ever being said along the lines claimed - a possibility, maybe - a definate, no! The reason given for the locking of the post was justified - and as already stated, if the author/anyone else was not satisfied, they can contact the mod/ombudsman.

3. We have, and I believe I did. Not happy? See the ombudsman.

4. What issue exactly? Everything has been done within the rules of the forum and/or rules/tos of the game. Where things have not been done correctly is in how users have approached the locking of threads - i.e. in the follow up complaint procedure - Mystake even said as much in his thread in this section.

As for your last comment - as stated above - not exactly sure what your issue is, or indeed what outcome you are referring to - mods locked threads because of forum and/or game rules/tos. No other senior mods saw sufficient need to overrule this decision. In the same vein, mods have no say in whatever the outcome may be for a demand of a free PPT - although I suspect it is highly unlikely. If the author(s)/other users are unhappy with mod actions then they have at least 3 options to take it further:

a) conatct the specific mod
b) contact a senior mod/admin
c) contact the ombudsman

Unless any (or indeed all) have been tried, then there isn't really an issue - especially if c) hasn't been tried as the ombudsman is specifically what the community wanted.

If they continue to think that they deserve a free ppt, then it needs to be taken up with the game admin, as the mods have no say whatsoever. Personally, I think this particular situation boils down to this option - especially since the only people who might really have been affected were those whose PPTs expired whilst they could not logon. Nut the situation does DEFINATELY not, in my opinion, call for a global free PPT.

I'm not trying to be difficult, or harsh, but I definately have an issue with the community when they cannot follow the process they demanded in the first place.

Edit: See also: viewtopic.php?f=101&t=128556 for an update - this seems to indicate a solution similar to which I stated above - i.e. that individuals need to take it up with the game admin on a case by case basis.

[TheWay]

I don't know why you brought up the ppt I dont care about the ppt, all i care about is the fact that a mod closed a post because they didnt think the post was relevant which is not their job. Their job is to enforce the rules and that post was breaking no rules. Wether a mod thought the post was stupid or uneeded doesnt matter they should not close posts unless the post has broken a rule or is in the wrong section in which case it should be moved.

I hope this explains things and as of what I want in response is a reasoning on the closing of the original post. I also understand you guys all do the best you can and I am not trying to amke a big deal out of this but my point doesnt seem to be getting through although I hope it has now

Thank you for your time and for your effort past and future in answering my concerns

[Wolf359]

I've already stated that the the post was closed on what the mod believed to be justifiable reasons, in accordance with the forum rules and game tos. I also told you that no other supermods/admins saw fit to reopen it, due to the fact that they took into account the rules and tos, and realised that not everybody was affected - and that still stands.

I will give no other explanation - as there isn't one - and the mods are not actively discussing this issue. The Admins might be discussing it, I don't know, I'm not privy to what they discuss.

As I also said previously - if you're not happy about that explanation, and really, really want to take it further - then look to the ombudsman.

And the PPT is directly relevant as that is what the post is about...

To reiterate - it has never been a guarantee that a free PPT would be awarded - it has been a 'rule of thumb' of Jason's to give a free PPT when the game goes down completely for in excess of 3 hours - this was not the case, and is why the post was locked. Again - as I said previously - the forum rules and game rules/tos are not mutually exclusive - and threads making formal complaints about the game/demanding ppts do not belong in General - but should be directed towards teh game admins via the appropriate method.

People should not automatically expect free PPTs in these situations anyway. If they are going to happen, they will. If they don't, and an individual feels that due to their circumstance they deserved a free PPT or some other form of recompense, then it is their responsibility to contact the game admin directly.

I will not comment further on this (although I cannot speak for my colleagues) - like I said above, if you're not happy with why it was closed, and cannot get an answer from an Admin, then take it to the ombudsman.

[TheWay]

So a mod has the right to close a post for whatever reason he wants?

If this is true then we have a problem.

I want to see the rule that was broken that required the closing of that post. Or a decent explanation and I see no reason why the mods can't answer this without me going to the obudsman. Or are the mods above answering my question in a reasonable manner.

This is clearly moved beyond being patient and is now in the realm of ridiculus. The mod who closed the post was not acting in good will of the members rights to discuss issues they deem fit. I find it concerning that when I ahve asked that this be at least discussed you seem to not care to take the easy route.

I guess I will apeal to the Admins for an answer. This could have been an easy issue, the mod could have simply said I thought I was doing a good thing but I guess there wasnt realy a reason to close the post even though i disagreed with its contents.

The mods should not forget that they serve the community and as such answer to them. Of course you should be treated with respect and thanked for what you do, but at the same time you should be concerned when we are.

[semper]

The post was pointless and ergo spam. The complaint had been made. The topic had been discussed and was inevitably going to degrade in tone. Only Jason himself could give closure to Stu. As such it was appropriate to have it closed, awaiting Jason's answer, at least that way trouble could be avoided.

Not to mention. The lingering example of a possible flaw in the game administration, as any good business mind would know, is not good to have around.

The mods are in their positions to make judgement calls about whether to close a topic or not. They have to place the bar every time they weigh up the fate of a thread or a post. This is never going to be perfect, but thats what we trust them with by allowing them to remain as mods.

So, its quite simple theway. This decision was made no differently to any other rule. Its just the ways in which to question this decision are more obvious.

[TheWay]

okay so the decision was made based off the tone that the post was taking, if that is true I can understand this. However why not just mod the post and warn those who turn the post to the negetive. I was upset that no one put an end to the insults logged at someone voicing their oppinion wether they agreed or not.


As of the second point that it was bad for buisness, I would argue that closing the post seems to suggest there is something to hide when in fact there was nothing wrong with the game nor with the decidion to not grant a ppt. Many a person pointed out that a ppt was not needed and that the request was just plain silly. If anything the post showed a great deal of support for the game and the decision.

I do appreciate the effort into answering this even though you arent a mod you have done a very decent job at making a case. In all I ahve written admin regarding guidlines in these circumstances in the future.

I am not upset nor angry with any person nor mod and I don't care at all about the ppt. I enjoy this game very much and think it is well done. However I thought I should speak up on this issue, and that is all

[semper]

okay so the decision was made based off the tone that the post was taking, if that is true I can understand this. However why not just mod the post and warn those who turn the post to the negetive. I was upset that no one put an end to the insults logged at someone voicing their oppinion wether they agreed or not.

The mods are humans too, lol. Have you see how many hot topics there are out there at the moment? Like I said though, it was not needed to keep it open, inly jason could give closure, and no amount of arguing would change that.


As of the second point that it was bad for buisness, I would argue that closing the post seems to suggest there is something to hide when in fact there was nothing wrong with the game nor with the decidion to not grant a ppt. Many a person pointed out that a ppt was not needed and that the request was just plain silly. If anything the post showed a great deal of support for the game and the decision.

It may seem to suggest it, but I think rather not deleting the post would suggest that is not the case, and it is just to...keep it out of the main focus. If indeed it did show a larger proportion of support, then better to quit whilst you are ahead. I add though, where as I would consider this when addressing such a post, I do not think any of the current mods do, they're not as twisted as me..lol.

I do appreciate the effort into answering this even though you arent a mod you have done a very decent job at making a case. In all I ahve written admin regarding guidlines in these circumstances in the future.

I am actually a sort of mod lol. I do mod the debate section, although there is never anything to really mod in there because people behave and I am a bit lax in there as to the finer details of the rules, as you will know. (mainly because of the lack of idiots in there....) I dont think writing to admin will solve much. Go over the others mods heads, probably not to much of a good idea, NOT to mention I doubt Jason will pursue an issue so trivial as this.

I am not upset nor angry with any person nor mod and I don't care at all about the ppt. I enjoy this game very much and think it is well done. However I thought I should speak up on this issue, and that is all

No problem, everyone around should know, I near enough promote free speech and expression of opinion! (Though I never promise not to eat you for it!)

[Zeratul]

such topics have in the past been left open, and all that has come out of them has been bad feelings and disrespect... that is of course, till Forum has cleared out the issue, and that takes time... and then the chaos on the forums has often lasted much longer...