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Technical Dissertation on Mobile Suits

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:18 pm
by Psi Kiya Trist
this was brought about by a mental review, and revelations regarding Mobile suits provided by Watching the Anime known as Code Geass and various Gundam Series.

the basic Premise of this Dissertation is to outline the various usages and cost effectiveness of a Mobile suit in most areas of combat.

the Basic Mobile Suit
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is in fact highly Impractical at least by modern standards. the multitude of moving parts, and light armor compared to current vehicles makes the Mobile suit outclassed by already contemporary units. The moving parts require lots of extra parts and technical work to keep the whole thing operating at peak efficiency, increasing the maintanance cost, and personnel required per unit compared to our modern Tanks. a conclusive proof of that, is the Variable-Sweep wing of previous generations of jet fighter craft. if it was getting prohibitively expensive to manage aircraft with only two moving parts, how much more expensive would it be to run Mobile Suits with at least 12 moving joints, not counting actual hands? Additionally, in the Modern Era the Mobile Suit would be used in Land engagements. Land Engagements favor two main trees of development in terms of effectiveness.

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The first, is Armor. a heavier, more armored unit is more durable, and thus better in it's "combat survivability" role. Its staying power means the armored unit would be able to endure a siege type situation, at the front lines for most of the battle. now, on a Mobile Suit, Armor is prohibitive, in the fact that more armor, means more powerful engines to move the various joints, increasing the weight, and decreasing the room for armor. the mobile suit would likely be extremely heavy, slow and much like a contemporary tank, but more complex. It would however, have the power systems and load capacity of carrying extremely heavy payloads. a heavy Mech could probably carry as many as 16 differant weapons, with others being still possible as add ons to various parts. Perhaps the best example of this type, is the GN-05 Gundam Virtue(see image) which carries heavy armament, and defensive equipment. This type of Mobile suit would see limited uses in today's field, and that's because the modern tree of land combat is Mobility.

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Mobility, the ability of weapons and personnel to move quickly around the globe, and the battlefield easily. Mobile Suits by default have legs, which take alot more work to get up to a reasonable speed than wheels or tracks do. in current terms, that means that a basic mobile suit would be too slow to account for it's reduced mass and the flexability of the legs for unconventional arenas. the only places i can think of where a mobile suit might be useful, is in a forested or mountainous region where conventional tracked and wheeled vehicles would have trouble moving about. However, the Mobile Suits in Code Geass, the "Knightmares" are perhaps the best solution to this problem, adding wheels to the legs on a folding quadrupedal system. This solves the mobility problem in most areas without compromising the basic premise of a Mobile suit. the suit can then move fast enough in open areas to the best effect. The Mobile suit would be limited to medium/light weaponry due to the need for speed/maneuverability over firepower, but these scale weapons should be easily able to compare to modern tank weapons or even surpass them, depending on configuration/technology. I would consider this type of mobile suit to be the second best kind of planetary mobile suit, which leads to the question: what is the best type of planetary mobile suit? The Variable Fighter.

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the Variable fighter is in fact the most mobile version of Mobile suit available, due to the fact that it transforms into a Jet form, which is both Aerodynamic and uses the engines to best effect. however, carries little to no real armor, but merely external plating. it also would be limited in it's armament due to the weight limits, and folding capability that would be needed to make the suit capable of transforming. this means the Variable fighter will probably at most have 5 weapons. one or two internally mounted Machine guns, for fighter dogfight ability, a specialized rifle, designed to be folded into the fighter, and possibly one or two externally carried missiles types, an exploitable weakness in "conventional" mobile suit combat. The Variable fighter is quite honestly, the most flexible, and most expensive/complicated planetary Mobile Suit. but, there's still one area where Mobile suits can be used, Space.


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Space Mobile suits are actually more effective than most series Starfighters for one main physics reason: the Second Law of Thermodynamics. "Any Action gives an equal and opposite reaction". how does this apply to mobile suits you ask? the same way that Astronauts now are able to move their arms to change direction while in deep space can be applied to Mobile suits on a much larger scale. combined with a proper thruster system and calibrated control operating system, a Mobile Suit could fly circles around most "starfighters" of Sci Fi origins. This is because the mobile suit would have two primary directions it would want to direct its thrust: down, and back. this provides movement up, and forward respectively. Since a normal starfighter's engines would be designed for turns and bursts of thrust forward, the Mobile suit would be more practical due to the ability to both direct thrust forward, up, and change forward and up quickly with a properly balanced control system. Since the Mobile Suits would have their maneuvering thrusters on their limbs, a mobile suit could change the position of it's maneuvering thrusters mid maneuver to perform an entirely differant maneuver than the one it entered, whereas the starfighter would have to stop it's maneuver, and then start a new one. This, combined with the Mobile suits "turreted" arm movement, allows a Mobile suit to fire almost anywhere in it's forward hemisphere, while it's moving this hemisphere almost as fast as a starfighter is capable of flying. Now, there's one major inherent problem with this type of control system, and that's the forces put on the pilot, it'd not be one continious direction of force, but possibly 4 forces on all parts of the body at any one time. Inertia, Centrifugal Force, gravity, Engines, these will all effect the pilot, with varying degrees and at the same time. but if an Elite pilot can withstand these forces, and expertly control the mobile suit, a Mobile suit would be capable of ripping to shreds any "conventional" Strike craft while in space. if a Space Mobile suit was combined with a Variable Fighter from the previous section, and made capable of both entering and leaving the atmosphere, there would be almost no reason for any other main military vehicle to be involved in strike craft level combat. at least, that is my belief.

and so, you can see that with all of the above trees and types of mobile suits, there is alot of variability, but the train of research to get to the more useful types would not be feasible in a combat role, at least, not as they are now.

an area i neglected to cover in this, is the advent of missiles in current combat that would destroy most mobile suits rather quickly, making the expense of making them not worth it anyway.

Re: Technical Dissertation on Mobile Suits

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:08 am
by Solus
Jack wrote:If mechs were to be built today, it would be to fill a psych-ops role. There would be less then 20 built at the most, and they would be sent on missions designed to cause as much unrest as possible in enemy territory.


mechs yeah.... but damn if it EVER (very unlikely i know this) became a mainstream form of warfare then oh me gosh. thats just damn cool. of course mechas could still be used in a peaceful scenario too but not as useful........ still very interesting. (ive been playing a bit of ChromeHounds recently..... :P)

there is a form of mecha that i think is slightly feesible but that'd just be like an exoskeleton of armor, not necessarily huge........ still a long way off tho. LONG way off.

~soul

Re: Technical Dissertation on Mobile Suits

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:25 am
by Solus
well yeah we have the technology, but i wasnt aware of exo's in existance now.....

time and time again we've seen machines developed by japanese companies (i think honda built one) that essentially you strap yourself into and it assists the user with added strength, mainly targeted for the frail and elderly to boost mobility and other things..... most of the time it doesnt actually look too cumbersome like most powerarmor we've seen in sci-fi etc.....

i assume that if this technology were to be developed a bit more and used for applications other than assists to elderly, we might see small exo's with plate armor (relatively heavy but not rediculously heavy) wielding chain fed 7.62x51mm fully automatic rifles with HUD/targeting (see the FAMAS Felin project for the hud concept, if not that then imagine Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter style HUD realtime, possibly with IR sensors for a mounted lazer for other targeting than ironsights....) amongst a myriad of other things able to be carried due to increased strength.........

[spoiler]and before those out there laugh at the idea of a soldier HUD, its entirely possible, i mean have a look at the HMD on the Joint Strike Fighter aka F-35C. HMD = Head Mounted Display.....[/spoiler]

only issue then would be Energy consumption and for all the equipment, where would the charge come from?

very interesting imo....

~soul

Re: Technical Dissertation on Mobile Suits

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:18 am
by Kit-Fox
its much more likely that development in this area will turn out like the battlemech universe (is MechWarrior/Commander type mechs) or we'll end up making personal ones ala warhammer 40K power/terminator armour.

Of course the problem isnt making them or providing them with functionality/armour etc, but powering the suit/mech is the problem. We currently know of no power source that is either self-sustaining (ie nuclear type reactions fusion/fission) or a dispensible one that will power any kind of suit for long enough to make a difference.

Something like stargates naquadah reactors would perhaps be a start but even they can run out, and how long they could power something depends on how big you make it.

And yes we do have exoskeltons already, several have been built in Japan/US/UK and even one in germany if i recall correctly. They almost all only work with the muscle power of theperson inside, enhancing it rather than providing the actual movement totally

Re: Technical Dissertation on Mobile Suits

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:24 am
by semper
thats no dissertation.. pft...

Re: Technical Dissertation on Mobile Suits

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:37 am
by Solus
Kit-Fox wrote:its much more likely that development in this area will turn out like the battlemech universe (is MechWarrior/Commander type mechs) or we'll end up making personal ones ala warhammer 40K power/terminator armour.

Of course the problem isnt making them or providing them with functionality/armour etc, but powering the suit/mech is the problem. We currently know of no power source that is either self-sustaining (ie nuclear type reactions fusion/fission) or a dispensible one that will power any kind of suit for long enough to make a difference.

Something like stargates naquadah reactors would perhaps be a start but even they can run out, and how long they could power something depends on how big you make it.

And yes we do have exoskeltons already, several have been built in Japan/US/UK and even one in germany if i recall correctly. They almost all only work with the muscle power of theperson inside, enhancing it rather than providing the actual movement totally


as far as i see it the mobility will also be an issue for battlemech/mechwarrior type/size mechs, the joints would be damn hard to maintain and undergo a LOT of stress. the things would also be subject to balance, and supposing an enemy used a weapon with enough kinetic energy per blast then something is bound to fall over and how would a mech like the MadCat II or the Vulture(Mechwarrior) be able to stand back up assuming it survives the blast? and with that much energy the recoil on the 'shooter' would be immense too. not to mention that 'limbs' would be relatively easy to destroy......

so as far as im concerned, power source and heavily loaded joints would be a huge issue so the largest mech type thing i'd look into would be a 'landmate' design (Shirow Mesamune's concept, hes a manga artist who did Ghost In The Shell, Intron Depot and Appleseed amongst other things) which in the example in GiTS only stands around 9 foot tall. this way joints can be relatively large compared to the body/chassis and not be a pain to maintain, and less mass is easier to power and less energy needed to move it.

hell, even if electricity was developed by a small-ish generator embedded in the rear of the chassis i think a small 9ft mech or shorter could be feesible. assuming ofc that the armor doesnt leave a gap for the generator or generator fuel...... diesel or petrolium lol.......

but yes strength enhancers is what i was referring to with my previous post, like i said i think Honda looked into strength assists for the frail and or elderly. assuming the same tech was developed and was able to support a decent power supply, armor plating and battle aids (hud and so forth) then a fairly frontline support unit might be feesible. expensive but feesible :P

not intending to rant, sorry :P im a mechanical engineering student so the possibilities of what may be to come really interest me :P (like i havent said that enough lol interest.... interesting.... bleh lol)

~soul

Re: Technical Dissertation on Mobile Suits

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:08 am
by Kit-Fox
well when i said battlemech universe I was thinking more of things like the Atlas or Daishi / Fafnir chassis, which are the large assualt mechs with significant sized joints as well as armour.

Yeah I think the japanese have ones ready to use for situations such as finding survivours after earthquakes, or moving patients in hospitals. Theres even one which could be classed as a mech, as you sit in an egg-shaped coccon which has legs for movement, i believe it was intended for use by disabled people.


As for balence after revieving a hit well it could be done depending on how the mech was standing, weight distribution as well as potential ballast systems & how they work

Re: Technical Dissertation on Mobile Suits

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:20 am
by Solus
Kit-Fox wrote:well when i said battlemech universe I was thinking more of things like the Atlas or Daishi / Fafnir chassis, which are the large assualt mechs with significant sized joints as well as armour.

Yeah I think the japanese have ones ready to use for situations such as finding survivours after earthquakes, or moving patients in hospitals. Theres even one which could be classed as a mech, as you sit in an egg-shaped coccon which has legs for movement, i believe it was intended for use by disabled people.


As for balence after revieving a hit well it could be done depending on how the mech was standing, weight distribution as well as potential ballast systems & how they work


the bigger the joint the bigger the repair cost etc....... smaller frame would be better with a comparatively large joint, say a 11 meter tall mech with a 2 meter joint will mean a lot of maintenance...... versus a 9 ft tall exo with a joint to manage only about 3/4 of a foot? you get my point lol (i think?)

and the falling over thing i'd prefer a large-ish tank which wont depend on ballast or balance in the same way a mechanised form will.....

so yeah when i think mecha i like larger designs cos theyre entertaining (armored core, chromehounds, mechwarrior, all are fun games.) but i think for feesibility, a small mechanised exoskeleton would be better imo.

also considering F=ma (force equals mass times accelleration) we can see that the forces needed to move a larger mass will be more so on a power consumption level a smaller mech is still more feesible, so heh another reason for me to draw closer to a 'landmate' design :P

~soul

Re: Technical Dissertation on Mobile Suits

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:23 am
by Kit-Fox
Yeah the bigger they are the more the cost but the more robust the joints, you could always armour individual points on the joints, which would only work which large joints too.

Meh, i dont do engineering but it seems to make sense to me.

As for ballast well i'm only guessing but I would imagine they'd need something much like humans use arms for balence.

Re: Technical Dissertation on Mobile Suits

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:18 am
by Fear Of The Duck
i have 4 suits, but they're not mobile.. i wear them in order for them to move from place to place.

Re: Technical Dissertation on Mobile Suits

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:40 pm
by Solus
Jack wrote:
Kit-Fox wrote:They almost all only work with the muscle power of theperson inside, enhancing it rather than providing the actual movement totally

That's why they are called exoskeletons and not mechs. :lol:

Power consumption on the larger mechs would not really be a problem as they would likely be large enough to house a miniaturized nuclear reactor.

I still say the number 1 use for modern mechs is in psychological warfare where they would be immensely beneficial.


true that a larger size could house a miniaturised reactor etc...... but its dangerous. in an environment sustaining shock (walking, taking fire, firing recoil etc) this would be quite bad for a reactor....... also theres the weight issue on the joints again.

~soul

Re: Technical Dissertation on Mobile Suits

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:16 pm
by Kit-Fox
Meh mechs arent really my thing I'd love something like a power armour suit tho to help with my mobility issues, one that would hold me up and provide the impetus after recieving a command from the nerves (ie very much like the warhammer 40k ones that plug directly into the spinal cord to tap into the nervous system and commands sent along it)

Re: Technical Dissertation on Mobile Suits

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:13 pm
by Psi Kiya Trist
Powered Armor/Exoskeletons =/= Mobile Suits.

Powered Armor works on the principle of assisted movement.

Mobile Suits operate on purely mechanical movement.

so, you can't really compare the two in this scenario. yes, Powered Armor is more cost effective and viable, but is offtopic.

Mecha as a whole is somewhat offtopic. i almost expanded into the realm of Mecha in the dissertation as there are forms of Mecha that would work in our modern arena of combat, but this was strictly about Mobile Suits.


now, to counter Jack's point, i disagree. you'd need infrastructure to support a mobile suit, thus making "lone ops" type situations practically unheard of due to the fact that while the mission isn't going on, you'd need to service it, and the longer it takes to service, the more chance of martial law forces discovering the hiding spot.

Re: Technical Dissertation on Mobile Suits

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:29 pm
by Kit-Fox
Out of interest would an AT-AT count as a Mech??

Sorry for my part in the power armour off-topic Psi

Re: Technical Dissertation on Mobile Suits

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:38 pm
by Psi Kiya Trist
Kit-Fox wrote:Out of interest would an AT-AT count as a Mech??

Sorry for my part in the power armour off-topic Psi


technically yes, an AT-AT is a Mecha.