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what came first language or rational thought?

this question is puzzling as to think rationaly you need to have words with which to think but to have a language requires rational thought.

so what came first and why?

anyone that can convice me otherwise to my current opinon (which i wont share just yet) wins fabulos mystry prize

SuperSaiyan wrote:ye need not a language to be speakin' mate


animals think, yet I not be hearin' em speak


thought, be comin' first

Animals do speak just not in any human language, not all animals have a sophisticated language system but some do, just coz we don't here it or understand it doesn't make it so. ~Thamuz~

I'm saying Thought as well.

Because language itself is a tool where as the intent is thought. You if have no intent, why use the tool? The more complex the thinking, the more complex the language.

Thought & Self realisation came first but Language came before what would be considered complex thoughts

symbolic thought came first, then a way to share thoughts was created, and then thought using words instead of symbols evolved.

SuperSaiyan wrote:

~Thamuz~ wrote:

SuperSaiyan wrote:ye need not a language to be speakin' mate


animals think, yet I not be hearin' em speak


thought, be comin' first

Animals do speak just not in any human language, not all animals have a sophisticated language system but some do, just coz we don't here it or understand it doesn't make it so. ~Thamuz~

some, but not all matey

twas a mere example

I'd already said that fella, just pointing out the flaws in your example, you need a better example! ~Thamuz~

yes thought came first but was it rational thought while animals may think do they think rationaly can you think rationaly without words and dont say symbols arent language a language doent need to be spoken any more than written to be a real language

Define 'rational thought' please?

As it is considered 'proven' (as much as we can prove anything about our early past) that humans lived in social groups before a fully developed language was developed. To live in a social group indicates that some form of thought must be going on & at these points it is the considered opinion of those who have researched this that the language skills of our ancestors at that point would not have developed much past the point & grunt stage (so bascially not what we would consider to be language today)

Language wasnt really born out of thoughts anyway, at least for humans it is thought that language was born out a requirement to be able to inform others in our 'pack' about threats & other outside stimulii as humans unlike most animals do not have any other way of communicating such infomation (examples are say the tail of a bunny used to convey threat information)

rational thought is the ability to question your surounds and way up the options avalible beyond the instictive flight fight and freeze reactions or hunt and mate instincts to use complex thought to come to an intellectual answer

Rational thought is thinking that is consistent with what is known (or knowable) about the thinker's world. For example, it is rational thought for a deer to identify a human as a predator when the person behaves as other predators behave and then to take evasive action. Rational thought is not limited to thinking that aids short-term survival. Since the contents of a human mind are not limited to facts about the person's world and instead also include goals and values, rational can also include consistency with goals and values.

Language is a term most commonly used to refer to so called "natural languages" — the forms of communication considered peculiar to humankind. By extension the term also refers to the type of human thought process which creates and uses language. Essential to both meanings is the systematic creation, maintenance and use of systems of symbols, each referring to concepts different from themselves.

The most obvious manifestations are spoken languages, such as English or Chinese. For example the English word "language", derived ultimately from lingua, Latin for tongue, and "tongue" is still a word which can be used in English to refer to spoken language. But there are also written languages, and other systems of visual symbols, sign languages and so on.

Although some other animals make use of quite sophisticated communicative systems, and these are sometimes casually referred to as animal language, none of these are known to make use of all of the properties that linguists use to define language in the strict sense.

When discussed more technically as a general phenomenon then, "language" always implies a particular type of human thought which can be present even when communication is not the result, and this way of thinking is also sometimes treated as indistinguishable from language itself.

So you ask what came frist well it depends on the indevial it self you could be rational frist and get language next or learn language and not rational at all in all outcomes this topic has no end you could fight this for ever and not win.

communication> rational thought.

This can be observed throughout nature.

essentially launguage is just a higher form of communication to the grunting and posturing you see in the animal kingdom. 80% percent of what your saying isn't comming out of your mouth. Pouts, smilles, fistpumps can say alot more to someone then a few words can.

SuperSaiyan wrote:
infants

They be havin' no other forms of language, and they be thinkin'

might not be nuclear physics goin' on in there, but it be thought

This was my first thoughts after reading the topic.

Rational thought process is like instinct, its just happens, you are not trained or taught, Language is something that must be learned. Fact is, rational though can exist without language, language can not exist without rational thought.

But now I'm thinking what do you mean by language and rational thought now?

Do you mean language in its complexity or the basic of languages that happens between two animals?

Do you mean rational thought that can state the laws of phsics or the most basic instinctual thought?

chemical communication between single cell organisms came long before the ability to perceive time and emerge a sense of self (acting instead of reacting)