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One of worst society system of last century...

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:28 pm
by Cole
No, this isn't about Germany, China or USSR. For once, let's focus on another country...
South Africa and apartheid. South Africa was firstly discovered (and inhabited) by dutch farmers in XVIIth century. Then, England took over in late XVIIIth century...then Boers wars in late XIXth etc...

I'm not about this colonial past of SA. I'm about the extremly racist kind of society that rose up after WW2 with election of National Party.

This explains current problems of SA and dislike between different ethnies from SA, an hurtful past which doesn't help at all this country to move on to build a better country with every ethny involved in it.


Some of main laws from Apartheid:
The Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act of 1949 prohibited marriage between persons of different races and the Immorality Act of 1950 made sexual relations with a person of a different race a criminal offence.

An act of 1956 formalised racial discrimination in employment, while in 1958 the Promotion of Black Self-Government Act of 1958 entrenched the National Party's policy of nominally independent "homelands" for black people. So-called "self–governing Bantu units" were proposed, which would have devolved administrative powers, with the promise later of autonomy and self-government. The Bantu Investment Corporation Act of 1959 set up a mechanism to transfer capital to the homelands in order to create employment there.

In 1953, the Bantu Education Act crafted a separate system of education for African students and in 1959 separate universities were created for blacks, coloureds and Indians. Existing universities were not permitted to enroll new black students. Legislation of 1967 allowed the government to stop industrial development in "white" cites and redirect such development to the "homelands". The Black Homeland Citizenship Act of 1970 marked a new phase in the Bantustan strategy. It changed the status of the black so that they were no longer citizens of South Africa, but became citizens of one of the ten autonomous territories. The aim was to ensure whites became the demographic majority within South Africa by having all ten Bantustans choose "independence". The Afrikaans Medium Decree of 1974 required the use of Afrikaans and English on an equal basis in high schools outside the homelands.[10]


Women and apartheid

Colonialism and apartheid had a major impact on women since they suffered both racial and gender discrimination. Oppression against African women was different from discrimination against men. Indeed, they had very few or no legal rights, no access to education and no right to own property.[19] Jobs were often hard to find but many African women worked as agricultural or domestic workers though wages were extremely low[20] if not non-existent. Children suffered from diseases caused by malnutrition and sanitary problems, and mortality rates were therefore high. The controlled movement of African workers within the country through the Natives Urban Areas Act of 1923 and the pass-laws, separated family members from one another as men usually worked in urban centers, while women were forced to stay in rural areas. Marriage law and births[21] were also controlled by the government and the pro-apartheid Dutch Reformed Church, who tried to restrict African birth rates.


Apartheid and the world
In April 1960, the UN's conservative stance on apartheid changed following the Sharpeville massacre, and the Security Council for the first time agreed on concerted action against the apartheid regime, demanding an end to racial separation and discrimination. From 1960 the ANC began a campaign of armed struggle of which there would later be a charge of 193 acts of terrorism from 1961-1963, mainly bombings and murders of civilians.

Instead, the South African government then began further suppression, banning the ANC and PAC. In 1961, UN Secretary-General Dag Hammarskjöld stopped over in South Africa and subsequently stated that he had been unable to reach agreement with Prime Minister Verwoerd.

On 6 November 1962, the United Nations General Assembly passed Resolution 1761, condemning South African apartheid policies. In 1966, the UN held the first of many colloquiums on apartheid.

On 7 August 1963 the United Nations Security Council passed Resolution 181 calling for a voluntary arms embargo against South Africa, and in the same year, a Special Committee Against Apartheid was established to encourage and oversee plans of action against the regime. From 1964, the US and Britain discontinued their arms trade with South Africa. In 1977, the voluntary UN arms embargo became mandatory with the passing of United Nations Security Council Resolution 418.

Economic sanctions against South Africa were also frequently debated as an effective way of putting pressure on the apartheid government. In 1962, the UN General Assembly requested that its members sever political, fiscal and transportation ties with South Africa. In 1968, it proposed ending all cultural, educational and sporting connections as well. Economic sanctions, however, were not made mandatory, because of opposition from South Africa's main trading partners.

In 1978 and 1983 the United Nations condemned South Africa at the World Conference Against Racism, and a significant divestment movement started, pressuring investors to disinvest from South African companies or companies that did business with South Africa.

After much debate, by the late 1980s the United States, the United Kingdom, and 23 other nations had passed laws placing various trade sanctions on South Africa.[28] A divestment movement in many countries was similarly widespread, with individual cities and provinces around the world implementing various laws and local regulations forbidding registered corporations under their jurisdiction from doing business with South African firms, factories, or banks.[29]


The anti-apartheid movements in the United States and Europe were gaining support for boycotts against South Africa, for the withdrawal of U.S. firms from South Africa and for the release of Mandela. South Africa was becoming an outlaw in the world community of nations. Investing in South Africa by Americans and others was coming to an end.


Reforms by NP and the end of Apartheid
[spoiler]
Tricameral Parliament

In the early 1980s, Botha's National Party government started to recognise the inevitability of the need to reform apartheid. Early reforms were driven by a combination of internal violence, international condemnation, changes within the National Party's constituency, and changing demographics—whites constituted only 16% of the total population, in comparison to 20% fifty years earlier.

In 1983, a new constitution was passed implementing a so-called Tricameral Parliament, giving coloureds and Indians voting rights and parliamentary representation in separate houses - the House of Assembly (178 members) for whites, the House of Representatives (85 members) for coloureds and the House of Delegates (45 members) for Indians. Each House handled laws pertaining to its racial group's "own affairs", including health, education and other community issues. The first Tricameral elections were largely boycotted by Coloured and Indian voters, amid widespread rioting.

Reforms and contact with the ANC under Botha

(...)The government allowed Mandela more visitors, including visits and interviews by foreigners - to let the world know that Mandela was being treated well.

Black homelands were declared nation-states and pass laws were abolished. Also, black labor unions were legitimized, the government recognized the right of blacks to live in urban areas permanently and gave blacks property rights there. Interest was expressed in rescinding the law against interracial marriage and also rescinding the law against sex between the races, which was under ridicule abroad. The spending for black schools increased, to one-seventh of white children per child - up from on one-sixteenth in 1968. At the same time, attention was given to strengthening the effectiveness of the police apparatus.

In January 1985, Botha addressed the government's House of Assembly and stated that the government was willing to release Mandela on condition that Mandela pledge opposition to acts of violence to further political objectives. Mandela's reply was read in public by one of his allies - his first words distributed publicly since his sentence to prison twenty-one years before. Mandela described violence as the responsibility of the apartheid regime and said that with democracy there would be no need for violence.

Between 1986 and 1988, some petty apartheid laws were repealed. Botha told white South Africans to "adapt or die" and twice he wavered on the eve of what were billed as "rubicon" announcements of substantial reforms, although on both occasions he backed away from substantial changes. Ironically, these reforms served only to trigger intensified political violence through the remainder of the eighties as more communities and political groups across the country joined the resistance movement.

By 1987 the growth of South Africa's economy had dropped to among the lowest rate in the world, and the ban on South African participation in international sporting events was frustrating many whites in South Africa. Examples of African states with black leaders and white minorities existed in Kenya and Zimbabwe. Whispers of South Africa one day having a black President sent more hardline whites into Rightist parties. Mandela was moved to a four-bedroom house of his own, with a swimming pool and shaded by fir trees, on a prison farm just outside Cape Town. (...)

Presidency of F.W. de Klerk

Early in 1989, Botha suffered a stroke; he was prevailed upon to resign on 13 February 1989. He was succeeded as president later that year by F.W. de Klerk. Despite his initial reputation as a conservative, De Klerk moved decisively towards negotiations to end the political stalemate in the country.The Land Act was brought to an end. De Klerk also made his first public commitment to release jailed ANC leader Nelson Mandela, to return to press freedom and to suspend the death penalty. Media restrictions were lifted and political prisoners not guilty of common-law crimes were released.

On 11 February 1990, Nelson Mandela was released from Victor Verster Prison after more than 27 years in prison.

Having been instructed by the UN Security Council to end its long-standing military occupation in South-West Africa /Namibia, and in the face of military defeats and the growing cost of its war of occupation there, South Africa had had to relinquish control of this territory; Namibia officially became an independent state on 21 March 1990.

Negotiations

Apartheid was dismantled in a series of negotiations from 1990 to 1993, culminating in elections in 1994, the first in South Africa with universal suffrage.

From 1990 to 1996 the legal apparatus of apartheid was abolished. In 1990 negotiations were earnestly begun, with two meetings between the government and the ANC. The purpose of the negotiations was to pave the way for talks towards a peaceful transition of power. These meetings were successful in laying down the preconditions for negotiations - despite the considerable tensions still abounding within the country.

(...)

Reforms and negotiations to end apartheid led to a backlash among the right-wing white opposition, leading to the Conservative Party winning a number of by-elections against NP candidates. De Klerk responded by calling a whites-only referendum in March 1992 to decide whether or not negotiations should continue. A 68-percent majority of white voters gave its support, and the victory instilled in De Klerk and the government a lot more confidence, giving the NP a stronger position in negotiations.

Persistent violence added to the tension during the negotiations. Violence was due to impatience for change on the part of those still living under repression, and also the intense rivalry between the Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) and the ANC. (...)

In addition to the continuing "black-on-black" violence, there were a number of attacks on white civilians by the PAC's military wing, the Azanian People's Liberation Army (APLA). The PAC was hoping to strengthen their standing by attracting the support of the angry, impatient youth. (...)

In 1993, de Klerk and Mandela were jointly awarded the Nobel Peace Prize "for their work for the peaceful termination of the apartheid regime, and for laying the foundations for a new democratic South Africa".[42]

Violence persisted right up to the 1994 elections. (...)

1994 election


The election was held on 27 April 1994 and went off peacefully throughout the country as 20,000,000 South Africans cast their votes. There was some difficulty in organizing the voting in rural areas, but, throughout the country, people waited patiently for many hours in order to vote amidst a palpable feeling of goodwill. An extra day was added to give everyone the chance. International observers agreed that the elections were free and fair.

The ANC won 62.65% of the vote,[45][46] less than the 66.7% that would have allowed it to rewrite the constitution. In the new parliament, 252 of its 400 seats went to members of the African National Congress. The NP captured most of the white and coloured votes and became the official opposition party. (...)

The anniversary of the elections, 27 April, is celebrated as a public holiday in South Africa known as Freedom Day.
[/spoiler]


I'm talking about this as there was elections in SA last month. And to remember that unacceptable kind of governements/laws didn't only rise in far-right and communist countries..and that those governements have often terrible outcomes for unity of concerned countries.

It's also to know people from forum opinion regarding this, SA people and foreigners'.

Re: One of worst society system of last century...

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:39 pm
by Juliette
Out of place.
Moved.

Re: One of worst society system of last century...

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:40 pm
by Cole
And I was wondering whether it was this&that or discussion topic.. :P
Looks like I made wrong choice, anyway, back on topic! :)

Re: One of worst society system of last century...

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:58 pm
by Colton
It baffles me that many people in the world even now, in the 21st century are still so closed-minded as to shun people by what they look like, or where they come from, etc.. :|

Re: One of worst society system of last century...

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:09 pm
by Juliette
You'll have to admit that while the concept of 'race' is an imperfect tool for the classification of humans, outward appearance is definitely and by far the easiest distinguishing property of a human being. Value has nothing to do with that.
You'll also have to admit that a generic Asian person (not an existing individual) differs as much from a generic African or Caucasian person as does a chihuahua differ from a danish dog or a wolf. All capable of reproduction, same species, but with various generic commonalities, to each their own. Is that 'race'? Does that have any value beyond a small and subtle insight in someone's ancestral, geographical history? Whether their ancestors crossed the Bering Strait or settled in the European forests, or dwelled in the deserts of Arabia.. it does not change the intrinsic value of a human being.


What does change the value of a human being is the sum of its deficiencies. Much as the sum of our qualities is considered our merit in life, our deficiencies balance that. Most people score average. Those that excel have lately been oppressed extremely, and will receive their dues in time. The rest will soon learn their place.

It is true that while we had a good thing going, getting diseases out of this world and all.. okay, baby steps, but the eradication of polio and smallpox was awesome. Until it came to light that some groups had intentionally stayed out of the general health improvement programs based on moral objections. Ah well, I guess it is the nature of man to ultimately destroy themselves.

Genetic defects would be so easy to prevent.. if people would open their minds to the -to an outsider- harsh methods it requires. This world stimulates the survival, or rather, the existence -for one can hardly call permanent IC-dwelling 'life'- of diseases, errors, risks and pandemics.
The idiocy of that is about as big as the one guiding apartheid.


And people wonder why we die. Pah.

So really. Apartheid is wrong. But it is wrong for all the wrong reasons. This world is wrong. Apartheid fits right with the rest of the lunatics.

Re: One of worst society system of last century...

Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 12:57 am
by Mister Sandman
South Africa isnt the worst society of the last century. And frankly that title is offensive, I am not a South African, and I wont defend South Africa.


However, more or less South Africa was once a great country, until a black rapist president bribed his way to the top to screw over the once working country. You know who i am talking about. He has been described to me as Hitler.


Move over to the fact, that there are far worse countries in the world.

Re: One of worst society system of last century...

Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 1:01 am
by Cole
Universe wrote:You'll have to admit that while the concept of 'race' is an imperfect tool for the classification of humans, outward appearance is definitely and by far the easiest distinguishing property of a human being. Value has nothing to do with that.
You'll also have to admit that a generic Asian person (not an existing individual) differs as much from a generic African or Caucasian person as does a chihuahua differ from a danish dog or a wolf. All capable of reproduction, same species, but with various generic commonalities, to each their own. Is that 'race'? Does that have any value beyond a small and subtle insight in someone's ancestral, geographical history? Whether their ancestors crossed the Bering Strait or settled in the European forests, or dwelled in the deserts of Arabia.. it does not change the intrinsic value of a human being.


What does change the value of a human being is the sum of its deficiencies. Much as the sum of our qualities is considered our merit in life, our deficiencies balance that. Most people score average. Those that excel have lately been oppressed extremely, and will receive their dues in time. The rest will soon learn their place.

It is true that while we had a good thing going, getting diseases out of this world and all.. okay, baby steps, but the eradication of polio and smallpox was awesome. Until it came to light that some groups had intentionally stayed out of the general health improvement programs based on moral objections. Ah well, I guess it is the nature of man to ultimately destroy themselves.

Genetic defects would be so easy to prevent.. if people would open their minds to the -to an outsider- harsh methods it requires. This world stimulates the survival, or rather, the existence -for one can hardly call permanent IC-dwelling 'life'- of diseases, errors, risks and pandemics.
The idiocy of that is about as big as the one guiding apartheid.


And people wonder why we die. Pah.

So really. Apartheid is wrong. But it is wrong for all the wrong reasons. This world is wrong. Apartheid fits right with the rest of the lunatics.


Hmmm...as long as some countries are "manipulated" by their ancestral beliefs, there will not be any kind of stop or regulation implemented in their countries (like we in Europe sort of have, and bit differently also, in China). People and abortion for example. For which reasons allow it or not? Same for euthanasia, is it right, or wrong to do it? Difference from apartheid is, there, we talk about not already yet born people, or people who have almost no chance of being healthy again. In apartheid, it was based on stupidity, race supremacy, which has no funding, at all. (even tho they denied it, but well, one can deny many things lol)


What differs between animals and humans? Animals, in each races, have very specific caracteristics, that rarely differs between one and another animal from same race. For humans, all people are different (aside of twins...). We are all different, but also all the same. That's why it's been found out that there is only one race in humanity. It's already a step to admit this, and not being blocked with our own ancestral beliefs. That there are many races around, which belief caused apartheid, holocaust, armenian genocide, etc...


As for "harsh methods", I see eugenics and stuff like that. Translated to, humans acting like God (hmmm don't monotheist religions state that there is only ONE God according to them? That would be quite against religion to act like this, requiring atheist people to do it). In nazis era, only arians were worth living for their genetic/physical specifications etc...and we all know where it led. Extermination of jews. Most famous example of eugenics. So NO, people -fortunately, and hopefully-, learnt from past mistakes such as this one. Someone doing eugenics now would be as stupid, -if not more-, than ones who decided to do apartheid. Because, we *all* know that it wouldn't be only about preventing all illnesses in advance, much worse things would be executed, because of hidden agendas of executers. When you think you are God, you always end by doing horrible things by power abuse. Naive to think it wouldn't happen.

Eugenics theories in history *always* came from people who are sooo full of themselves and their kind that they think they are oh soo good that rest is oh sooo bad it doesn't deserve to live. Which doesn't make them -at all- be right..quite the opposite even. NONE of them did it for purpose of saving humanity from genetical diseases...

If we didn't know what were the outcomes of such ideas, things would be different, but we faced it already, so let's not do same mistakes again...we are all intelligent people in this forum section, we should know consequences of acts aren't always same as for what they were made for..So there's *no* reason in this world for me to "open my mind" to that. :) We seen what segregation (apartheid, USA segregation), and eugenics (nazism, experiences by Japan during WW2, apartheid again with "interracial" relationships forbidden...) did, so we should learn lessons coming from those examples. :)

I defy people thinking those theories to actually face people who fit criterias of "not deserving to live/reproduce", to explain them your theory, and tell them why they should die or not have children at all. You see, that would be a *very* nice experience.. :) Even more if it was a person you knew personally. Let's not forget "problems" sometimes also concern our social circle.

Mister Sandman wrote:South Africa isnt the worst society of the last century. And frankly that title is offensive, I am not a South African, and I wont defend South Africa.


However, more or less South Africa was once a great country, until a black rapist president bribed his way to the top to screw over the once working country. You know who i am talking about. He has been described to me as Hitler.


Move over to the fact, that there are far worse countries in the world.

And I was waiting to see that...it came later as I expected to, but it came nonetheless. Offensive? Not at all! Why would Germany etc always be labelled as such for their specific horrible eras and not SA? If you noticed, I qualified the apartheid era as horrible society...did a brief history sum up, but mentioned I wasn't about it. Afterall, first dutch farmers were much tolerant -from what I've heard-, than apartheid people. And it was... 3 centuries before. Talk about regression from people in second part of XXth century!
As for what happens now, I don't support what happens at all, but well, sadly that was the expected outcome of apartheid. If they weren't so harsh to black people, there wouldn't have been so much hate created on last decades. Also, it's closer than slavery issues, which are much older than this one. This -might- explain that..

Re: One of worst society system of last century...

Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 3:08 am
by [KMA]Avenger
personally, i think the present Chinese system is far worse. but having said that, any system of oppression is evil and in this day and age its almost unthinkable, unbelievable and mind-numbingly baffling why we simply cant live in harmony with our fellow man, and why our leaders feel the need to oppress us at every turn :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?

people say that religion has caused more wars and death than anything else, but how much of that blame rests on us the common man...we are the ones at the end of the day who put up with oppression and evil regimes?!?!

its easy to point fingers and say apartheid or Nazi's or communists are evil, but those in such oppressive regimes are few, and we the people are many, so we share equal blame...imho of course.

Re: One of worst society system of last century...

Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 3:58 am
by Deaths_Rider
humans are inherently "evil" the only three things every person has in common is love fear and rebellion.

the answer build a thunderdome

Re: One of worst society system of last century...

Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 4:33 am
by Mister Sandman
[KMA]Avenger wrote:personally, i think the present Chinese system is far worse. but having said that, any system of oppression is evil and in this day and age its almost unthinkable, unbelievable and mind-numbingly baffling why we simply cant live in harmony with our fellow man, and why our leaders feel the need to oppress us at every turn :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?

people say that religion has caused more wars and death than anything else, but how much of that blame rests on us the common man...we are the ones at the end of the day who put up with oppression and evil regimes?!?!

its easy to point fingers and say apartheid or Nazi's or communists are evil, but those in such oppressive regimes are few, and we the people are many, so we share equal blame...imho of course.

1. Chinese are not communist, they are totalitarianist. The system of government is no more evil than the Republic of the USA. Just a different view point.

2. Religion, is any belief, and since beliefs conflict..... duh... (one cannot be without a religion)

3. Look at another POV.

Re: One of worst society system of last century...

Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 5:37 am
by Kit-Fox
Of course you can be without a religion, believing or following a religion is not a requirement for life you know. Its a choice and its one that an ever increasing number of people are chosing not to take in, hence they have no religion.

Re: One of worst society system of last century...

Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 5:49 am
by [KMA]Avenger
Mister Sandman wrote:1. Chinese are not communist, they are totalitarianist. The system of government is no more evil than the Republic of the USA. Just a different view point.

2. Religion, is any belief, and since beliefs conflict..... duh... (one cannot be without a religion)

3. Look at another POV.


1, what's the difference, oppression is still oppression, regardless of the name its given.

2, if i believe in little green men from Mars, does that count as a religion?

3, i always look at different points of view and if i find mine to be lacking then i change it accordingly, but where truth and sensible discussion is involved...i have no ego :-)

Re: One of worst society system of last century...

Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 5:59 am
by [BoT] Jason
Mister Sandman wrote:However, more or less South Africa was once a great country, until a black rapist president bribed his way to the top to screw over the once working country. You know who i am talking about. He has been described to me as Hitler.


Are you sure your not South African? :lol:

well i am. aprtheid as a whole was the fear of the Zulu\"Blacks" by the boers. (boer means farmer in afrikaans).They put those laws in place to control the Zulus

well i can this act has had a majour impact on the community of SA, there is still hate between the races. we will never get rid of the hate. But apartheid was not fully backed by all the Europiens in the country. but now the fact that the power has swopped sides and laws like BEE are put in place mean nothing??

[spoiler]BEE is black economic empowerment. it is the act of giving backs an advantage to pay for the "damages of the Past". example. 2 gradutes apply for the same job . 1 has straight 80's for everything the other has just passed his exams by 2%. the 1 with 80 is white the other white. the black student would get the job[/spoiler]

now my opinion is that our new government (who has been around for 15 years in april) is just sowly reversing what the past has done

thats just the opinion of a boy iving in this Beautiful nation

Pimp D

Re: One of worst society system of last century...

Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 6:14 am
by Cole
[KMA]Avenger wrote:personally, i think the present Chinese system is far worse. but having said that, any system of oppression is evil and in this day and age its almost unthinkable, unbelievable and mind-numbingly baffling why we simply cant live in harmony with our fellow man, and why our leaders feel the need to oppress us at every turn :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?

people say that religion has caused more wars and death than anything else, but how much of that blame rests on us the common man...we are the ones at the end of the day who put up with oppression and evil regimes?!?!

its easy to point fingers and say apartheid or Nazi's or communists are evil, but those in such oppressive regimes are few, and we the people are many, so we share equal blame...imho of course.

If I was president of the world, first action I would do would be limitate *every* family in the world to not have more than 2 children (well, in upcoming birth of course, one cannot interfer with already made up families before) or they would pay a tax for excess children until he/she is 18 (or 21)! :-D
Population is over excessive, and people doing it like rabbits aren't helping. When we will be over 9 bil people I'm 99% sure there will be complaints, and THEN, people like me would tell them: "We told you so".

I am ALL in favour of being careful and not having more than 1 or 2 children.
And rest of post, erm lol...

Re: One of worst society system of last century...

Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 7:07 am
by [KMA]Avenger
so you are in favour of the Chinese system where people go to prison for having to many kids? :?