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Posted: **Wed May 27, 2009 11:52 am**

this is a light discussion about (obviously

) the inconsistency's of the star wars universe.

what prompted me to make a discussion about Star Wars was an interview of George Lucas i saw recently. in the interview Lucas states that after the success of A New Hope (episode 4) allot of books and comics started to appear and there was discrepancy's between the various story's and formats. to put a stop to the inconsistency and pollution of the Star Wars time-line, Lucas laid down the time-line and anyone writing a Star Wars Story had to adhere to this Time-line.

i've read many of the Star Wars books and in these books we have some major events, such as:

1, senator Palpatine is a nobody-senator, and a group of cloners clone this nobody senator (for reasons i forget), but since cloning isn't perfected the feedback of the force from the original Palpatine to the clone Palpatine causes the clone to go mad, resulting in the clone's utter madness and superior use of the dark side of the force.

2, the clone Palpatine then kills the original and assumes his position and status within the senate and starts to corrupt it from within.

3, the clone wars were a result of the republics troops being cloned NOT because of some separatist movement designed to weaken the republic. the cloned troops were utterly mad and went on a rampage across the galaxy destroying everything in sight. the troops could have been cloned for this specific reason, i cant remember

4, in order to defeat the clones, the empire had to unite with the old republican forces.

5, as a result of the loss of the death star, emperor Palpatine cut off Darth Vader's hand...Vader never lost his hand to some sith lord named Count Dooku!

6, Ben Kenobi was trained by Yoda and there was never any mention of Qui Gon Jinn, there was however, a powerful Jedi by the name of Mace Windu but he was not involved in kenobi's jJedi training.

7, Darth Vader was with the emperor from nearly the beginning of his rise to power and after the clone wars ended Vader helped the emperor hunt down and kill the Jedi Knights who by now had been driven into hiding. to find the Jedi they used a device which measured the strength of the force within an individual, by this means, they found most of the Jedi.

8, the engineer responsible for the design and building of the death star was called Bevel Lemelisk. The Death Star was the brainchild of Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin and Lemelisk was charged with streamlining Tarkin's idea and building the super weapon.

9, the emperor HATED aliens, so why Lucas chose to surround chancellor Palpatine with them is another mystery.

10, 3po's memory was wiped so there's no way he could remember ever meeting Ben Kenobi, was Ben Kenobi's and R2's mind also wiped??

11, Anakin Skywalker is a descendant of another Jedi Knight by the name of Nomi Sunrider who was involved in the first great Sith War....

i could go on and on but i think those are enough lol, anyway's, i am arguing that Lucas made and then destroyed one the greatest story's ever put on celluloid, the prequals are only fit for the bin...

agree or disagree???

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2009 6:41 pm**

I'm afraid i absolutely love the prequels. I can't tell you how much. Not quite as much as the originals - my leaderboard goes something like this:

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Attack of The Clones
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. Phantom Menace
6. Return of the Jedi

In my opinion, the prequels fixed what most of us old fans were unaware was broken with Return of The Jedi. It was a wet squib when you stand it up against the "other" Fett story available to view. I'm sorry. Obi Wan vs. Jango was outstanding and there was no excuse (again in my opinion) for not expanding on the bounter hunter aspect of Empire and Return.

Admittedly, your inconsistencies are correct and some of them often come up in conversations i have in regards cannon and expanded. I don't really see the point in having to have a distinction? It's very easy to overlook a couple of these or imagine sweet ways in which they could work.

You have to imagine the scope of the fanfiction appearing. It was phenominal. Phantom Menace got us off to something of a dodgy start according to it's detractors but i see it as novel or at the very least calculated cleverness. He had to relaunch it for the new generation and he had to do it in a clandestine manner - he had undertaken to visualise one of the most horrific tales ever told in popular science fiction, the betrayal of anakin skywalker and the slaughter of the jedi order. It doesn't matter what you call them ie. Younglings, let's face it guys - Vader sliced children to pieces. On a 12 rated film no less.

10, 3po's memory was wiped so there's no way he could remember ever meeting Ben Kenobi, was Ben Kenobi's and R2's mind also wiped??

I always love answering this one. It was Leia who programmed Artoo to seek out General Kenobi, it was most likely she who programmed the ownership as a failsafe. Ben told no lie, only another half truth lol. He didn't own Artoo, Artoo was Anakin's. The last droid owned by Kenobi was R4. So, the words, "I don't remember ever owning a droid" are a definate Kenobi style "from a certain point of view" answer. The reason he adopted this curious behaviour would likely be apprehension, through knowing there was likely only two ways the droid could have been sent to him. One of the two other Skywalkers - Leia or Anakin. Of course, either way he knew on first sight it was time to face his destiny.

I want my daughter's middle name to be Nomi, after Nomi Sunrider.

Watch the final battle on Mustafar, marvel at it's elegance, watch as Kenobi travels almost all the way to the dark side and has to face his failure (when his eyes turn black). This is why he went into exile, he failed, he failed his padawan and he failed the council. In deeper terms, how did he fail his padawan? Well, he could have killed him. Now tell me that Revenge of the Sith is not a masterpiece! You just have to feel what is not immediately contextually apparent.

If i have a son his middle name will be "Jastor"

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2009 7:58 pm**

SuperSaiyan wrote:*happily awaits semper*

yup

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2009 11:20 pm**

sorry Goo, i have to disagree with your statement that "things were Fixed" with regards to ROTJ, if anything, Lucas tried to fix something that was not broken. the bounty hunter aspect would have been good to have expanded on in the original trilogy however, that is only a sub-plot and does not contribute to the story as a whole.

with regards to R2, r2's mind has never been wiped which makes him rather eccentric, but the fact still remains that in the prequels (and now in the cartoon series) R2 knows Kenobi and Kenobi also knows R2...so why no mention of ever having met R2 in the originals? because neither 3po nor R2 were in the original back-story which Lucas had written. just like Jar Jar Binks (the single worst character ever created...a real story-killer, he makes me sick!!! :smt078

) they were written in to the new prequels to add something that was missing in the new films, something which was in the originals and was done in a more natural way. in the new films its as if Lucas was forcing some humour into the story because they were so lame.

btw, i forgot to mention the fact that the emperors disfigurement was due to his utter madness, his disfigurement is the manifestation of the dark side of the force on his physical body.

and there is no way Palpatine could have hidden his ability with the force, any Jedi worth his salt would have sensed the dark side in him when ever they were in proximity to each other, and 2 Jedi of Yoda's and Windu's ability would have sensed the dark side even further away than that.

and also,in ROTJ when asked by Luke if she knew her parents, Leia says she remembers her mother being sad...i think it would have been better for Lucas to have sat down and watched his original master works before writing the new films

i saw A New Hope when i was 9 years old and will NEVER forget the experience. i grew up watching those 3 films and i've seen them more times than i can keep count of.
i remember coming out of the Odeon Cinema on the Holloway Road Islington London after just having seen Star Wars and i couldn't wait to get back in and see it again, when i saw The Phantom Menace, i couldn't wait to get out of the cinema and literally forced myself to go see Attack of the Clones and didn't even bother going to see ROTS. i knew after seeing TPM that there was no way Lucas could recover the story and keep it faithful to the original 3

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2009 1:56 am**

I feel it's a shame that you are disappointed but i also feel a bit miffed that someone of such clear star wars passion simply junps on the much loved "i hate jar jar binks" bandwagon. Personally, i thought Jar Jar was hilarious. The podrace was superb, as was the fight sequence, as was getting to see some jedi capabilities only previously seen in computer games - like where Qui Gon uses confuse droid in the turbo lift. If you failed to see RotS anywhere other than IMAX i'm afraid you should feel ultimately cheated. Still, this conversation is steering away from consistency and is more focused on debasing George Lucas' decision to write prequels. I guess that, equally, you can't make me think differently as i live breathe and sleep star wars, and i can't make you think differently as you feel let down in some way. You are certainly not alone ha ha. I get this all the time over at force.net and starwars official!! If you saw a new hope at the cinema you are clearly older than me and luckier in that respect however i saw all three originals back to back at the odeon on release of RotJ so i'm not altogether at a loss. Did you know, or realise, that on seeing a new hope in the cinema you were among the first people in existence to hear "laserfire"?

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2009 2:27 am**

my dear Goo, you are correct, i do feel cheated, for the simple reason that the inconsistency's between the prequels and the originals are to numerous and to blatant to be ignored .
just so we have some context here, if i had never seen the originals i would think the prequels are superb, but sadly, i cannot think of them as anything but absolute rubbish

i never jumped on the hate Jar Jar bandwagon, i was disgusted with the character of Jar Jar after less than 2 mins of seeing him on the screen.

the podrace and the Jedi fight scenes were excellent but they cannot cancel out the inconsistency's and ultimately, its those inconsistency's which have ruined the experience, and Star Wars is an experience.

i also saw ROTJ at the dominion theatre in the west end, to the best of my knowledge, its the only film to have been shown there in the past 30 years.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2009 9:20 am**

It's a shame, like i say. The star wars camp was split by the prequels. Where before was unity and peace now exists a rift between two warring factions lol. Those who feel cheated and outdone by the prequels and those, like myself, who love them dearly. There's nothing wrong with either of us, i totally understand how you feel sadly, it's very difficult from your side of the argument to empathise with my side - i don't care about inconsistencies, it simply enhances my experience to think of ways to connect it together in my own mind (the whole Jaster Mareel issue is a burning one for instance). I, above all else however, don't care about the inconsistencies because Ewan McGregor's portrayal of Obi Wan Kenobi is one of the single most enjoyable things i've ever seen on film. For me it ranks right up with the classics ie Harvey Keitel as "Captain Benson" in Saturn 3, Jeff Morrow as "Exeter" in This Island Earth, and Michael Rennie as the original "Klaatu" (although i thoroughly enjoyed Tom Cruise's homage). No, i'm sorry, i'm unshiftable in this lol, watching Ewan as Obi was by far the most entertaining Sci Fi jaunt i'd had since watching Bernard Bresslaw as "Rell" in Krull

...and yes, i cried when he got squashed by the door and it gave me nightmares, i still to this day turn away when i watch it. So what

I still cry noooo when qui gon is brutally stabbed through the chest, too.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2009 12:32 pm**

my dear Goo, i don't have a problem with the cast, but the fact still remains that everyone saw the original 3 and were left with questions and a VERY small insight to the back story. once ROTJ had been seen by all loyal Star Wars fans they were all united in their demand for the back story to be made and we had to wait over 20 years to finally have the whole picture and in this you have to admit, Lucas failed to stay true to the original back story he had penned...

remember, Lucas started writing a story, that story became to large and he cut it in to 3 acts, each act was still to big and he had to cut those acts into 3 as well. the original story is 9 episodes long, so what happened to the original back story? my guess is that with the advancements in technology he decided to make each story more of a visual feast, in that respect he succeeded, but at what cost?

the cost in my opinion was to high, the re-write of the back story and hence, all the inconsistency's!

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2009 2:01 pm**

Come now good Sir, you will next be complaining that Vader's name should be Starkiller and that Han Solo should have been blue skinned

Did you know, incidentally, the original story was called A Wind To Shake The Stars and i have an original script from the original radio broadcast bearing that name. I'm not sure how much it is worth but i know they are a rare commodity.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:AotS-TSW.jpg
The Adventures of Luke Starkiller Episode 1: A Wind To Shake The Stars

This was the second draft and with respect, it is titled episode 1.

Original Opening Crawl
"The REPUBLIC GALACTICA is dead.
Ruthless trader barons, banking clan, of course
driven by greed and the
lust for power, have replaced
enlightenment with oppression,
and "rule by the people"
with the FIRST GALACTIC EMPIRE.

Until the tragic Holy Rebellion of "06", "Order 06" lol
the respected JEDI BENDU Mace Windu, rofl OF ASHLA
were the most powerful warriors
in the Universe.
For a hundred thousand years,
generations of Jedi Bendu knights
learned the ways of the mysterious
FORCE OF OTHERS existentialist suggestion, and acted as the
guardians of peace and justice or light side of the Force?
in the REPUBLIC. Now these legendary
warriors are all but extinct.
One by one they have been hunted down
and destroyed by a ferocious
rival sect of mercenary warriors:
THE BLACK KNIGHTS OF THE SITH. note the word mercenary, likely split the idea into The Sith and Black Sun Empire? Essentially, Keepers of the Dark Side and their Denisons, essentially..the darths

It is a period of civil wars.
The EMPIRE is crumbling into
lawless barbarism throughout
the million worlds of the galaxy.
From the celestial equator to
the farthest reaches of the GREAT RIFT,
seventy small solar systems have
united in a common war against
the tyranny of the Empire.
Under the command of a mighty
Jedi warrior known as THE STARKILLER,
the REBEL ALLIANCE has won a crushing
victory over the deadly Imperial Star Fleet.
The Empire knows that one more such defeat
will bring a thousand more solar systems
into the rebellion, and Imperial control
of the Outlands could be lost forever..."

Interesting, no? Here's some more. You LOVE it

Opening Scene
Within the damaged Rebel ship were two droids, Threepio and Artwo. The smaller droid led his counterpart toward a corridor. A barrage from one of the Stardestroyers blew a hole in the ship, and Threepio was covered in debris. The Captain, Deak Starkiller (brother of Annikin Starkiller, son of Kane Starkiller a Jedi Cyborg who could no longer train in the Force due to his cyborg body - only his head and right arm were "human"; totally a blueprint for Vader), an Aquillian Ranger (possibly became aqualish?) and a Jedi, arrived and checked on the hapless robots. He informed his officers that to expect a boarding party, and that a Sith knight was with them. Deak sensed him in the Force.

The sith knight was called Bink Valor, although in the first draft i believe Bink Valor was Deak's name. Confusing, to say the least...unless you think laterally, in which case you would assume that he then developed the story to have Kane try kill his son (Deak), thus setting into motion the philosophical debate on good vs evil we all came to love. So, The father attempts to kill the son completing his fall to the dark side. The brother (Annikin Starkiller) cannot save his brother Kane and he falls to the darkside too through having his head and right arm transferred to a cyborg body. Also, this rendered Deak unable to train Annikin to defeat their father Kane and so instructed a "General Kenobi" to train him in his stead. The secret that Kane had suffered this almost fatal wounding at the hands of his sith father was kept secret from his sister, the senator for reasons unknown but it was likely to hide his somewhat grotesque nature (he being essentially a Cyborg, turning him to the dark side or "filling him with anger and hatred slowly consuming him in the Dark Side of the Force", as the concept was developed).

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/starw ... kvader.jpg

This is Deak Starkiller vs Bink Valor or Darth Vader or Kane Starkiller lol.

I hear alot of folk citing Bink Valor being the origins of Jar Jar Binks but...i'm not entirely sure about that. The name is maybe but certainly not the character applied that name. He had more in common with Vader - having tried to destroy his own son.

I could go on all night

errr...who's not sticking to the storyline?

Hope you enjoyed!

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2009 3:19 pm**

GhostyGoo wrote:Original Opening Crawl
"The REPUBLIC GALACTICA is dead.
Ruthless trader barons, lern2foundation
driven by greed and the
lust for power, have replaced
enlightenment with oppression,
and "rule by the people"
with the FIRST GALACTIC EMPIRE

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2009 3:37 pm**

Apadamek wrote:
GhostyGoo wrote:Original Opening Crawl
"The REPUBLIC GALACTICA is dead.
Ruthless trader barons, lern2foundation
driven by greed and the
lust for power, have replaced
enlightenment with oppression,
and "rule by the people"
with the FIRST GALACTIC EMPIRE

Spoons?

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2009 10:24 pm**

GhostyGoo wrote:It's a shame, like i say. The star wars camp was split by the prequels. Where before was unity and peace now exists a rift between two warring factions lol. Those who feel cheated and outdone by the prequels and those, like myself, who love them dearly. There's nothing wrong with either of us, i totally understand how you feel sadly, it's very difficult from your side of the argument to empathise with my side - i don't care about inconsistencies, it simply enhances my experience to think of ways to connect it together in my own mind (the whole Jaster Mareel issue is a burning one for instance). I, above all else however, don't care about the inconsistencies because Ewan McGregor's portrayal of Obi Wan Kenobi is one of the single most enjoyable things i've ever seen on film. For me it ranks right up with the classics ie Harvey Keitel as "Captain Benson" in Saturn 3, Jeff Morrow as "Exeter" in This Island Earth, and Michael Rennie as the original "Klaatu" (although i thoroughly enjoyed Tom Cruise's homage). No, i'm sorry, i'm unshiftable in this lol, watching Ewan as Obi was by far the most entertaining Sci Fi jaunt i'd had since watching Bernard Bresslaw as "Rell" in Krull ...and yes, i cried when he got squashed by the door and it gave me nightmares, i still to this day turn away when i watch it. So what I still cry noooo when qui gon is brutally stabbed through the chest, too.

The prequels were no better or no worse than any of the original trilogy. George Lucas has said on several occasions, a movie is never finished, just abandoned. Just take them for what they are.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2009 1:19 am**

Yes Sir, right Sir, Sorry Sirr. I shan't let my imagination run away with me again, i have no idea what i was thinking.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2009 3:41 am**

LMAO

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2009 1:15 pm**

[KMA]Avenger wrote:this is a light discussion about (obviously ) the inconsistency's of the star wars universe.

what prompted me to make a discussion about Star Wars was an interview of George Lucas i saw recently. in the interview Lucas states that after the success of A New Hope (episode 4) allot of books and comics started to appear and there was discrepancy's between the various story's and formats. to put a stop to the inconsistency and pollution of the Star Wars time-line, Lucas laid down the time-line and anyone writing a Star Wars Story had to adhere to this Time-line.

Ok firstly.. there are a lot of fake GL interviews going around. There was on Empire magazine about 11 months ago where he stated that the ONLY canon information we have are from the KOTOR games, the BF games, the films and the two TV series. All the comic books, the books and other video games are NOT canon. He has just been manopolising from the money it has all generated and subsequently can actually create his own 'canon' story line and make MORE money. very smart if you ask me!

i've read many of the Star Wars books and in these books we have some major events, such as:

1, senator Palpatine is a nobody-senator, and a group of cloners clone this nobody senator (for reasons i forget), but since cloning isn't perfected the feedback of the force from the original Palpatine to the clone Palpatine causes the clone to go mad, resulting in the clone's utter madness and superior use of the dark side of the force.
Not true

2, the clone Palpatine then kills the original and assumes his position and status within the senate and starts to corrupt it from within.
Palpatine was trained by Plaguise as a sith.. he was not a clone, and was close to 120 years old when he died in ROTJ.

3, the clone wars were a result of the republics troops being cloned NOT because of some separatist movement designed to weaken the republic. the cloned troops were utterly mad and went on a rampage across the galaxy destroying everything in sight. the troops could have been cloned for this specific reason, i cant remember
Bollocks. The clone wars were made so Palpatine could manipulate the senate into giving him more executive powers so he could LEGALLY and unchallenged win them over and re-organise the republic into the Empire

4, in order to defeat the clones, the empire had to unite with the old republican forces. They were the same SIDE you dime witt!

5, as a result of the loss of the death star, emperor Palpatine cut off Darth Vader's hand...Vader never lost his hand to some sith lord named Count Dooku! And Obi Wan Kenobi.. this is also false information!

6, Ben Kenobi was trained by Yoda and there was never any mention of Qui Gon Jinn, there was however, a powerful Jedi by the name of Mace Windu but he was not involved in kenobi's jJedi training. Windu was not mentioned in the original trilogy and the character was created solely for the prequels. Yoda DID originally train Kenobi in the basics of the force, as he did ALL younglings on Courscant.

7, Darth Vader was with the emperor from nearly the beginning of his rise to power and after the clone wars ended Vader helped the emperor hunt down and kill the Jedi Knights who by now had been driven into hiding. to find the Jedi they used a device which measured the strength of the force within an individual, by this means, they found most of the Jedi. That's not true.. Vader, like Palpatine and Palpatines force sensitive agents could sense other force users using the force.. not to mention they used other sources and leads the empire was MASSIVE.

8, the engineer responsible for the design and building of the death star was called Bevel Lemelisk. The Death Star was the brainchild of Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin and Lemelisk was charged with streamlining Tarkin's idea and building the super weapon. Not true.. the Death Star was the brain child of the seperatist leaders. It's design according to NON-canon sources was altered by the two mentioned above and Palpatine himself.. amongst numerous others.. but there is no canon information designating WHO actually designed it and who altered it for imperial use. What we do know is that Tarkin, as the grand moff was put in charge of it's development and command when completed.

9, the emperor HATED aliens, so why Lucas chose to surround chancellor Palpatine with them is another mystery. part of the act to get power.. duh.. . The Emperor was Xenophobic.. but he was by no means an idiot either..

10, 3po's memory was wiped so there's no way he could remember ever meeting Ben Kenobi, was Ben Kenobi's and R2's mind also wiped??
ben Kenobi was VERY old.. and if you watch the episodes.. he never states he does not know R2D2, just that he never remembered owning a droid.. and as Jedi.. he won't have.

11, Anakin Skywalker is a descendant of another Jedi Knight by the name of Nomi Sunrider who was involved in the first great Sith War.... It is not known who Anikan Skywalker is related to.. HOWEVER.. the TRUE accepted non-canon source atm.. is that he was actually created by palpatines Master and meant to be the greatest force user ever.. which he could have been.. as it stands Master Yoda was the strongest force user of all time (due to knowledge, experience, and ACTUAL power.. yadda yadda..). Anikan was a miracle baby.. with miraculous conception to emphasise his meaning.. it's a comparison to Jesus..

i could go on and on but i think those are enough lol, anyway's, i am arguing that Lucas made and then destroyed one the greatest story's ever put on celluloid, the prequals are only fit for the bin...

agree or disagree???

DISAGREE!!!!!

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