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In one of my more recent bouts of utter depression *puts hand up* - yeah I suffer from it pretty seriously - I have found myself delving very deeply into life after death. The conclusions.. although shocking.. and maybe accepted merely as a convenience to tend to my own concerns and struggling/vulnerable mental state, were ultimately very compelling and although my own mental situation refuses to give doubt a reasonable vacation in the face of logic and even perhaps Ochams razor.. I thought I would share my research's findings with you all.

To begin with though. The initial situation. Two thousands years ago.. and prior to that. Humanity was scientifically and arguably, but not certainly, more culturally primitive. They lived in a society ruled by Gods and deity's, created to explain the unexplainable from everything between the wind and death itself.

As we grew as a species, our knowledge of the universe advancing.. but by no means near completion. The magical things in the world were explained more often. We were no longer the centre of the universe, in fact science was kind enough to give us the most depressing cynical view possible.. that we were.. all individually a single grain of sand in the wind, here today, gone tomorrow making no noticeable impact on reality or the universe. Ashes to ashes.. dust to dust.
As far as I am concerned, enough to make anyone with a brain or self pride at least take a gulp. It was only a few years ago.. where scientist's were discussing with government officials about removing the idea of an afterlife altogether from schools.. replacing it with us becoming inanimate star dust - hardly a comparison if you ask me.

So, I sat there with all this prior knowledge to my searches... asking myself. What's the point? If we're so insignificant.. then logically.. our lives have no meaning other than those created by our own cultures and societies.. which will ultimately end.. and everything.. is.. pointless.

So of course. No. This is not something... I would take lying down. For our entire recorded history and beyond.. humans have, no matter how primitive or advanced seen something beyond a pointless existence.

I collected the evidence.. in stages. Firstly the coincidences. Universe is made. Energy (the substance behind our very existence) is never destroyed or made, merely moved and recycled. Earth. within 3degree's of our extinction either way somehow despite massive recorded meteor strikes and other cosmic events, it remained for billions of years. Oxygen, Carbon.. through my sources and research apparently very unlikely for them to have even been produced or at least made in enough quantity to be used to support and make ourselves. Gravity.. it goes on. Can we somehow... replace intelligent design with a massive string of unlikely coincidences? Maybe.. maybe not.

So moving on. Science. The anti-christ so to speak (follow me here..). In the past ten years science has taken more and more of a forefront. More and more often it has been used to explain where we come from, how things came about, pushing any ideas of God, Jesus and faith further and further towards doubt. Nostrodarmus.. seems to have made.. another correct prediction.. that in this century the anti-christ would indeed rise. It's not a man or Satan.. it IS science. An interesting tid-bit (as I am not a religious man by any means.. as much as I would not mind having faith).

Science has explained and unravelled many mysteries. From how we're made.. to what happens to the body at the point of death. The funny, and yet.. interesting part is their explanation for abstract thought. There isn't one. They've got nothing that fits. Yeah.. the brain reacts, the brain controls.. but the brain does not apparently act for everything. So.. there we go. Case solved? Not by a long shot. The Abstract thought.. is a product of the brain. Fair enough. Where is it? In science, for something to exist.. it has to have a physical manifestation, an ability to be measured. This can't happen with abstract thought.. or consciousness itself for that matter. There is no way to do it.
Not the first time it has happened. An experiment with two Photons took place many years ago. Basically.. at sub atomic levels (smaller than 10 to the power -17 magnification) something happens. Something we cannot see, and something that defies the natural laws of physics and science. (A seemingly random part of information... but the point being to demonstrate that things don't always follow the way science has discovered them and believes it knows..). At a further note.. the mind body problem. Woops.. immaterial.. and material.. cannot logically interact. Hold the phone. By physics admittance. The smallest distance is 10 to the power -23. After which the distance gets too small.. and.. oh yeah baby...reality breaks down, aside from the fact that.. already at this point.. the natural laws of physics do not apply ANYWAY. Mind-body problem solved? Apparently not..could not find anything regarding that.. but seems a logical conclusion to me..

Ok.. damage to the brain effects the way we act, changes our character.. can make us up or down. Surely... if (humour me..) I used the old computer analogy then.. if the keyboard and the computer are broken, or get a virus.. then the person or thing trying to use it.. will have problems? Will be incapable of repairing something that (again, humour me) is beyond their capabilities to repair... no?

So.. yeah. Science = inaccurate atm. Cannot explain something like light waves/particles (unless it starts to delve into Everett's multiple world theories and the Copenhagen theorem - but then that actually brings us back to life after death anyway.. because by THOSE scientific theories the universe needs sentient perception to exist - yes.. I did just say part of physics supports a field of rationalism), consciousness.. and can only answer the amazing string of events and magnificent things in the universe as a massive co-inkydink.

Anyway.. continuing.

So yeah. Science and religion are a bit flummoxed. So moving on. NDE's. For the unread - Near Death Experiences. When people are near dying they see things. Characterised in.. a single bright light. A tunnel and a repeat of their lives - oh yes, and a massive slowing down of perceived time. By all accounts.. exactly what Christianity promised would happen at the time of death.. the tunnel leading to the afterlife, the guardian angel and the judgement followed by eternal existence. In scientific terms.. lack of oxygen causing problems with the nerves at the back of the retina, making us hallucinate and the dying brain releasing chemicals to slow our perceptions of time, make us feel warm and cosy in the face of massive stress and finally all our memories being repeated at once and giving us the 'out of body experience'. One big.. massive epileptic fit.

So. Yeah. *applauds science*.. nice one. Erm.. if that's the case.. why does it only happen in 18% of people in that situation? Science = no answer. Why can a blind person.. who's been blind for over ten years, tell people what coloured clothing they were wearing at the point of the NDE? Science = lucky guesses! Why have people been able to.. and I s-hit you not.. predict some future events? Science = they lied. Science replies - we'll put pictures and things on high shelves and a message on a piece of paper near the ceiling. Can you see them? Patient = no. However.. as rightly pointed out.. firstly there is no 'designated height' for an OBE, secondly... as one patient rightly replied. "I was dying, what did I care about a message on the roof?".

The final conclusions of NDE's.. are yet to be seen.. currently an English university is conducting a three year study into it, with 1500 test subjects.

Lets move on.. with our string of amazingly convenient coincidences. Ghost's. Ghouls. Spirits. Lies? Maybe... Anyone know? Actually.. no. Far too many things in this field to address to be honest suffice to say... as more humans have lived.. there have been more sightings. Weak argument at best...but still one massive thorn in any unbelievers side. Especially when pictures, videos and photo's produce some shocking imagery.

Religion. OK. Bible.. tossing that sucker out the window from the word go. Let's not beat it round the bush. Religion, the bible are man made constructs. NOT really accurate.. a lot of people have meddled with them over the millennia some very greedy and manipulative, even power mad. No greater power over a man than to grant him his deepest desires - eternal nirvana with his family and friends. Pretty romantic notion. AT the same time though.. one has to question.. whether a thousands of year old testament (not the bible.. I am talking about man's sentient belief.. - oh no! The Trademark argument!) for a creator and an afterlife. Could it be wrong. Yes, of course it bloody could. Even now, in a scientific age.. whether it is fear.. or a trademark.. it still endures in every echelon of life from scientist's to business men to bar waitresses.

Innocent children (and there is a supporting study, i'll be dammed if I can remember it though) are born with the innocent belief that there is something.. it's not necessarily God.. or Jesus.. but just something. Before society corrupts, and human understandings.. children are.. completely innocent, without concern... and as science also shows us.. they are capable of dreaming in the womb and a lot of evidence supports higher brain functions and the likes, suggesting something is already there until the time of birth.. when all findings show we're born in great stress and - an epileptic fit almost. OK.. so animals have been proven to have dream. Looking at this scientifically and not mystically.. they too do live and have a more primitive consciousness no reason why an animal cannot gain immortality either.

Let's push on though...As I digressed into an area touching upon reincarnation.. yet I am unfinished with religion. I say to you.. miracles? Mystic healers.. there was a girl in america a few years back. Bed ridden, mentally challenged, could barely speak. The pictures in her house bled oil, she touched and 'blessed' people and ACTUALLY healed them. A little lad, the best documented case of her actions.. with a genetic disease. She blessed him.. and erm.. well.. his symptoms.. against all odds.. improved to the point of near normality without any medical aid.

Finally in religion.. is the man himself. Jesus Christ. There are.. very very very.. few historical references to him beyond the bible.. which we've already thrown out. The only proof he even existed, and it's questionable proof at that.. is the Turin Shroud. Originally carbon dated to be a mere 800 years old.. the carbon daters did further research and admitted they were wrong (due to the shroud being repaired after being burnt later in it's existence). The man who led the project admitted that it could well be 1500-2000 years old, easily. A few things surround the shroud - such as it's amazingly accurate impression of a man, who has all the correct wounds and markings and descriptions expected of Jesus Christ. Jesus is not proof as such.. but.. he's a hint.. another coincidence. I mean.. there is no direct explanation as to how the shroud was made - yeah, there are scientific theories.. but none are certain or even accurate possibilities.

So here.. I draw to a close and near conclusion. There is much we don't understand...in science, the universe and our little world. Whether is be someone begging to the heavens for a sign and seeing a stain appear on their bed of a man holding a bird on his knees.. or a disembodied voice yelling out to you, asking you what a loved one would look like in a coffin the day before he dies. Or.. a man who can control and act as a conductor for electricity.. as high as mains voltage. Or the many ghost's.. ghouls and spirits that supposedly haunt our earth. Or maybe.. we are reborn.. maybe.. all it takes is an 11 year old boy with the memories of a WWII fighter pilot...

I cannot say I myself.. am sold.. as much as I want to be...my opening paragraph made you aware.. my personal misery prevents me from enjoying much at the moment. But alas.. I thought I should spread the thoughts and ideas that now sit in my mind.. to all those willing to read. My research has been extensive.. and will continue.

Sees long ass post... blinks eyes

* asks for summary*

Pimping D wrote:Sees long ass post... blinks eyes

* asks for summary*

There is no sufficient summary.

then* brings out glasses and reads his creators post*

Its okay Semp. Dont mind what everyone else is saying about you. I think youre a sound guy

I read the whole thing, and have a few comments:

We are like a grain of sand in the Universe, but so are everyone else in the Universe, and someone has to make an impact

The Bible may have been changed over the years, but the impact it has had on hundreds of millions of people means something.

Ghosts, I believe, exist, but are just imprints of humans, everyone has one once they die but most cant be seen

OBE are... possible... my dad said he had one, he drowned and was dead momentarily

Jesus existed

Semper....congratulations on saying what I myself couldn't put in sufficient terms. I don't see how anyone could think otherwise after that prose. You, my friend, should write a book. Seriously, not even joking.

ramen07 wrote:Semper....congratulations on saying what I myself couldn't put in sufficient terms. I don't see how anyone could think otherwise after that prose. You, my friend, should write a book. Seriously, not even joking.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

*Reads*



I congratulate you on your very well written out thoughts on life, I hope you research more into it and post more up soon!

*huggles semper*

you really need to get out more. play more type less

Semper, read my thoughts on reality in the "what is reality?" thread. I talk a bit about science in there, as well.

I have a huge problem with Empiricism in general, let's say. Its premises are not only presumptuous, but filled with so many assumptions. *sigh* I can see why you're confused.

Mind you, you made quite a few assumptions in your text, throwing things out without much to support doing so and bringing unsupported anecdotal evidence and the likes. At the same time, you asked some good questions about science.

Science, however, is not the answer. It knows only that which is can observe and it puts too much faith in its ability to observe. Understand that we cannot know all, but that which we can know, we can deduce, albeit often only conditionally.

Agapooka

~Josh~ wrote:I read the whole thing, and have a few comments:

We are like a grain of sand in the Universe, but so are everyone else in the Universe, and someone has to make an impact
Even an impact can be pointless.. meaningless.. aimless...insignificant. Maybe locally... in present time it CAN be significant.. however if this universe is infinite as we think it is.. and ignoring our finite ideas of god and beyond.. well once again, we reside ourselves to a pointless situation. Perhaps in time.. man maybe able to make ourselves a significant feature.. but that remains to be seen.

The Bible may have been changed over the years, but the impact it has had on hundreds of millions of people means something. Something I don't deny, and the lessons about how to behave such as shown in the 10 commandments of the bible are very commendable.. but religion and the bible itself.. are false and full of errors as the men who wrote it. It has no place in an empirical discussion, only one of faith and personal enlightenment.

Ghosts, I believe, exist, but are just imprints of humans, everyone has one once they die but most cant be seen

OBE are... possible... my dad said he had one, he drowned and was dead momentarily Never said they were not possible. In fact I was assuming they were. It's an NDE that may or may not have been misinterpreted.

Jesus existed

Not in the sense everyone knows.. and even then it is questioned. There are several related extracts to a Jesus.. a wandering mystic of the jewish faith, a revolutionary. Nothing special than a man with a plan or greed.

It is theorised that the first gospel writer wrote a work of fiction to give their new religion a symbol. As we all know.. symbols are powerful things. At the time.. he was also a VERY powerful man within the church itself.. so he could have said and done much of what he wanted.

All this thinking could be written in year 500 B.C.Just someone might wonder how Zeus does his lightning.

First have to disagree on your first assumption that ancient world was lead by gods.Greeks were very great theorists but never bothered with experimenting.Old world didnt differ much from modern with exemption of electricity and more cruel way of living(this only differs in how we prepare our food,if you would to go and slain a chicken everyday for a lunch then human life also losses value.It is only because we buy food in grocery we lost our lust for blood and hence our civilization values arise)They were asking the same questions you are and also gave answers to them(Platon etc).

It is arrogant to think that because we have refrigerator that we know all.But with right methods we are sure on the right track to get those answers but once one rock is removed there is usually another one behind it.Its the way of life.

People tend to equate science and religion but that is not the case.It is not science intention to disprove religion its just a side affect science has.Science is only a word that describe some methodological studies.So if I say 1+1=2 and I have two apples and count them and see my equation is correct I call this science and this equation has no effect in anything philosophically.It is just a simple equation there is no reason why this law cant apply if science is discovering any other thing you noted in your essay or can imagine.

Science only discover,answer it doesnt give any philosophically answers.And why should it...1+1=2 there isnt anything smart in this.

Science is misinterpreted like Darwins theory.It is not fate,its not believe it only state facts.If you dont get it or even worse if you dont want to understand it then its very hard to explain evolution but If someone just opens his eyes and see that mutation happens all the time and if a mutation is helping animal to bread more it is just normal to presume that there will be more offspring with same mutation hence there will be new breed.But evolution answers only that It doesnt give you any philosophically answer,Its not supposed to do that.It only tells us what it was written for.To explain how we become.

So I jump back to beginning all your questions will one day be answered by science.Not because science wants to defeat religion (well if I use this term this happened a long time ago) but because there cant be any other way of action at this point.A lot of those questions are covered already in quantum physics.Its odd stuff,Einstein didnt get it but still he wrote it.List goes on and its very long.There is a bunch of things we removed from supernatural and normally stuff is there to be removed some more.If our moon wouldnt be aligned exactly how it is and we wouldnt have gas giants to guard us against meteor shower we wouldnt be here to discuss about it wouldnt we.It is not right to turn this argument another way around to say what if it wasnt like that.It is because this way we came into being.Any other way we wouldnt be here.

1+1=2 will provide answers but in time.That equation also doesnt move us away from religion,religion is doing that by itself by all that mambo jumbo.Great thing about science is that it correct it self when its wrong,one thing that religion cannot do and its not able to do and thats why religion is taken more and more away from us.All those NDE will be explained not by The Book but by measurements and observations.Sure today it looks like impossible task but so was flight wasnt it?

And what about meaning of life...we get to wonder about it because we can?Dog doesnt give a rats behind about his being here...all he want is to be fed.So do we but we have this luxury of thinking but before that we have a luxury of easy access to food.And this give us opportunity to think and discuss about our meaning.

My personal opinion is,there is none.We happened!How,where etc. is irrelevant to meaning of life.We happened or we were created or whatever suits you the best but we have no meaning.We are here to exist when we die we stop to exists.We are turned off like a radio,we just shut down no tunnels,no 2000 years old door kepper(wonders whatever happened to those before him).Does tree continue his being like a poltergeist?How about virus or amoeba?Why should we?Because we have food and we have ability to think about it?Does lava or any other changing form of non living also die when it changes shape?Its only a chemical process like we are?Does ice dies when it become water?Same thing happens to us doesnt it?We die,our energy is given away to surrounding,we decay and we get back in the system.Thats it no poltergeist,no nothing just darkness.

But because we fear that darkness so much we like to invent thing and especially we very like to believe in things like ghosts,heavens and similar mambo jumbo.Mark my words if there is anything after dead which I sincerely doubt or rather know there isnt science will disclose it sooner or later.And then what?When there is nothing there?Chaos,major civilisation collapse?


Science will reveal facts it will not show you the road only how this road is made.

unseen1 wrote:It is not science intention to disprove religion its just a side affect science has

Not true:

Semper wrote:Finally in religion.. is the man himself. Jesus Christ. There are.. very very very.. few historical references to him beyond the bible.. which we've already thrown out. The only proof he even existed, and it's questionable proof at that.. is the Turin Shroud. Originally carbon dated to be a mere 800 years old.. the carbon daters did further research and admitted they were wrong (due to the shroud being repaired after being burnt later in it's existence). The man who led the project admitted that it could well be 1500-2000 years old, easily.

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unseen1 wrote:Science only discover,answer it doesnt give any philosophically answers.And why should it...1+1=2 there isnt anything smart in this.

Look at the above quote for the "philosophical answer". And how, in any possible way, can you equate "1+1=2" with the irrevocably enormous field of science? That is akin to equating your glass of water to the Pacific Ocean.
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unseen1 wrote:1+1=2 will provide answers but in time.That equation also doesnt move us away from religion,religion is doing that by itself by all that mambo jumbo.

This "mambo jumbo" you speak of is somehow understood by untold amounts of people in nearly all denominations...

1+1=2 already has provided an answer...or do quantum mechanics suggest a different outcome?
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unseen1 wrote:Science will reveal facts it will not show you the road only how this road is made.

I don't see where you're going with the metaphor; scientific instruments do show "the road" in many instances (magnifying glass, scalpel, chainsaw)
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Sorry to rain on your Science fair, but Semper has you beat here.