Page 1 of 11

Creationism vs Evolution... not the usual 2cents.

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:51 pm
by semper
So, recently whether some are aware or not.. a poll was taken in the UK (amongst other countries, but we focus on the UK for the purpose of numbers) and the poll showed that out of 990~ people around 51% believed that evolution and creationism should be taught parallel to one another in schools. This can be further broken down to the point where some believed that both should be taught in Science lessons, others believed R.S (R.E) should be left for creationism and the study of other religions. In total a full 75% of the population completely agreed with the teaching of evolution as a indisputable scientific theory, the other 25% being indifferent or against it.

At the same time, it has been stressed by the British government that they do not endorse the acceptance of intelligent design or creationism as viable topics of reasonable focus for school education beyond the confines of R.S.

When it comes down to it.. I believe in several points on the issue.

firstly the belief that a scientific theory is so exclusively correct is a fool hardly cause no matter the facts. To this day Science remains a dynamic discipline with regards to theories and things generally accepted as fact. Despite this truer view on science, too many ignorant sods are all too willing to follow it's current dogmatic regime to the letter making awfully illogical conclusions from certain theories. Even more annoying are the people who cling very desperately to every sheep socially made conclusion when they know very little regarding the actual subject.

Secondly is the mere fact that.. all of a sudden arguments for intelligent design and even the further explored adaptations of creationism are being abhorred and dismissed as nothing more than fantasy on a political level. Something I find a tremendous statement of stupidity and an insult not to my own personal beliefs, but to others I do hold dear. A lot of people are all too quick to come to the conclusion that due to no direct empirical evidence for the non physical (an oxymoron..:P) that directly means such a thing cannot exist. The absence of evidence is being taken as disproof. Something I find even more absurd when, in my opinion at least. If Occam's Razor or just simple logic is applied.. Intelligent Design is an acceptable theory that fits with science very well...although I am not so naive as to not suspect the presence of seeking satisfaction when faced with oblivion.

Thirdly is the subject of 'choice' (removing the question of whether we have it or not for the sake of progress here..) Both subjects should surely be taught with equal weight to allow people to make their own decisions (a point based mainly on the fact creationism has not been completely disproved...I throw out Descartes brain in a vat argument for consideration) I say this for several reasons.
-Firstly I do not believe children should be forced to face the prospect of their mortality at such a young age, imagination and peace of mind (whether it's false and necessary or not).
-Secondly religion has massive benefits in modern society with regards to moral code and personal discipline not to mention it can add a easily accepted meaning to life that I know a lot of people do need.
-Thirdly I already mentioned the presence of the fact we cannot remove (although it IS reasonable to do so, but doing so leaves us with intelligent design anyway) Descartes point about the brain in a vat of malicious demon. The point being...everything we know, all memories and empirical evidence could just be being fed to us and there may be no actual history.

Ultimately Evolution should be taught in science. Creationism should be taught in R.S, both as view points or facts depending on the circumstances. Intelligent design should be hinted at/referred to in both as a viable option, but not fact. Both subjects should be mandatory until school options and finally each subject tutor should be aware of the facts of the other system and be knowledgeable enough to mix and match fairly.

[spoiler]On a personal note.. I do believe and recognise evolution as a fact. I am also open to the idea of intelligent design and do support it as being a more logical answer to a lot of things, though I keep that separate from the commonly conceived 'God' and other things such as the afterlife and Christianity etc etc to which I have a different set of beliefs and systems (ultimately residing myself to "we don't know" which is the simple and truthful fact of the matter).[/spoiler]

Re: Creationism vs Evolution... not the usual 2cents.

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:47 am
by unseen1
Completely agreed and while we are at it lets implement an Argonaut theory in history teaching and we could also add an Earth being in centre of universe in science class once again. :lol:

Edit:

We could also add that story about birds and bees to biology classes.Its all about diversity and choices right? :lol:

Re: Creationism vs Evolution... not the usual 2cents.

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:39 pm
by Sarevok
unseen1 wrote:Completely agreed and while we are at it lets implement an Argonaut theory in history teaching and we could also add an Earth being in centre of universe in science class once again. :lol:

Edit:

We could also add that story about birds and bees to biology classes.Its all about diversity and choices right? :lol:

Your apparent arrogance towards the subject leads me to believe your one of the people whom claim "Science proved it, so it MUST be true", without actually realizing that science hasn't proved one way or the other on the subject

There are several reasons which I've come across which lead me to question the apparent validity of the evolutionary theory. I can't post them now, as I'm at university, however, once i get home, I'll see if i can find them and post them on here.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution... not the usual 2cents.

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:37 pm
by fourtwozero
I am pretty on par with Semper here. I think creationism isn't a far fetched idea if you define the details well enough.

I think the idea Adam and Eve just popped on the scene and started getting jiggy with it to create the human race is the most absurd thing in the world. Where is the genetic and biological diversity required for the race to remain fertile? OR did god only implement the necessity for biological diversity later in life?

The argument for creationism, the only one I am open to, is the idea of life being "seeded". It is hard to beleive how quickly life exploded on the planet without some form of catalyst. Science can explain the catalyst to be many things, but none conclusive enough, prove it can't of been by some "alien bacteria" that came from "above" that sparked something so grand.

I would really love to hear the arguments against evolution though. As evolution in my mind is something near impossible to disprove in existence, be it part of a creationism argument or not there is nothing I have found that can disprove the evidence of evolution.

But hey, I am not so closed minded to completley ignore arguments that can prove otherwise! Just haven't encountered any water-tight enough to go with.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution... not the usual 2cents.

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:03 pm
by ~[ Greased Gerbil ]~
I feel I need to chime in here. My main problem in this argument is the insistence that a person sit wholly on one side or the other.

When I tell people that I am a practicing Catholic, they say "So you only believe in creationism...?". I say "Yep... and evolution". What many people conveniently ignore, is that the Bible - namely the Old Testament - is not a scientific journal, it is a story (parts of which are true, parts of which are stories intended to question one's morality).

Imagine you are an ancient Jew, and God appears to you to impart his glorious wisdom regarding the origins of the universe and mankind. You have no concept genetics, or even - by today's standards - simple biology. You have no way of even remotely comprehending even the most basic scientific principles behind millions of years of evolution, mutation, migration and extinction. If God told you that something crawled out of the water and over many years, became man, would you eat fish again? You'd be scared to do anything, for fear that you are destroying something that may one day "Evolve" into a person.

The scientific principles of evolution, as we understand them today, would have scared the sandals off the ancient Jews. They would have lacked most of the simple words necessary to even convey such ideas. In my opinion, the story of creation is God's way of dumbing it all down enough for Moses and the ancient Jews to comprehend..... catering to the scientific enlightenment of the time.

GG

Re: Creationism vs Evolution... not the usual 2cents.

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:34 am
by Mister Sandman
^^ Partially agree.


Creationism and Evolution, well the rational parts of evolution do not conflict. (e.g Humans evolving from apes... please, how illogical, there is alot of scientific evidence against that part...)


Both creationism and evolution should be taught both objectively.
Mainly, because both are science... and they dont necessary contradict...

I got taught creationism... and how all evolution was wrong... for the assigned paper... which the task was hinting towards argue how evolution is wrong and creationism is right...

I wrote about how they are no different and how evolution is logical proof of intelligent design.... it annoyed the lecturer because I got 100% .... because it is logically true.

Evolution doesnt explain the creation, it explains the process..


Further reasoning for the teaching of creationism and evolution is Australia, and the UK is a Christian nation, and thus, logically should teach both as a scientific principle.

fourtwozero wrote:
I think the idea Adam and Eve just popped on the scene and started getting jiggy with it to create the human race is the most absurd thing in the world. Where is the genetic and biological diversity required for the race to remain fertile? OR did god only implement the necessity for biological diversity later in life?

...educate yourself before you embarrass yourself.... what i mean is... you need to learn about genealogy and biological diversity more...

unseen1 wrote:.... we could also add an Earth being in centre of universe in science class once again. :lol:

Edit:

We could also add that story about birds and bees to biology classes.Its all about diversity and choices right? :lol:

For the record... Christianity, didnt state ever state the earth was being the centre of the universe. ... so... that is irrelevant miky..... secondly... the birds and the bees, should be taught in science class... why not? simply put... it should be done in more than one instance... 1. By the parents... 2. By the science class.. 3. Sex ed... 4. Church

Re: Creationism vs Evolution... not the usual 2cents.

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:40 am
by fourtwozero
Mister Sandman wrote:
fourtwozero wrote:
I think the idea Adam and Eve just popped on the scene and started getting jiggy with it to create the human race is the most absurd thing in the world. Where is the genetic and biological diversity required for the race to remain fertile? OR did god only implement the necessity for biological diversity later in life?

...educate yourself before you embarrass yourself.... what i mean is... you need to learn about genealogy and biological diversity more...


I have a degree in biological engineering :roll: ... There are many people that beleive creationism to the point of adam and eve. Maybe you should educate yourself on that area. That is where I draw the line on creationism, those that beleive creationism as taught from the bible. Don't attack me because you don't understand my post, simply ask for more information. I was not trying to put down all relgious beleifs, just that I find it incredibly hard to beleive that life really begun ~6,000 years ago with 2 humans.

Please don't be insulting, everyone else has managed to be civil so far.

I completley agree with the version of the old testament being a way of "dumbing down" the incredibly complex processes of life (that may or may not of been intelligent design). Some of the scientific and evolutionary processes mirrored in the bible are sometimes staggering. Although never fully explained in a scientific manner, it would have to be said that some level of understanding would be needed to produce such exemplary understandable stories of processes we are only just learning about today.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution... not the usual 2cents.

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:46 am
by Mister Sandman
Im trying to be civil...

On a point there... who said it has to be 6000 years ago...

in addition... where is the scientific backing that it is impossible to say 2 people are responsible for the entire human race...


These days it is unwise to intermarry i.e marry cousins ect... agree? That is because our geanology is worse....

Who is to say that they wern't just purer human copies. i.e making it plausible and socially acceptable for 2 'pure' creations to give birth too all humanity..


I was just saying, you need to look into more depth before you make claims..

Re: Creationism vs Evolution... not the usual 2cents.

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:09 am
by unseen1
Sarevok wrote:Your apparent arrogance towards the subject leads me to believe your one of the people whom claim "Science proved it, so it MUST be true", without actually realizing that science hasn't proved one way or the other on the subject


No Im one of those people who like to see evidence before any kind of belief.
And what exactly didnt science prove?

Sarevok wrote:There are several reasons which I've come across which lead me to question the apparent validity of the evolutionary theory. I can't post them now, as I'm at university, however, once i get home, I'll see if i can find them and post them on here.


Name one I beg you..

Creamy Tart wrote:When I tell people that I am a practicing Catholic, they say "So you only believe in creationism...?". I say "Yep... and evolution". What many people conveniently ignore, is that the Bible - namely the Old Testament - is not a scientific journal, it is a story (parts of which are true, parts of which are stories intended to question one's morality).


Now lets define creationism or I like more appropriate term intelligent design ...
If you under that term think that someone made life in some lab and throw in on Earth then I nor evolution theory cant do much about it to contradict.It is very much possible.And in all evolution theory you wont find any word that tries to deny it.Because evolution explain EVOLUTION of life not how it begun.Sure there has been tries to explain it but not very successful ones.But If someone made some amino-acids and scatered them across prehistoric ocean you can hardly call that an "intellient design"yet alone "creationism".Well for our standards maybe but who know in hundred years of now,maybe we will produce amoeba a day by then :lol:
If you however under that term think that someone created all life as it is today...must I go on how absurd is this?!?And in all that hyper creationism he even planted fossils to confuses us...It goes even more absurd then this :lol: Well that is creations "theory".Thats what they want to learn in school.You dont believe me,believe doctor,professor pgd,mba http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDSBFQBrLII he will tell you what creationism is all about.I vomit twice in first 2 minutes.

Creamy Tart wrote:Imagine you are an ancient Jew, and God appears to you to impart his glorious wisdom regarding the origins of the universe and mankind.You have no concept genetics, or even - by today's standards - simple biology. You have no way of even remotely comprehending even the most basic scientific principles behind millions of years of evolution, mutation, migration and extinction. If God told you that something crawled out of the water and over many years, became man, would you eat fish again? You'd be scared to do anything, for fear that you are destroying something that may one day "Evolve" into a person.

The scientific principles of evolution, as we understand them today, would have scared the sandals off the ancient Jews. They would have lacked most of the simple words necessary to even convey such ideas. In my opinion, the story of creation is God's way of dumbing it all down enough for Moses and the ancient Jews to comprehend..... catering to the scientific enlightenment of the time.

GG


Imagine Mr. Spock trying to explain to you what warp drive is?Why you so underestimate their intellect.There was one Greek who calculated how long is equator and all he had was his intellect.But I see your point how hard would be to explain something to a leader of mob of thugs.
And yet its hard to explain to him about simple bees and birdies but he can easily comprehend voice from a mountain.Today people who hear voices in mountains are usually given help in medical institutions.


Mr.Sandman you want brutal or nice?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution... not the usual 2cents.

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:34 pm
by ~[ Greased Gerbil ]~
But If someone made some amino-acids and scatered them across prehistoric ocean you can hardly call that an "intellient design"yet alone "creationism"


I create a quiche by lining a pan with puff pastry, filling it with scrambled eggs and bits of meat, then putting it in the oven. The quiche does not exist simply because I conceive it, it is a process. There are stages. Nonetheless, when it is finished, it is my creation.

Imagine Mr. Spock trying to explain to you what warp drive is?Why you so underestimate their intellect.There was one Greek who calculated how long is equator and all he had was his intellect.But I see your point how hard would be to explain something to a leader of mob of thugs.
And yet its hard to explain to him about simple bees and birdies but he can easily comprehend voice from a mountain.Today people who hear voices in mountains are usually given help in medical institutions.


We understand some of the principles behind warp drive; such as, that an object's mass precludes it from generating enough energy to travel faster than light. We also have decades of pop culture educating us. That is the late 20th century level of enlightenment. So, imagine Mr Spock explaining warp drive to your equator-calculating Greek... Next, I wouldn't refer to the Jews as a mob of thugs. I think they would have been on an intellectual level consistent with the time.

I'm sure the ancient Jews understood the "birds and bees". Man + Woman -> Pregnancy -> Child. They did have some idea of natural function. Your mountain example is a question of ideology. We are discussing a time when people's lives revolved around their religion. A man received a message from God because he and his followers had faith that such claim was genuine; and he was able to interpret that message because the messenger (God) wanted him to. People who hear voices on mountains nowadays are branded as loonies because that is consistent with the ideology of today.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution... not the usual 2cents.

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:58 pm
by Kit-Fox
Removed

Re: Creationism vs Evolution... not the usual 2cents.

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:13 pm
by bleedingblue
sandman, even if your speculation that adam and eve were a "purer" form of man, it is still impossible to generate the geneology needed to produce a fertile species. and what your implying by saying concevieng a child with a cousin or sister, is based completely on socail acceptances based on the morals and values which come about because of civilization, something there was a biiiit of a lack of during the suppposed time of adam and eve...

dont get me wrong though. im standing next to the metaphorical fence on the evolution side, but i've been knocking on the planks testing out the fence for quite a while. both theories have UNDENIABLE flaws, and those who would deny that are simply blinded by their need of an explanation, regardless of which side they claim. i tend to be a more logical thinker and prefer facts to blind acceptance of an idea. if somebody walked up to me on the street and told me that i had pink eyes, i would call them retarded and tell them my eyes are blue. however, the chance that i DID have pink eyes that caused me to see things differently still exists and would therefore make ME the retard, understand?

then again, the possibility that semper pointed out exists as well. all the facts that support evolution could simply be falacies created by a superior being, as well as any concept of free-will, in which case the arguement over whether or not creationism should be taught alongside evolution is completely irrelevant because the choice on the matter isnt a choice at all....

nd semper, i love your ability to stir the community into chaos simply by posting your views on a topic... :-D hero! :-D

Re: Creationism vs Evolution... not the usual 2cents.

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:35 pm
by fourtwozero
Mister Sandman wrote:Im trying to be civil...

On a point there... who said it has to be 6000 years ago...


Many many people, have you heard of the bible belt in the american mid west? Look into their beleifs, in particular a 7 million dollar museum that is being built (may have been built by now) supposed to support creationism.


in addition... where is the scientific backing that it is impossible to say 2 people are responsible for the entire human race...

These days it is unwise to intermarry i.e marry cousins ect... agree? That is because our geanology is worse....

Who is to say that they wern't just purer human copies. i.e making it plausible and socially acceptable for 2 'pure' creations to give birth too all humanity..

I was just saying, you need to look into more depth before you make claims..


Please don't tell me that I should look more in depth on it, you seem like a jealous 12 year old when you do it. Maybe you should use different phrases like "I dont agree with what you are saying". What I can't beleive is anyone could seriously think the species Homo Sapien could spawn from 2 fully evolved Homo Sapiens. Where did the two homo sapiens come from? Isn't it a bit odd that the most complex life form just appeared?

Yes geneaology says most of us most likely have genes that decend from a key family, but the point I was trying to make is that biological diversity is generally accepted for a species' long term survival. Yes not all agree, and you don't have to, but please don't tell me I am wrong as thats as bad as quoting Wikipedia.

Remember to try and be civil as requested, I have not once told you to "research the matter" even though I would love for you to have studied some of the things I did, as I have no idea what you know (until you prove it) so instead I will ASK you what you know, so I can become more educated on what you know. Make sense?


There are some terrific opinions here, and please understand that even though I have no religion of my own, I have a lot of faith. Even though I am scientifically (and mathimatically) trained, I still think there is a place in our scientific world for theories on intelligent design and creationism.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution... not the usual 2cents.

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:10 pm
by Kit-Fox
Removed

Re: Creationism vs Evolution... not the usual 2cents.

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:36 pm
by ~[ Greased Gerbil ]~
Please don't tell me that I should look more in depth on it, you seem like a jealous 12 year old when you do it. Maybe you should use different phrases like "I dont agree with what you are saying". What I can't beleive is anyone could seriously think the species Homo Sapien could spawn from 2 fully evolved Homo Sapiens. Where did the two homo sapiens come from? Isn't it a bit odd that the most complex life form just appeared?


I think Sandman makes a somewhat interesting point. What if man started out as a more genetically "pure" (for want of a better term) form of what we are now. I would postulate that Adam and Eve are examples of early homo-sapien. Every species has to start somewhere, there has to be a first. Some people just choose to refer symbolically to the origin of man and woman as Adam and Eve.

If you read the book of Genesis, you get the idea that man was the end product of a ridiculously long process. Obviously, man did not magically appear. It is just that the story of creation uses "Adam and Eve" as the examples of the origin of man.