StarGateWars Forums

Premise: Make defenses more easily/less costly to rebuild without increasing the difficulty or losing the enjoyment of massing/farming.


Race Social Structure Tech

Name of Tech is tied to the Race Social Structure
-Enslave and Dominate
--Name: Death Mitigation
-Hologram and Stored Consciousness
--Name: Priority Download
-Evolved Replicating AI
--Name: AI Recovery
-Militaristic
--Name: Emergency Teleportation


Recovery Technology designed to recover "killed" nonmerc defense troops.
-5 Tech levels
--Troop Recovery: 8%, 16%, 24%, 32%, 40%
--Cost: 1 Tril, 2 Tril, 3 Tril, 4 Tril, 5 Tril
--Engagement Chance: 100% all levels
---or, 20%, 40%, 60%, 80%, 100%


Workings
-One has
--Tech Level 5
--100,000 Super Defenders

-When attacked
--Loses 10,000 Super Defenders
--4,000 of those troops are saved without Attacker knowledge.
---Troops still count as killed units for the attacker
----no adjustment to battle logs needed

-For AB
--This tech only counts the troops killed after the AB,
---Tech level 5, will only save 50% of the troops killed after the AB.
---Similar to ascensions Personal Constitution, that only negates damage that reaches you.


Unit Recovery
-Somewhere have a button that allows one to manual recover the number of defenders saved.
--Much like the recovery system in the Market Broker.
-Recovered units return as trained Super Defenders/ Reg Defenders respectively.



Race Technology Path Tech

Name of Tech is tied to Race tech path
-Enhanced Naquadah Based
--Naquadah Reacquisition
-Ancient
--Expert Salvage
-Advanced Nano Technology
--Nano Reconstruction
-Advanced Science and Military Tech
--Advanced Recycling


Recovery Technology designed to help rebuild destroyed defense weapons.
---Destroyed weapons means when completely destroyed, not damaged.
----Sabotaged weapons do not count.
-5 Tech levels
--Weapon Material Recovered: 12%, 24%, 36%, 48%, 60%
--Cost: 1 Tril, 2 Tril, 3 Tril, 4 Tril, 5 Tril
--Engagement Chance: 100% all levels


Workings
-One has
--Tech Level 1
--10,000 Defense Weapons
-When massed
--Loses 10,000 Defenses weapons
--Enough material for 1,200 weapons has been gathered


Weapon Recovery
-Somewhere have a button that allows one to manually restore weapons
--Much like the recovery system in the Market Broker.
--Unlike troop recovery, this is not free, it has a naq cost to it, see section below.
-Recovered weapons return as weapons.


Naq Cost to Recover Weapons
-Some new material is needed to get weapons operational.
-Currently Cost Project: 20% of normal weapon purchase
--so instead of paying 599,600 per weapon, one pays 119,920 on recovered weapons

Example
With
-1,000 Weapons = 599,600,000 naq to build.
-tech lvl 5
so after massing
-600 weapons saved = 71,952,000 naq to rebuild.

so
-of the original, 599,600,000 invested, 239,840,000 is lost outright,
- of the 359,760,000 remain, 71,952,000 needed to invest in restoration
- so 287,808,000 remain.
Take
(287,808,000/599,600,000)*100 = 48% of the initial amount of naq invested
--essentially amounts to a free 480 weapons after spending the equivalent amount of naq that would have only gotten 120 weapons.


Why is the cost needed?
-Otherwise, this is too cheap/easy
--particularly to countering AC
--This way, like now, naq still has to be withdrawn.
-Since it is unlikely, that a masser will mass the troops to less than 100 remaining, more than 30% of the units will survive.
-So having less than 50% of the naq invested recovered, helps broaden the gap between the naq cost to rearm and the troops remaining.




Other
-Like all techs, these get lost when ascending.
-Probably need extensive testing in Beta server to fine tune numbers and such
-For simplicity, ME will still record defense units as killed, for both defender/attacker
--even if it actually means, killed and/or....I don't know maybe... wounded, knocked out of action, not dead just very badly burned, troops who had a limb blown off, help I've fallen and can't get up...



TC

I didn't read it all. However, i should point out, that this probably won't make defenses all that much more useful.

When being massed, the primary thing you loose first, is your weapons. Chances are, if you have 10M supers, you'll have like 7.5M left, but all 10M weapons will be completely destroyed. This is when they just use minimal forces, and kill off the units.

Sarevok wrote:I didn't read it all. However, i should point out, that this probably won't make defenses all that much more useful.

When being massed, the primary thing you loose first, is your weapons. Chances are, if you have 10M supers, you'll have like 7.5M left, but all 10M weapons will be completely destroyed. This is when they just use minimal forces, and kill off the units.

Since you didn't read it all, that made it difficult to determine what kind of changes needed to be made. Overall I guess from your example that weapon recovery is more vital than troop recovery than what I anticipated.

So I readjusted a few of the numbers to compensate.

TC

Ah, i SHOULD have taken the time. Sorry.

After a re-read of the weapons section. I'm still not sure this is as useful as it could be.
Sure, it's great we'd get some of the weapon costs re-coped. However, it's not the weapon loss that's the problem. It's mostly the defenders getting killed very cheaply, once the defense is gone.

Perhaps you could have the weapons automatically being recovered. Provided you have enough Naq set aside in some sort of extra bank, to cover the repair. Something like 10% of your bank capacity can be used to store weapon recover Naq?

Good stuff as always TC, I like it.

Sarevok wrote:Ah, i SHOULD have taken the time. Sorry.

After a re-read of the weapons section. I'm still not sure this is as useful as it could be.
Sure, it's great we'd get some of the weapon costs re-coped. However, it's not the weapon loss that's the problem. It's mostly the defenders getting killed very cheaply, once the defense is gone.

Depends on the perspective. Right now, buying 1mil units costs 500bil on market, weapons cost roughly 600bil/mil, so now one saves 100bil naq if they chose to equip more supers rather than buying an extra million weapons with mercs. Assuming one is small enough to buy UU.

Anyway the rates of recovery can always be readjusted or increased, in fact I anticipate they will be a few times, hopefully in a Beta test where lots of testing can go into them.

what I am attempting for is something similar

Defense (being massed) > spies > sabotage > Defense (being massed)

Defense (being massed) is greater because it can be somewhat recovered, spies can't.
Spies are greater because they hinder sabotage, or allow sabotage.
Sabotage is greater because the weapons it destroys are not recoverable.

But not to the extreme where one recovers every part of their defense, that be just silly. Just enough that it can be a very useful tool if one chooses to work with it. Key word, being work.

Sarevok wrote:Perhaps you could have the weapons automatically being recovered. Provided you have enough Naq set aside in some sort of extra bank, to cover the repair. Something like 10% of your bank capacity can be used to store weapon recover Naq?

Well, possible yes. Good, perhaps. But it has been suggested before more along the lines of auto-repairing weapons. That has been shot down in the past and for fairly decent reasons if I remember correctly.

I'll keep my mind open to it for now, and maybe dig into some old threads about it when I get time if they still exist to see what I can find or perhaps another old timer with better memory will tell us.


@Jedi~Tank: Thank you


TC

I know it has. Because people don't like massing people when they can fight back. They prefer to go after them whilst their not there. And auto-repairs would be as if they were there...

However, if you are to limit it, as i said, 10% bank space. Then they can't infinitely repair. And it doesn't stop sabotage. Since that's instant kills the thing, and you don't repair after that. Making sabotage more effective then it is now.

I've spent time thinking about it and considering various situations, and there is a problem with auto-weapon repair that sticks out, and it has to do with the fact it does not take much defense to kill lots of AC units.

Someone with 10 tril + bank, can use 1 tril of that (10% of bank) to maintain a token defense. They do not need it to last forever, just long enough for Critical/Nox to engage. Which will allow virtually full protection of ones spies during war.

Also, auto repair seems to go against my premise of not wanting to increase the difficulty of massing.

TC

TacticalCommander wrote:Also, auto repair seems to go against my premise of not wanting to increase the difficulty of massing.

In which case, massing basically becomes just a time killing exercise and no skill needed.
A similar thing happens already with a Asgard defense. 1/3 times you hit it, you hit the hologram (which counts as a successful attack). Combine that with Nox/Critical, and you can only hit them like 4-5 times/min. Then, once Nox hits in, you might as well leave a Asgard alone, since if you try to strike straight after they get Nox'd, then you'll only hit them once probably.

TacticalCommander wrote:Someone with 10 tril + bank, can use 1 tril of that (10% of bank) to maintain a token defense. They do not need it to last forever, just long enough for Critical/Nox to engage. Which will allow virtually full protection of ones spies during war.TC

But you forget. Spys can kill weapons outright. Which can't be repaired, and must be bought. So these would not be recovered.
The real reason they don't want something like this, is because they'd need more then the 30% to mass a defense. And would require effort

You missed my point on bringing my premise into it.

This suggestion is not about how difficult massing a defense should be. This suggestion is more about keeping massing the way it is. Not what it will become, but what it is.

Auto weapon repair goes against that. Now whether that is good or bad doesn't matter, I'm saying, it no longer belongs in this thread. Now if your saying massing needs to be made more difficult to require more "skill" via use of auto repair, then by all means, please go start another thread to suggest that as the means if you think you can get enough support for it.

That way, if anyone want to actually discuss/support this suggestion, they can do it here, and anyone wanting to talk about that suggestion, can do it there.

TC

Ok then.

The only thing the first suggestion will do, is provide more ME, and keep massing as easy are they are.

Reasoning:
Weapons are what goes out first, so it doesn't matter how many units you have, once the weapons are gone, it's a kill fest. Re-birthing the units, will just mean MORE units are there to be killed, providing MORE intensive to mass. Since the weapons are all gone, and up to 40% of the UU killed will be back to be killed again

Sarevok wrote:Reasoning:
Weapons are what goes out first, so it doesn't matter how many units you have, once the weapons are gone, it's a kill fest. Re-birthing the units, will just mean MORE units are there to be killed, providing MORE intensive to mass. Since the weapons are all gone, and up to 40% of the UU killed will be back to be killed again

I took my time working around this thinking there was some rational to it, but I have to ask, you do realize that those UU will/should also have rebuilt weapons that will kill additional strike troops right?


Right now
Person A masses person B at cost of X = AT + Units loss + naq repair
--assume no significant amount of naq/uu was taken.
That is all there is to it, nothing more,

but with Techs
Person B rebirths units, and I am going to assume he is competent enough to reclaim weapons too

Person A now has to spend and additional Y to remass that smaller version which then gets added to the total cost. Something that he would not have had to do before. Hopefully, Y is greater in value than the cost of reclaiming the defense.

Letting Person A keep the ME is just a little bonus, if you really think he shouldn't get it, then ok. State that adjustment as your idea to be implemented instead of complaining about it. Maybe you will get enough support for it, maybe you wont.



Next, I know how massing works, and about the following kill fest when weapons are gone. I designed these techs (particularly the amount of UU recovered) with that in mind.

If one does not want the rebirth units to be killed really quickly again, there is no time limit on when one has to recovery them. One can easily wait till war/threat has passed. For them, these techs are more an insurance policy, that encourages having a larger defense during peace time, that can be massed at start of war, instead some of the constant small ones.



TC

Side Note: I am doing my best to monitor the current situation with AT's, as soon as I have enough information(facts, not theories/possibilities) on how this effects game play (if it is not reversed at the admin meet), I may or may not look into additional adjustments.

Aha, i see.

I thought you ment, you get defense supers back, but if the weapon is gone, then there just free units to get killed. And that this was automatic.

If they are recoverable at any time, AND they get their weapon back, then it could well be a worth wild idea. Sorry, i think i may have missread what you were trying to imply

Although, perhaps they should have the option to be able to make it automatic? That way, they'll know that the attacker, should they choose to take out your defense, will have a much harder time with it.

-Edit-
Although, isn't this just the same as reducing the death rate of UU to 1/2 what it is now? Apart from the reclaiming weapons part?