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Greased Gerbil's Quote Discussion #4 - Reparations

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:29 pm
by ~[ Greased Gerbil ]~
Time to be controversial:

"As it applies to slavery in the United States; the idea of reparations is that a man who has never owned nor been complicit in owning a slave owes a man who has never been nor known a slave a lot of money, simply because slavery once existed"

Re: Greased Gerbil's Quote Discussion #4 - Reparations

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:22 pm
by Juliette
What is so controversial about that? :? It's a clear analysis, that could have been phrased way more controversially. ;)
It sounds just about right.

Re: Greased Gerbil's Quote Discussion #4 - Reparations

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:52 pm
by renegadze
Thing is, if we followed the same ideal, i wouldn't just be descendants of slaves that got reparations. But throughout the course of history there would be many others that would be able to stake a claim.

How would one put a price on what people were owed? and with the current economic climate, would that price even be just?

Re: Greased Gerbil's Quote Discussion #4 - Reparations

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:25 am
by ~[ Greased Gerbil ]~
Offensive Bias wrote:What is so controversial about that? :? It's a clear analysis, that could have been phrased way more controversially. ;)
It sounds just about right.


You're right, I could've been far more controversial. I could have said this:

In the matter of reparations for the enslavement of Africans in the United States, remunerations must follow a model of fairness. Fair reparations would offer two choices:

1. The claim for monetary reparations is a concession that the relocation of slaves to the United States is not, as it stands today, of any net benefit to the claiming descendants of said slave, whom have the privilege of living in the wealthiest democracy in the world. Therefore, descendants receiving reparations should forfeit the existing 'benefit' United States citizenship afforded them as a direct by-product of slavery, and be returned to the nation of origin of their applicable ancestor after being awarded their preferred monetary benefit.

OR

2. The realisation that the relocation of said slave to the wealthier United States, although not beneficial to the slave in any way, is of significant benefit to the free descendants of said slave. As a result, the descendants of the slave have been duly compensated by virtue of their freed ancestor remaining in the United States, as opposed to being relocated to their poorer country of origin. Therefore, the demand for monetary remunerations would be akin to a demand that the same crime be paid for more than once.

Re: Greased Gerbil's Quote Discussion #4 - Reparations

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:05 am
by Juliette
I picture the conversation would be similar to this.
N: "We want money. You treated our late, great grandfather poorly and held him in slavery."
W: "Shuddup, be glad we didn't kick his black arse back to Africa, or you'd have come to us begging for the chains and our food."
N: "That's offensive."
W: "Naah."


Taking claims for reparations seriously is a crime against humanity and facilitates, fosters and feeds cultural weakness. Weakness on the part of the claimant -in that they lean on the achievements/endurances of their forebears to the point where they will continuously claim more money-, and weakness on the part of the state -in that they fail to recognise your excellent point, i.e. that a future in America was/is(?) worth more as a future in Africa.
Giving in to these claims just creates more claims. Because "OMG GRANNY WAS A SLAVE TOO!", and "OMG GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDPA too!!!!!!". Claiming reparations for one, leads to claiming reparations for more.




And let's face it. We all want free money, don't we? "**Filtered** gotta work for his dough", just like everyone else. No positive discrimination, thank you very much.

Can anyone tell me the 'rational' reasoning behind these reparations anyway?

Re: Greased Gerbil's Quote Discussion #4 - Reparations

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:15 am
by Hitchkok
Yes I can.
it is a means of reconciliation.
when the apartheid was abolished in South Africa, a "truth and reconciliation" commision was set, in which leaders of the apartheid regime gave statement regarding their part in the apartheid, and were given amnesty. they, so to say, admitted they were wrong and promised never to do it again, and consequently forgiven.
that's South Africa. in USA, as always, money talks louder than any words can.

Re: Greased Gerbil's Quote Discussion #4 - Reparations

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:51 pm
by Juliette
Hitchkok wrote:Yes I can.
it is a means of reconciliation.
when the apartheid was abolished in South Africa, a "truth and reconciliation" commision was set, in which leaders of the apartheid regime gave statement regardind their part in the apartheid, and were given amnesty. they, so to say, admitted they were wrong and promised never to do it again, and consequently forgiven.
that's South Africa. in USA, as always, money talks louder than any words can.

I can see the rationale behind 'paying up' for the living, you explained that well.
However, for harm inflicted upon the now deceased? :)

If the issue would be pressed, I believe the question that needs be answered first is "Had the Africans stayed in Africa -i.e. had 'the big bad white man' not intervened in the natural development of Africa by taking a bunch of the people worthy to be slaves (which implies some physical excellence among their people) away-, would they now have lived more prosperous lives?"
I.e. would they be willing to accept reparations in exchange for a return to Africa, or would the value of a life in the USA outweigh the value of some sentimental issue -justified or not- of their forefathers?


(Thanks for the clear explanation btw, Hitch.)

Re: Greased Gerbil's Quote Discussion #4 - Reparations

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:55 pm
by renegadze
Could jewish people (in particular) therefore expect to be able to seek reparations from descendants of the Nazi Party?

is the list not endless?

Re: Greased Gerbil's Quote Discussion #4 - Reparations

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:16 pm
by Juliette
renegadze wrote:Could jewish people (in particular) therefore expect to be able to seek reparations from descendants of the Nazi Party?

is the list not endless?
Proving the futility of the concept of reparations to individuals.



Reparations for wars between countries seem to have more merit. However, something like slavery, a pretty much accepted policy in the day, cannot be seen as an act of war or an atrocity. People who cannot defend their freedom, do not deserve their freedom. Saying "but we were forced" means you still have a mouth to speak, lungs to breathe. Quit yer moanin' and move on.

>_> A particularly harsh stance to take.

Re: Greased Gerbil's Quote Discussion #4 - Reparations

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:30 pm
by Hitchkok
Radiance, you missed the point.
the thing is, the payment is not meant to be a payment for individuals to repay them for wrongs did to them. it is a way to bring two ethnic groups toghether.
the black people in america to this day feel discriminated against, and they have justification for it. of course, caution has to be taken making a claim like that. not any black person in america is discriminated, some of it is their own doing, ans so on. but on the whole, there is still racism, and the average black person in america is worse of than the average white person. and it would be naivety to claim slavery isn't one of the roots of this situation.
the reparation is a means to acknowledge that by the govrnment and it's institutions, which are still predominently white, thereby both releiving some anger in the black community and guilt in the white one.
the thing is, policy is not detarmined by looking back. it is determined by looking forward.
and, Renegadze, you might not be aware of that, but germany actually offered to pay israel repartion. that was some 40 years ago, and had spurted great controversy in israel. while the repartions were to be based on the money and assets that were confiscated off of europe's jews, in israel it was considered a way of reconciliation, "blood money", if you will. many survivors opposed to taking money, claiming that "blood can not be bought", and that it is too soon to reconcile with germany and clean the german conscience. in the end, by the way, the reparations were accepted by the israely government.
again, the object is not to pay for the exact monitary value, because that is impossible. you can't put a price on a life of slavery, nor can you accuratly calculate the property taken away from europe's jews. what you can do is show remorse, and try to correct the consequences of your action.

Offensive Bias wrote:
However, something like slavery, a pretty much accepted policy in the day, cannot be seen as an act of war or an atrocity. People who cannot defend their freedom, do not deserve their freedom. Saying "but we were forced" means you still have a mouth to speak, lungs to breathe. Quit yer moanin' and move on.

>_> A particularly harsh stance to take.


i think you should think this over, Radi.
considering the fact many employees today are being abused by their employers, and cannot walk away, because they might not find another job, i really can't see how do you expect a slave in a country where slavery is legal to rebel. and the bolded sentence is just too close to faschism.

Re: Greased Gerbil's Quote Discussion #4 - Reparations

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:48 pm
by renegadze
Hitchkok wrote:i think you should think this over, Radi.
considering the fact many employees today are being abused by their employers, and cannot walk away, because they might not find another job, i really can't see how do you expect a slave in a country where slavery is legal to rebel. and the bolded sentence is just too close to faschism.


Although I don't necessarily agree with the way it was written, Radiance does make a point we can't overlook.....you ALWAYS have a choice. Sure as in your example if a boss abuses a worker, the worker might not find another job...but said worker still has the physical ability to walk away. They choose not to, as in their eyes it's a lesser evil then not having a job.

The choices we have are not always easy, or in some cases possible to choose between, but they are choices nonetheless

Re: Greased Gerbil's Quote Discussion #4 - Reparations

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:03 pm
by Hitchkok
renegadze wrote:
Hitchkok wrote:i think you should think this over, Radi.
considering the fact many employees today are being abused by their employers, and cannot walk away, because they might not find another job, i really can't see how do you expect a slave in a country where slavery is legal to rebel. and the bolded sentence is just too close to faschism.


Although I don't necessarily agree with the way it was written, Radiance does make a point we can't overlook.....you ALWAYS have a choice. Sure as in your example if a boss abuses a worker, the worker might not find another job...but said worker still has the physical ability to walk away. They choose not to, as in their eyes it's a lesser evil then not having a job.

The choices we have are not always easy, or in some cases possible to choose between, but they are choices nonetheless

but that's the entire point.
the worker has the phisical ability to walk away, the slave, chained and threatened by guns, have not. the choice might be to be a slave, or to die trying to escape. and if not die, live a life of fear. sure, it's A choice, but...

slavery can not be justified by "People who cannot defend their freedom, do not deserve their freedom." it is just like saying "peope who can't defend their lives do not deserve to live." and let's all agree we do not want to walk down that particular path.
Radi, here is an example for you: can raping be justified by "people who cannot defend their chastity do not deserve their chastity"?

Re: Greased Gerbil's Quote Discussion #4 - Reparations

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:10 pm
by ~[ Greased Gerbil ]~
Hitchkok wrote:again, the object is not to pay for the exact monitary value, because that is impossible. you can't put a price on a life of slavery, nor can you accuratly calculate the property taken away from europe's jews. what you can do is show remorse, and try to correct the consequences of your action.


However, it is not our own actions for which consequences must apparently be corrected, and it is not the victim that is demanding reparations.

My original argument also used the terms "complicit in owning a slave" and "nor known a slave" specifically to highlight the fact that not only are there no perpetrators or victims of slavery remaining, but also no people left who even bore witness.

Re: Greased Gerbil's Quote Discussion #4 - Reparations

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:20 pm
by Hitchkok
the thing is, the payment is not meant to be a payment for individuals to repay them for wrongs did to them. it is a way to bring two ethnic groups toghether

the average black person in america is worse of than the average white person. and it would be naivety to claim slavery isn't one of the roots of this situation.
the reparation is a means to acknowledge that by the govrnment and it's institutions, which are still predominently white, thereby both releiving some anger in the black community and guilt in the white one.
the thing is, policy is not detarmined by looking back. it is determined by looking forward.

Re: Greased Gerbil's Quote Discussion #4 - Reparations

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:55 pm
by Juliette
Pffft. Fascist? Me? Nooo.. :lol: