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since i refuse to take part in Hitchkoks thread any more, i decide to list Israeli crimes against humanity in a new thread.

starting with a fresh crime. the Irradiation of 1000's of children at the hands of the Israeli health ministry in the early 50's backed, endorsed and paid for the US Govt: http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/3998.htm

Yes, let's revisit the 50's.

Napalm, anyone? ...
Gas, anyone? ...
Landmines, anyone? ...


There are no innocent governments in the 50's. They all stank, they all reeked of corruption and the desire to advance themselves at the cost of everyone else.
So Israel may or may not have committed crimes back then. The matter is insignificant, given the propensity to criminal behaviour tied to any government attempting to combine the contradicting ideals of a democratic society with progress and competitiveness.

(Besides.. what's 1000 children. What was the world pop in the 50's? 3 billion? Ay, heartless, I know. Can't be obscured by emotion in these things really, lest we would have to accuse and blame everyone equally. But then, where would be the fun in that.

Rational argument: You have to figure out what this and that does to those and us, don't you? If your enemy bombs you with a nuke, you'd better know what the consequences are beforehand. Same thing with considering to bomb your enemies. Have to make sure you do the kind of damage you want to do, or you're just wasting precious uranium.

Emotional argument - inherently flawed: Good lord! We're irradiating millions today. So what if a few were irradiated before we knew what dosages were sufficient. Just be happy you weren't among their number.)


In any case, pointing out the flaws of one specific nation is insignificant. You need to look at everyone, not just focus on some country you hate deeply. That tends to both obscure the rational arguments, and makes you prone to misconceptions in regard to responsibility and significance of your own argument.

Then again.. you knew all this. So why this thread?

Offensive Bias wrote:(Besides.. what's 1000 children. What was the world pop in the 50's? 3 billion? Ay, heartless, I know.

Umm...

so if some government killed your child you wouldnt care? they are but 1 child.

fourtwozero wrote:

Offensive Bias wrote:(Besides.. what's 1000 children. What was the world pop in the 50's? 3 billion? Ay, heartless, I know.

Umm...

so if some government killed your child you wouldnt care? they are but 1 child.

At that point, I would be unable to render a rational judgement. I would expect anyone else to make a proper rational argument, while understanding my emotional distress at such time.
Of course I'll hit anyone who says "It's just 1 child, meh" in the face. I can be aggressive when emotionally unbalanced. And while I believe one may never recover from such an emotional trauma, I do believe the ones not directly affected will. As a logical consequence, to continue basic function within society, one will have to redirect their emotional distress into .. say .. art? Make paintings, or talk about it, a lot. It is likely the healing process of such an individual trauma will take more time than your life lasts.

So yes, I can see the emotional consequences for the relatives of said 1000. However, I believe such emotional consequences to be inferior to the good of the nation. And as science teaches us, even a failed experiment is a successful experiment, in that it teaches us we were erroneous in setting up our experiment.

Offensive Bias wrote:Yes, let's revisit the 50's.

Napalm, anyone? ...
Gas, anyone? ...
Landmines, anyone? ...


There are no innocent governments in the 50's. They all stank, they all reeked of corruption and the desire to advance themselves at the cost of everyone else.
So Israel may or may not have committed crimes back then. The matter is insignificant, given the propensity to criminal behaviour tied to any government attempting to combine the contradicting ideals of a democratic society with progress and competitiveness.

(Besides.. what's 1000 children. What was the world pop in the 50's? 3 billion? Ay, heartless, I know. Can't be obscured by emotion in these things really, lest we would have to accuse and blame everyone equally. But then, where would be the fun in that.

Rational argument: You have to figure out what this and that does to those and us, don't you? If your enemy bombs you with a nuke, you'd better know what the consequences are beforehand. Same thing with considering to bomb your enemies. Have to make sure you do the kind of damage you want to do, or you're just wasting precious uranium.

Emotional argument - inherently flawed: Good lord! We're irradiating millions today. So what if a few were irradiated before we knew what dosages were sufficient. Just be happy you weren't among their number.)


In any case, pointing out the flaws of one specific nation is insignificant. You need to look at everyone, not just focus on some country you hate deeply. That tends to both obscure the rational arguments, and makes you prone to misconceptions in regard to responsibility and significance of your own argument.

Then again.. you knew all this. So why this thread?

before i give a serious comment to this thread, i would like to point out that ofensive bias' views are her own, and do not reflect neither on the Israely government nor any Israely citizen.
for some reason she chose to take an extreme right, almost faschist, tone this past few month. bad offensive, bad.

what she states in this qoute is not relevent to this thread, as i will soon show.

Yes, do show. I'll congratulate you again.
(And I do sincerely doubt you can say my views do not reflect those of "any Israeli citizen".. *grin* You realise you're saying absolutely no Israeli citizen would agree with me, right? And that it would only take me to find one single person to make your comment look silly, right? *grin* Not that it's a concern of mine. Agree, disagree, argue.. you're welcome to.)

Offensive Bias wrote:Yes, do show. I'll congratulate you again.
(And I do sincerely doubt you can say my views do not reflect those of "any Israeli citizen".. *grin* You realise you're saying absolutely no Israeli citizen would agree with me, right? And that it would only take me to find one single person to make your comment look silly, right? *grin* Not that it's a concern of mine. Agree, disagree, argue.. you're welcome to.)

two ways to counter that:
1) the formalistic ("theoretic") argument:
i said: "do not reflect neither on the Israely government nor any Israely citizen.", not "do not reflect neither those of the Israely government nor any Israely citizen." meaning: your views are not basis enough to infer on those of the Israely government, or on those of any individual Israely citizen. subtle, i know, but thats why we have reading comprehension lessons in school. that is, by the way, the meaning i intented for the paragraph.

2) the statistic ("empirical") argument:
i live in israel for over 23 years. i have travelled the length and bredth of it, met people of any sector in the israely society. be it rural communities (kibbutzim and moshavim, if you are familiar with the terms), large cities, secular, religious, and ultra-orthodox jews, in high school i had arab students in my class, and as roomates (i was in a boarding school), i served in the army with beduins, druze, mild left wing supporters, mild right wing supporters, extreme left, extreme right, you name it. i have never came across anyone that will support killing thousands of children as an experiment. no, i have not met every single Israely citizen. but i dare you to try and find one that will support an experiment that will result in the death of thousands of children.
good luck.

Hitchkok wrote:

Offensive Bias wrote:Yes, let's revisit the 50's.

Napalm, anyone? ...
Gas, anyone? ...
Landmines, anyone? ...


There are no innocent governments in the 50's. They all stank, they all reeked of corruption and the desire to advance themselves at the cost of everyone else.
So Israel may or may not have committed crimes back then. The matter is insignificant, given the propensity to criminal behaviour tied to any government attempting to combine the contradicting ideals of a democratic society with progress and competitiveness.

(Besides.. what's 1000 children. What was the world pop in the 50's? 3 billion? Ay, heartless, I know. Can't be obscured by emotion in these things really, lest we would have to accuse and blame everyone equally. But then, where would be the fun in that.

Rational argument: You have to figure out what this and that does to those and us, don't you? If your enemy bombs you with a nuke, you'd better know what the consequences are beforehand. Same thing with considering to bomb your enemies. Have to make sure you do the kind of damage you want to do, or you're just wasting precious uranium.

Emotional argument - inherently flawed: Good lord! We're irradiating millions today. So what if a few were irradiated before we knew what dosages were sufficient. Just be happy you weren't among their number.)


In any case, pointing out the flaws of one specific nation is insignificant. You need to look at everyone, not just focus on some country you hate deeply. That tends to both obscure the rational arguments, and makes you prone to misconceptions in regard to responsibility and significance of your own argument.

Then again.. you knew all this. So why this thread?

before i give a serious comment to this thread, i would like to point out that ofensive bias' views are her own, and do not reflect neither on the Israely government nor any Israely citizen.
for some reason she chose to take an extreme right, almost faschist, tone this past few month. bad offensive, bad.

what she states in this qoute is not relevent to this thread, as i will soon show.

for once, me and you agree!


P.S

i should have stated from the outset that i view the vast majority of Govts as criminal NOT just the Israeli Govt.
i also do not support the notion that most Israeli civilians are as guilty as their Govt, the only thing the Israeli Civilians are guilty of is blindly accepting their Govts explanation of crimes committed..

that's also true of most citizens the world over!

P.S 2, this is not a hate thread and i do not endorse ANY hatred.

I'm not sure if blaming all the citizens of the world for accepting the their Govts is a good thing since you'r one of them and probably even worse since you know what its done... I'm not about to comment in this thread since you'r al biast and as far as I can see most of the posts are irrelevant and turning this into a powder keg...

no mate, your wrong...i also blame myself since i am obviously part of the masses!


but that's besides the point of this thread...wouldn't you agree?

[KMA]Avenger wrote:no mate, your wrong...i also blame myself since i am obviously part of the masses!


but that's besides the point of this thread...wouldn't you agree?

Agreed.
I think ANY crimes that have religion as a motivation are the worse in the world... Taking God's name like that is something i can't stand and condemn with all my word and heart. What both Israel and the Hammas are doing is wrong any side you take it, killing people is bad, killing in the name God is the worse thing i can imagine. I can agree Israel have had a rough time with mostly everyone in the world but i also know that the US have been throwing money and supplies at them and indorse their policies as against "fanatics" but are in fact making their little pad towards greener oil pastures in the long run, longer that the Iraq occupation... Whats sad is that no one cares to look past their own piece of land and helo their neighbour rather they blame and point ye old finger...

thanks for understanding...however, your last post is still unrelated to this topic...

i spose the topic could also be expanded to include other nations since there is no way ANY nation can engage in international crimes or crimes against humanity without the major powers approval, or the UN's approval for that matter.

i've changed the topic title so its not so biased, even though i have started by pointing fingers at Israel, i will include other nations crimes against humanity for obvious reasons, and to reflect a fair debate.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:i've changed the topic title so its not so biased, even though i have started by pointing fingers at Israel, i will include other nations crimes against humanity for obvious reasons, and to reflect a fair debate.

*appreciates gesture* Thanks, G.



So what do we argue about these crimes against humanity? The propaganda surrounding their presentation? Their (im)morality? Their function? Their roots in revisionist history?

no probs. well, i thought better of it and decided we wouldn't get any kind of sensible debate and people will just see hatred were there is none to be implied.

a good example is the US, UK and Israel (to name just 3) all 3 nations have committed CAH (crimes against humanity) and war-crimes of varying degrees of severity in modern times and yet, no punishment or so much as an investigation is ever carried out. at best, some lowly private/s are smacked on the hands, dishonourably discharged and or sent to prison, without so much as a look into where their orders came from.

anyways, the above is nothing more than a statement. discuss as you please, or post what you find along the topics lines.