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over the past 30+ years i have noticed and seen a switch of the national and global economy from being industrially based to service based. this has happened mainly because of globalisation, unification and treaty's such as those we have in Europe, and those of the Americas like NAFTA and GATT.

i've witnessed first hand and i'm horrified how entire industry's of nations have been wiped out or packed up and shipped over seas where wages are cheaper, taxes are lower and local laws (such as all the green laws) are more lenient.
this has had a disastrous affect on industry and jobs. 1 such case is the UK's oldest steel mill has been shut down and shipped to India because of the madness that is CO2 emissions taxes. this has resulted in the loss of 1700 jobs. another couple of examples are 1, the UK's fishing industry is more or less non-existent. and 2, our clothing industry (of which is my original trade, i was a wedding and evening ware cutter) has been obliterated and shipped to other European and Asian country's, there are just way to many examples and its truly sickening to having to read about them.

and what about the US, wasn't Detroit known as the motor city?! you only have to look what's happened to General Motors for yet 1 more example of deliberate destruction of industry...

i haven't even touched on the local economic downsides to all these treaties, as well as our jobless recovery...

for those that dont know what a jobless recovery is, its when banks, insurance and other such firms are making HUGE profits, while people are losing there jobs.

i also haven't touched on so called "green jobs". the Govts own figures prove that for every 1 green job that is created, 2 industrially based jobs are destroyed.

when i look at people stuck in offices i just feel sick!

anyways, discuss....

oh come on...you mean you don't support cheaper less efficient standards when things are produced outside of a first world country? needless to say, the utter lack of societal disgust on this topic is mind-boggling. The theft of entire career paths due to cheaper labor costs has not only led to a loss of a companies structure, but has also led to tax increases because everything has to be transported further driving up prices...a perfect example of this would be Detroit...once one of the most industrialized and stable cities in terms of jobs, and materials produced, has fallen into disarray despite being the former Capital of American Industry...it went from a thriving city to the less than reputable place it is now...a fix is necessary but how best to fix the switch, and is an entirely industrial society better?

Agreed. It is odd how so few people protest this.
Made numb by the 'recession'.. no one will know when these things became 'normal', when we look back in 20 years.

Angnoch wrote:oh come on...you mean you don't support cheaper less efficient standards when things are produced outside of a first world country?

no need for me to answer that one.

Angnoch wrote:needless to say, the utter lack of societal disgust on this topic is mind-boggling.

very true. i see it EXACTLY the same way. modern society fills me with disgust and contempt because of the sheer amount of apathy and stupidity.

Angnoch wrote:a fix is necessary but how best to fix the switch,

that's easy, get rid of all these treaties and bring back sovereignty as well as a sense of community...haven't you noticed how fractured communities and the greater society within a nation has become because of all these open border policies?

Angnoch wrote:and is an entirely industrial society better?

you cant have an economy based solely on industry, and i wouldn't advocate for such an economy. as RepliMagni says, you do need secondary sectors.

Offensive Bias wrote:Agreed. It is odd how so few people protest this.

indeed, why are so few people protesting this?!

well the answer is simple, education (not education as in schooling) and the fact the middle class has been wiped out. those of the middle class that still remain are to worried about how to pay the next bill or worried about losing their job or worried about the promotion that always seems to be coming but never actually arrives etc etc etc...see the pattern?

We live in a post-industrial society - it will take something quite remarkable (and potentially disastrous) to turn back the hands of time. I think that any economy which is heavy in the tertiary sector is at the very least vulnerable, if not downright unsustainable. Without primary and secondary sectors, if a major war was to occur, or particularly harsh protectionist trade policies, we would be left out in the cold.

That being said, who would man these primary and secondary sectors? Given the governments insistence on qualifications, given the high number of university graduates, given the higher expectations of society; what parent would want their child to become a miner? a lorry driver? a farmer? a metal worker? Some blue collar jobs will always be important: mechanics, electrians, plumbers, but most of the other non-essentials have fallen by the wayside, and I cannot see there being a resurgence in them.

RepliMagni wrote:That being said, who would man these primary and secondary sectors? Given the governments insistence on qualifications, given the high number of university graduates, given the higher expectations of society; what parent would want their child to become a miner? a lorry driver? a farmer? a metal worker? Some blue collar jobs will always be important: mechanics, electricians, plumbers, but most of the other non-essentials have fallen by the wayside, and I cannot see there being a resurgence in them.

if the money, working conditions was as it should be, and if the right amount of technology was applied then there are people who would fill the jobs such as those you mention above...

once upon a time people would ask me what i did for a living, when i told them i was a dress cutter (the rag trade) specialising in high class evening war and wedding dresses, men and women who had FAAAAR better paying jobs than me would gasp and applaud me, after a few years when the rag trade started to decline in the UK i used hang my head in shame when people asked what i did...nowadays i tell people that i worked in the rag trade they look at me with puzzlement because they have no idea what the rag trade is....

anyways, that's not really relevant to the topic, it just goes to show how things have changed.

Trouble is its cheaper to outsource to other countries....food, fuel, manufacturing, production....virtually everything is cheaper to do abroad: there are less taxes, cheaper (or no) minimum wages, less restrictions on working conditions, etc.....It all comes down to the profit margin, which is bigger if its done abroad. There are only two ways to counteract it: employ our own protectionist policies or else lower our own wages/taxes/working conditions to compete with foreign companies, both of which would be like cutting our nose off to spite our face.

Its like the guy from Auf Wiedersehn Pet said when he brought over a bunch of foreign labourers: "you want English? Scratch balls, drink tea, cost three times as much?!!"