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The best I can tell is that the ignorance on "our side" is that Christians believe witchcraft = evil; it is a part of their religion, so no matter how stupid we believe that assumption to be, it is a religious standpoint. Which makes the entire debate one centered around religion. The problem with religious debates is that you will never be able to change anyone's mind so it goes around in circles until both sides start feeling the redundant pattern of the argument. No one will concede the viewpoint of the other side of the debate, so it is pointless.

Religious stand point is all viewpoints on witchcraft.

That is essentially what I remember about our "conversation".
Ah!
In that case, this is locked. It has degenerated into a debate using myth and plebeian tradition of self-deceit as foundation for arguments.. we cannot have that.

This forces the question, why wasnt it locked when it was first made? It was obvious that it was going to be a religious debate.
...

And going by this logic we would have to lock half the threads in the debate forum.



and to answer some things which i didnt get to

[spoiler]

My comment about it being inherently evil was from the perspective of the EverythingIsTerrible group, not my own opinion. Nothing is inherently evil.

Try Satan/Demons and man can be considered inherently evil.

Explain to me which parts are unjust or unwarranted. Pagans go to war just like Christians do, when they join their national military, but they have never created a war that was fueled by religious beliefs. What is not true about the general view of pagan beliefs? Do you know many pagans or their beliefs, besides getting the idea from media that is obviously anti-paganist in nature? Yes, judgment is inevitable, but one can try to fight against passing uninformed and unwarranted judgments. Your third argument/question is incredibly arrogant. I know pagan beliefs because I have studied them, been a part of them, and know many pagans (most in Wicca-related spiritual beliefs).

War in the flesh is man, maybe in the name of religion, but it is still man. Was the crusades fueld by religious beliefs? No, It was political and human greed that started it. Religion was just used as an excuse. Take for example the modern day war in iraq, Afghanistan. There is two sides, People fighting because they dont want the americans in their country stuffing everything up. and the extremist who are following the teachings of islam. THat being said the Christian doctrine does not condone war, as it is clearly stated


For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12

that being said

Here you go agreeing with a ^sarcasticcomment on my part. So you honestly believe that any book where witchcraft is used, assuming by more than just the bad guys, is an evil book? Just because there is witchcraft?

Just because 'good' condones and uses witchcraft.

So sandman what do you think the punishment should be for those who practice witchcraft?

[/quote]

Not my place to say.

I do not believe in book banning, for any reason. Also, I find it highly interesting and amusing that the Koran is supposedly a fascist doctrine. And I do not believe that Harry Potter is anywhere near well-written enough to be able to damage anyone who reads it. You throw extremist around about all of these HP fans and other extremists in the world. But all you have shown me is how extremist you are in your personal/world views.

I guess you are totally fine with neo nazis with their Mein Kampf spreading racist bigotry giving hitler salutes and marching around. To the point where there is a nazi party in your country comprised of former KKK members. Totality understandable.

Not mentioning the fact Islamic countries forbid the practice of other religions, well most religions.[/spoiler]

Lucifer is inherently good and chooses to not follow the rules of god.

I'd like to take this opportunity and tell you about what was a young boy named Evghenie Rodionov. He was a Russian soldier that on his birthday, 23 of May 1996 was beheaded by Chechen soldiers because he didn't want to take off the cross he had on his neck and become a Muslim. He was savagely beaten for 3 months, ending with his martyrdom on his birthday. He was since sanctified by the Russian Orthodox Church and has performed many miracles on soldiers and common Russian people.

Onto what Mister Sandman wrote. The first of the 10 Commandments is:

1.I am the Lord your God.You shall have no other gods before me.

Witchcraft is praying to something else than God to fulfill your needs, desires and so on, further more using pagan ritual condoned by both Catholic and Orthodox Churches. The bad influence of HP, in my mind is because it produces another world full of witchcraft to which kids and some adults are more accustomed too even more than the 10 Commandments. Something that drives you farther from God is to me, a horrible thing. And from this lets move on to the next point. My saying that has probably sealed my being extremist and a zealot in some people's eyes. That is not the fact, and here i explain.

I have never and will NEVER point the finger at someone's religion of faith, whatever it is. Having freedom isn't the same as people thing, being able to mock and ridicule someone else's beliefs or faith. Its not even in the same ballpark. By situation its like making fun of someone having red hair or being good at math rather than sports, its ridiculous. Having the RESPECT and CONSIDERATION towards another man is tolerance and understanding. Freedom was conceived on the idea that man would be respectful and considerate towards fellow man. As for myself, i am fervent in my own beliefs and one core belief that all true Christians adhere to is kindness and tolerance.

S.M.B wrote:Lucifer is inherently good and chooses to not follow the rules of god.

And how did you reach that conclusion?

S.M.B wrote:Lucifer is inherently good and chooses to not follow the rules of god.

that's just pure nonsense on so many levels.
a) allowing for the religious point of view, following the rules of god IS being good. it is not a prerequisite for being good, it is not an effect of being good, it is one and the same.
b) if something is "inherently" good, it doesn't "choose" to follow a moral code. it just does. "where the atoned walk, angels fear to tread". sounds familiar? because a person who atoned is not "inherently" good, yet he chose to be. and that means so much more (again, allowing for the religious point of view).

I normally NEVER get into religious talks, but that point makes me want to

Ashu wrote:

S.M.B wrote:Lucifer is inherently good and chooses to not follow the rules of god.

And how did you reach that conclusion?

Did God not create the heaven, the earth, and all the Angels? Was Lucifer not an angel? Did God not create Lucifer? So did God create an inherently wicked being? or did Lucifer change and become wicked after his creation?

If Lucifer was not inherently good the God purposefully created evil and let it loose on the world, meaning Eve was not to blame, nor was man as a whole.


***This is just a thought process brought on by the remark made, nothing more***

Lore wrote:I normally NEVER get into religious talks, but that point makes me want to

Ashu wrote:

S.M.B wrote:Lucifer is inherently good and chooses to not follow the rules of god.

And how did you reach that conclusion?

Did God not create the heaven, the earth, and all the Angels? Was Lucifer not an angel? Did God not create Lucifer? So did God create an inherently wicked being? or did Lucifer change and become wicked after his creation?

If Lucifer was not inherently good the God purposefully created evil and let it loose on the world, meaning Eve was not to blame, nor was man as a whole.


***This is just a thought process brought on by the remark made, nothing more***

actually, there is a passage in the bible that states that good and evil are both within God...


someone more knowledgeable about the bible and its contents may want to pick up the baton at this point, so to speak.

Mister Sandman wrote:This forces the question, why wasnt it locked when it was first made? It was obvious that it was going to be a religious debate.
...

And going by this logic we would have to lock half the threads in the debate forum.

It's absolutely ridiculous that the topic was locked. It shows that certain people are unable to handle intelligent discussions on some issues.

Lore wrote:I normally NEVER get into religious talks, but that point makes me want to

Same here, Lore.

Lore wrote:

Ashu wrote:

S.M.B wrote:Lucifer is inherently good and chooses to not follow the rules of god.

And how did you reach that conclusion?

Did God not create the heaven, the earth, and all the Angels? Was Lucifer not an angel? Did God not create Lucifer? So did God create an inherently wicked being? or did Lucifer change and become wicked after his creation?

If Lucifer was not inherently good the God purposefully created evil and let it loose on the world, meaning Eve was not to blame, nor was man as a whole.


***This is just a thought process brought on by the remark made, nothing more***

Beautiful post, Lore, simply beautiful.

or we can alll accept the amount of flawed storytelling in christianity, aswell as all other religions, become agnostic and focus on moving forward as a race of people that do not need to be divided by a belief class in some intangible nonsense, and treat others idfferently.

apart form the not so intellectually helpful point religion is all bollocks (rants about deitys + evil etc), it serves only to divide people. some might say the cgurch unites, but if we didnt have the religion im sure they could be united at the sports club or volunteer station

Lore wrote:I normally NEVER get into religious talks, but that point makes me want to

Ashu wrote:

S.M.B wrote:Lucifer is inherently good and chooses to not follow the rules of god.

And how did you reach that conclusion?

Did God not create the heaven, the earth, and all the Angels? Was Lucifer not an angel? Did God not create Lucifer? So did God create an inherently wicked being? or did Lucifer change and become wicked after his creation?

If Lucifer was not inherently good the God purposefully created evil and let it loose on the world, meaning Eve was not to blame, nor was man as a whole.


***This is just a thought process brought on by the remark made, nothing more***

regarding the "blame" point:

1) there is a contradiction between the concepts of "reward & punishment", and the idea of god being omnipotent & omniescient.
in short, the thing is this: if god is omnipotent, can he not effectively force you to follow his rules?
and if he is omniscient, he already knows if you will or will not follow them.
in both cases, you are clearly not to blame for disregarding God's rules (for you clearly have no free will), and so cannot be justly punished.

2) in christianity, this is quite simply solveable, sinch there are very few rules to follow, and in many cases piety is it's own proof. you believe in the holy trinity and accept it as your saviour, and that's enough. there is no acttion involved, just a decision.
in judaism, however, there are 613 "rules" to follow. disregarding each will result in a less than perfect heaven for the individual (although there is a concept of atonement, which i will not expand on here). here, the problem arises in all of it's acuity, and is further complicated by an old talmudic verse, which reads "all is written, and the permission is given"
many tried to give this explanation:
while god is omnipotent, he chooses not to force people to follow his rules, and allows for free choice (for humans).

3) angels are commonly regarded as beings of pure good. an avatar of god's will, if you like. as said, god is omnipotent. it is reasonable to assume that where he out to create an "inherently good" being, he would have succeeded (as angels are not mortals, the choice to allow for free will does not apply to them).

4) free choich when only one option is presented is not truly free choich.
furthermore, every person is responsible for his own action.
if you accept that god created everything, and renounced his control over free will, it seems reasonable that he created the forces of evil with the same limitation. therfore, having being tempted by a force of evil, be it Lucifer, Sammael, Satan, or what ever you want to call it, is no justification for sinning.

for these reasons, i find it much more plausible to assume god has created Lucifer with the knowledge that he will some day turn (indeed, be made to turn), and will act as a force of evil (why? "god works in mysterious ways", does he not?), than to assume an angel of the highest choir suddenly developed a free will. and guess what, as he has no direct power over your actions, you are still to blame for your sins.

Hitchkok wrote:for these reasons, i find it much more plausible to assume god has created Lucifer with the knowledge that he will some day turn (indeed, be made to turn), and will act as a force of evil (why? "god works in mysterious ways", does he not?), than to assume an angel of the highest choir suddenly developed a free will. and guess what, as he has no direct power over your actions, you are still to blame for your sins.

It wasn't just the one, but a third of all angels, so....

Dr. House wrote:

Hitchkok wrote:for these reasons, i find it much more plausible to assume god has created Lucifer (and what ever angels followed him) with the knowledge that he will some day turn (indeed, be made to turn), and will act as a force of evil (why? "god works in mysterious ways", does he not?), than to assume an angel of the highest choir suddenly developed a free will. and guess what, as he has no direct power over your actions, you are still to blame for your sins.

It wasn't just the one, but a third of all angels, so....

so.... what?
look, i just fixed it to include any amount of angels, with no change to the argument.

The fact that others chose to follow him would seem to suggest that they did indeed have free will.

Dr. House wrote:The fact that others chose to follow him would seem to suggest that they did indeed have free will.

is that a fact?
or an assumption you make?
my explanation still seems more reasonable to me.
but hey, don't let my flawless logic get in the way of your guiltless hedonisem.

Lore wrote:I normally NEVER get into religious talks, but that point makes me want to

Ashu wrote:

S.M.B wrote:Lucifer is inherently good and chooses to not follow the rules of god.

And how did you reach that conclusion?

Did God not create the heaven, the earth, and all the Angels? Was Lucifer not an angel? Did God not create Lucifer? So did God create an inherently wicked being? or did Lucifer change and become wicked after his creation?

If Lucifer was not inherently good the God purposefully created evil and let it loose on the world, meaning Eve was not to blame, nor was man as a whole.


***This is just a thought process brought on by the remark made, nothing more***

Ty Lore. Tho i wanted that from Byrnes...