Sex before Sacrament

[Thriller]

I'm not sure what your getting at with that post. Are you agreeing with my premise or refuting it?

I mean, i did read the whole thing and this was the conclusion i reached,

It wasn't easy either, it's really preachy and the main character can be a real bastard sometimes.

[Mister Sandman]

[spoiler=]

@ sandman

maybe interpretation is the wrong word. The quote dileberately took the start of the next parable and sliped it into the other to suggest something that isn't in the text when read in it's proper form.

i was being nice, misleading would have been better word but i can think of others.


Polygamy in the bible:

Abraham, Jacob, Esau, Ajamil.... all had lots of wives
Genesis 16:1-4
Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. And Sarai ... gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived.

Genesis 25;6
But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

ect, ect

[/spoiler]

I would like to use a word you said.

Misleading.
How nice of you to only look that the old testament.

What im getting at, is you are not portraying the complete picture.

You state examples of Polygamy as 'evidence' which is cleverly portrayed however, it is Misleading. You missed out alot, perhaps all, of the contextualisation, and the meanings behind the verses you just quoted.

I implore you to re-read.
Or would you rather me contextualise and give you the bible study on
Abram and Sarai ?

All mortal sins are clearly outlined within the text.

Sure there are alot of stories which can be interpreted to find their moral. ex.jonah and the wale, Abraham and issaac, jesus and the poor fishermen.

but all sins are made perfectly clear. sex before marriage itsn't one of them. And no text can be brought forward that says otherwise

There is no Hebrew or Greek word used in the Bible that precisely refers to sex before marriage.

However, the Bible undeniably condemns adultery and sexual immorality, but is sex before marriage considered sexually immoral?

I will like to refer to the letters paul wrote to the Corinthians on marriage.


[spoiler=1 Corinthians 7 :1-7]1Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

3Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

4The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

5Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

7For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.

9But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.[/spoiler]

In this verse, Paul states that marriage is the “cure” for sexual immorality. First Corinthians 7:2 is essentially saying that, because people cannot control themselves and so many are having immoral sex outside of marriage, people should get married. Then they can fulfill their passions in a moral way.

Sex before marriage is included in the biblical definition of sexual immorality. There are numerous Scriptures that declare sex before marriage to be a sin (Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 6:13, 18; 10:8; 2 Corinthians 12:21; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:3; Jude 7).

Hebrews 13:4,
Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

i still dont see anything that says no sex before your married?

it just says avoid sexual immorality, which i take to mean no sex with another mans wife no sex with other men and no sex with animals

'Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body, but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body" I Corinthians 6:18

Fornication is defined by: sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.

Good enough for you?

[J I X]

1 Corinthians 7 :1-7 | -
1Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

3Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

4The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

5Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

so still not against the rules, he would just like it if you did what he said

7For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.

9But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.


In this verse, Paul states that marriage is the “cure” for sexual immorality. First Corinthians 7:2 is essentially saying that, because people cannot control themselves and so many are having immoral sex outside of marriage, people should get married. Then they can fulfill their passions in a moral way.

i take this to mean if your gay or you prefer animals, you should marry to try and safe your soul

Sex before marriage is included in the biblical definition of sexual immorality. There are numerous Scriptures that declare sex before marriage to be a sin (Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 6:13, 18; 10:8; 2 Corinthians 12:21; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:3; Jude 7).

Hebrews 13:4,
Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

i re read some of the ones you posted above and i seen nothing saying sex before marrage was a sin

as for the bottom half that tallks about marriage and thats not the topic

[Mister Sandman]

Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.....


Read ^^^



6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

Read this in the context.

He is talking to the Corinthians about marriage.

I.E

read the verse before

5Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

Or

[spoiler=]5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command.[/spoiler]


In the Christian ideal, spouses must not sexually deprive partners except by mutual consent for a time, and only for special religious purposes: that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Throughout the Old Testament, times of special religious devotion, such as to prayer and fasting, included sexual abstinence (Exod. 19:15; 1 Sam. 21:4-5). Here Paul made it apparent that such practices were to be carried over into the New Testament as well.

Once the time of special religious devotion is over, the couple must return to normalcy so that Satan will not tempt them to be involved in illicit sexual relations. Paul may well have had in mind the prostitution rampant in Corinth (6:12-20). The longer couples abstain from sex, the greater the risk that one or the other partner will lose self-control and fall into sexual immorality with someone other than his or her spouse.

In allowing couples to abstain from sexual relations for a time by mutual consent, Paul made a concession. He by no means intended to command periods of abstinence. Rather, he commanded that they not deprive each other, making exception only for periods of devotion to prayer.

For your enlightenment.

i take this to mean if your gay or you prefer animals, you should marry to try and safe your soul

No, it was to say, if you are lusting.

As we continue the reading, you can understand...

8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.


Which reinforces verse 2.

'Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body, but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body" I Corinthians 6:18

Fornication is defined by: sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.

[Thriller]

Your just talking on what Thomas Aquinas had to say on the matter, (poorly aswell)

No where in that passage does it forbid sex out of weldlock not done out of lust.

Using the word "fornication" in the text is actually misleading and revealing

porneia is the greek word used in the orginal text and it translates to; sexual sin.

In reference to the rest of the bible, sexual sin is clearly outlined in Leviticus(bestiality, homosexuality, adultery)

Fornication comes from latin verb fornicare. It was transposed to give credibility for the Roman idea that it was good to have sex after marriage; the very same Roman practise i outlined in my original post.

I was suprised how well that tied together... but it's all true.

You admitted in your last reply that no where in th bible does it mention sex before marriage as being wrong; that's because that idea is no where to found in the bible. It was vaguely inserted upon translation to give credibility to roman customs.. and that is just an example of arrogant men wanting to put words in Gods mouth.

On polygamy.

In the early bible god accepts it, In the new testatment it is questionable whether or not it is aloud.

But clearly god did not punish his followers for taking part in the practice in the old testament. Those excerpts in the New testament that seem to speak against it are again probably Roman ideas trying to get pushed into the empires new religeon.

[jedi~tank]

Your just taling on what Thomas Aquinas had to say on the matter, (poorly aswell)

No where in that passage does it forbid sex out of weldlock not done out of lust.

Using the word "fornication" in the text is actually misleading and revealing

porneia is the greek word used in the orginal text and it translates to; sexual sin.

In reference to the rest of the bible, sexual sin is clearly outlined in Leviticus(bestiality, homosexuality, adultery)

Fornication comes from latin verb fornicare. It was transposed to give credibility for the Roman idea that it was good to have sex after marriage; the very same Roman practise i outlined in my original post.

I was suprised how well that tied together... but it's all true.

You admitted in your last reply that no where in th bible does it mention sex before marriage as being wrong; that's because that idea is no where to found in the bible. It was vaguely inserted upon translation to give credibility to roman customs.. and that is just an example of arrogant men wanting to put words in Gods mouth.

On polygamy.

In the early bible god accepts it, In the new testatment it is questionable whether or not it is aloud.

But clearly god did not punish his followers for taking part in the practice in the old testament. Those excerpts in the New testament that seem to speak against it are again probably Roman ideas trying to get pushed into the empires new religeon.

Before the law he did not, after the law..better look again

[Thriller]

Before the law he did not, after the law..better look again

You're talking about Moses and the Sermon on the mount right?

[jedi~tank]

Well the Law was given to the Hebrews during the Exodus, remember the 10 commandments. So in effect there was no Thou shalt not from Genesis until then.

[Thriller]

Well the Law was given to the Hebrews during the Exodus, remember the 10 commandments. So in effect there was no Thou shalt not from Genesis until then.

So Leviticus then?

Show we anywhere in there where it forbids polygamy.

[Mister Sandman]

Examples of polygamy in the bible does not = evidence that the bible supports it.

Your Abram example, in trying to prove that the bible is pro-polygamy is ludicrous. Re-read the whole story not some verses.

You might realise the reason, Abram name changes, Sarai name changes.

Oh and just so you know Abram had 1 wife.

A Handmaid isnt a wife.

Concubines arn't technically wives either.

And I do believe something to a very famous city about 3 chapters after Genesis 16.

porneiva porneia: 1) Fornication, **Filtered**; any kind of unlawful immoral sexual activity, illicit sexual intercourse which includes adultery, homosexuality, lesbianism, sex with animals, sex outside of marriage, sex with relatives, and sex with someone not a partner in marriage. 2) it is also refers to worshiping or having communication with unclean spirits or so called god’s spiritually other than Jesus Christ, spiritual fornication, the worship of idols, eating something you know has been sacrificed to an idol.
Noun: feminine singular nominative, [spoiler=]porneia
1. illicit sexual intercourse
1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
2. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
3. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,
2. metaph. the worship of idols
1. of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4202[/spoiler]

moiceiva moikeia: adultery, a married person having sexual intercourse with someone other than their mate. Noun: feminine singular nominative; from moiceuvw to commit adultery

On sex out of marriage:

Exodus 22:16 "And if a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife."

Leviticus 20:10 "If there is a man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, one who commits adultery with his friend’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."'


And once you are married, having sex outside of wedlock is considered adultery.

So even if sex before marriage isnt wrong, you;
a. Are going to get married to that person you slept with.
b. Are technically committing adultery as she should be engaged to she lost her virginity to.


Matthew 19:4-6
And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made[a]them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be [b]joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?[c] 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Note: It doesnt say wives.

[Thriller]

Those definitions for porneia and moiceiva are wrong.

Probably christian in nature.

The greeks did not beleive it was wrong to have sex before marriage. SO why would that act be included in their deffinition of their word for sexual immorality....

it's not.

Again that's a case of someone trying to interject his own bias into the script to give his opinion credibility.

In acient times whne two people got hitched. The women was the only given a ring. Concecrating her to him. The male was still free to take on other wives to have more children. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had multiple wives. (Abraham had concubines but two more wives: Hagar (the mother of Ishmael) and Ktura .-- to answer your question)

Deuteronomy 21:15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated

:

Judges 8:30 And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten: for he had many wives.
And his concubine that was in Shechem, she also bare him a son, whose name he called Abimelech.
8:32 And Gideon the son of Joash died in a good old age, and was buried in the sepulchre of Joash his father, in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
8:33 And it came to pass, as soon as Gideon was dead, that the children of Israel turned again, and went a whoring after Baalim, and made Baalberith their god.

Also It is true that there was a trandition that followed back in ancient Jew time concerning marrying the women you slept with. The male was obliged to accept marriage if the women or the women's father insisted upon it. If neither one them wanted the union though, the male was not obliged to marry her.

[Mister Sandman]

Those definitions for porneia and moiceiva are wrong.

Probably christian in nature.

The greeks did not beleive it was wrong to have sex before marriage. SO why would that act be included in their deffinition of their word for sexual immorality....

it's not.

Maybe your definition is less correct.

Again that's a case of someone trying to interject his own bias into the script to give his opinion credibility.

As with you.

In acient times whne two people got hitched. The women was the only given a ring. Concecrating her to him. The male was still free to take on other wives to have more children. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had multiple wives. (Abraham had concubines but two more wives: Hagar (the mother of Ishmael) and Ktura .-- to answer your question)

Keturah*

However, this does not prove that polygamy is 'right'.

Your logic:
There was alot of murder in the bible.
Wow murder must be okay by God.

Also It is true that there was a trandition that followed back in ancient Jew time concerning marrying the women you slept with. The male was obliged to accept marriage if the women or the women's father insisted upon it. If neither one them wanted the union though, the male was not obliged to marry her.

Now i ask, where are your new testament supporting evidence.

Just because the Bible mentions a trait or act of an individual, even a godly person, does not necessarily mean that the Bible endorsed such. The mentioning of Noah becoming drunk and disgracing himself is mentioned, but certainly not condoned (Gen. 9: 20.)



The very first marriage, Adam and Eve, in many ways serves as a prototype, if you will. Notice that God knew that it was not good that Adam be alone and God provided for Adam a "help meet" (counter part that was a complement to Adam, Gen. 2: 18). Observe how God did not simply provide another man, but for Adam God made woman, the "glory of the man" (Gen. 2: 18ff., I Cor. 11: 7.). Hence, same sex marriage is not part of God’s arrangement for the marriage bond (see Rom. 1: 22.). Moreover, appreciate the fact that when God instituted marriage, it was one man and one woman (Gen. 2). If polygamy is the "ideal," as some are teaching, why, then, did not God create Eve, Sue, Jane, etc. for Adam?

[Thriller]

Your not understanding sandman.

There is a commandment against murder. (the sixth i think)

Polygamy is not the ideal relationship in the bible
Sex before marriage is not encouraged.

I'm just saying that the bible does not think it's immoral.

The definitions you gave for porneia and moiceiva are not maybe wrong...

They are wrong. Those are not what those words meant back then.... this is a fact, you can look it up with any university history department.(maybe not bob jones... but any with a study of ancient language )If you don't want the word in a historical sense then your just opening the flood gates to interpret it however you see fit. (ill take it to mean petting bunny rabbits than)


The story of Adam an Eve is not a parable on what constitutes a normal family. But on how we came to be and why we are the way we are.( It's to give us meaning.)

[Mister Sandman]

Your not understanding sandman.

There is a commandment against murder. (the sixth i think)

Polygamy is not the ideal relationship in the bible
Sex before marriage is not encouraged.

I'm just saying that the bible does not think it's immoral.

Im just saying you have no evidence either way. You translate that it the bible isnt immoral. However, many translate that it is.

One can even see the consequences of such a life style. And it is the life style that is immoral.

Polygamy and Sex before marriage are not pleasing to God.
And you do seem to not realise my verse i give you. That they do not say wives, they say wife. They do not condone sex before marriage. Sex is scared and let it be that way. Between a man and a wife only.

Sex before marriage, can be under porneia.

Lets take smoking for example. Is smoking immoral? No. Is it beneficial. Not in the least.

The definitions you gave for porneia and moiceiva are not maybe wrong...

They are wrong. Those are not what those words meant back then.... this is a fact, you can look it up with any university history department.(maybe not bob jones... but any with a study of ancient language )If you don't want the word in a historical sense then your just opening the flood gates to interpret it however you see fit. (ill take it to mean petting bunny rabbits than)

Im not sure, as you can say, it is interpretive. I didnt study Greek, or Latin in great depth, I studied Hebrew.

In a historical sense, well you werent there to know it.

The story of Adam an Eve is not a parable on what constitutes a normal family. But on how we came to be and why we are the way we are.( It's to give us meaning.)

However, if God wanted Polygamy he would of made more than one woman.

Marriage is the union of two flesh so they are one. You cannot be one with 3 different people.

Ergo, Polygamy is not supported by the bible.

Sex before marriage, as said before in other verses.
Not supported.

/tread useless, you will continue to see it your way, because well you have an obvious bias.

I will see it my way, because it is the better life style choice to choose.

The best advice i can give is go to the source, become Christian, Ask God.

Ask pastors if you will, challenge them, im sure they'd enjoy it.

[Eelyzabth]

lets get 1 or 2 things straight,

1)
the bible was written by a bunch of MEN hence he fact that married men can screw around but not women...and that a wife is spoken of as a possession

2)
it was written to make people frightened of hell, and therefore to control their lives, to make them 'toe the line' in this life in the hopes of a better afterlife, : the poor shall inherit the earth? in other words don't argue with rich people...

the basic's of the bible are good, the stuff that was passed by word of mouth before the thing got 'comercialized' by the church, but basically it is a tool of oppression, like certain other religions ...

I don't follow any religion, there may be a god, but I personally prefer to believe in GOOD rather than GOD... no one ever said I killed that train load of people because GOOD told me to do it!