What should Greece do?

[~Drunken Master~]

The EU should be disbanded completely as it is not doing anyone any favors. More and more will fall as each country goes in different directions.

Very hard to keep up with the financial down fall.

Unless they suck up to China for money like the US does.

There you are completely wrong, EU has been of great help to some of the Eastern Nations, and also help Portugal/Spain to get off the horrible state they were after decades of dictatorship from Salazar and Franco.
Not to mention it helped a lot my nation's agrarian sector (not only that). Not to mention people who yell at the Euro forget the scam about currency changes that happened before Euro being implemented. I remember one example taught in economy course, that a dude did a tour in the EU of 15 (in late 1990s) with 100FF, changing currency in every country, in the end, 2/3 (yes!) of what he had without spending anything from this symbolic amount just changing it, disappeared between currencies change. Wonderful, isn't it?


Also, deni, welcome to the club of "you don't agree with me thus you don't understand how it works".

Bro, you make some valid points and i do agree with most of it. The question is , where does it all end? how many will fail before the BIG ECONOMY'S like Germany go belly up ?

Time to get off a sinking ship before it is too late...

I guess you will have to wait a long time before this happens. Germany still grows, there has been basically no "crisis" that was felt in any way. No "For Sale" signs on every fifth house as seen in the UK for example. Even with the burden the Euro partnes bear upon Germany, Germany is still doing great.

Yes but will Germany be willing to hold every EU nation on its back ? Thats the question... If time comes to that then indeed every 2nd house will be up for sale not every 5th house...

[deni]

The EU should be disbanded completely as it is not doing anyone any favors. More and more will fall as each country goes in different directions.

Very hard to keep up with the financial down fall.

Unless they suck up to China for money like the US does.

There you are completely wrong, EU has been of great help to some of the Eastern Nations, and also help Portugal/Spain to get off the horrible state they were after decades of dictatorship from Salazar and Franco.
Not to mention it helped a lot my nation's agrarian sector (not only that). Not to mention people who yell at the Euro forget the scam about currency changes that happened before Euro being implemented. I remember one example taught in economy course, that a dude did a tour in the EU of 15 (in late 1990s) with 100FF, changing currency in every country, in the end, 2/3 (yes!) of what he had without spending anything from this symbolic amount just changing it, disappeared between currencies change. Wonderful, isn't it?


Also, deni, welcome to the club of "you don't agree with me thus you don't understand how it works".

Bro, you make some valid points and i do agree with most of it. The question is , where does it all end? how many will fail before the BIG ECONOMY'S like Germany go belly up ?

Time to get off a sinking ship before it is too late...

I guess you will have to wait a long time before this happens. Germany still grows, there has been basically no "crisis" that was felt in any way. No "For Sale" signs on every fifth house as seen in the UK for example. Even with the burden the Euro partnes bear upon Germany, Germany is still doing great.

Yes but will Germany be willing to hold every EU nation on its back ? Thats the question... If time comes to that then indeed every 2nd house will be up for sale not every 5th house...

It is the meaning of a partnership.

Together with France and the Benelux states there is a solid core who understands and appreciates the idea and actually works towards a vision instead of clinging to centurie old common laws and holding back to past times of greatness.

[~Drunken Master~]

My dear Deni, France is going to hit the bucket soon as there economy is not that far behind Italys crippled economy ....

Anyway, I wish EU the best..

The Greece President is now holding a live conference...

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[[KMA]Avenger]

deni, i don't mean to be rude or condescending, but i can see from your responses that you have no idea what is going on with Greece, Spain and the greater global economic crisis. i've spent 3+ years looking solely at the economic situation and it is not what you think it is...

For instance, did you know that Spain has just had their credit rating downgraded which has resulted in Spain paying more for their short and long term bond yields which has brought them closer to the point of not being able to sustain their debts? this is mainstream news, not some hidden conspiracy.

Trust what i say is true, this money is NOT owed by the people of the world, this debt belongs to the banks and the banks alone. but don't take my word for it, go see for yourself.
Edit, What KF said.

Without wanting to be rude myself, I had to laugh out really hard and loud when reading your post. Those who know of my professional (and educational) background will know why.

I understand your desire to blame every sin there is on the big evil banks, yet it does not do you any honour to come up with the "if you do not agree with me, then you do not understand anything"-statement. It is a sign of weakness.

I've heard the same from others on many other forums. they are either tax collectors, accountants, teachers of economics, students of economics or civil servants. it absolutely staggers my mind how little all of them are informed.
It is also no new thing to have the accusation and/or assumption made against me that what i am saying is "you either believe what i say, or you are clueless" or words to that affect. i have neither said nor implied anything of that nature.

What i have told you is the truth. it is up to you to either go and investigate it for yourself or carry on talking from a point of ignorance. ignorance in this case being that you are not aware of the facts, nothing more.


KF is also correct that the US and UK have no law that requires us to pay taxes. dunno about other nations. i would suggest that you watch Aaron Russo's film America Freedom to Fascism, which is a journey to find the law in the US that requires US citizens to pay taxes. it's not a conspiracy film by any stretch of the imagination. it's a simple investigation to find said law. he even talks with the guy that wrote the US tax code, even he couldn't/wouldn't find the law.

As for the UK my brother worked as a subcontracted satellite fitter, a self employed job. when the time came to pay his taxes he refused and was told to explain himself to the customs/tax people. "they asked why haven't you paid?" he simply asked "show me the law and i'll pay!" they said "we don't have to show you the law, pay up or else!". that didn't give him much choice so he was forced to pay. after he had paid he wrote a letter to the customs people, inland revenue and even contacted his MP asking them to show him the law or at least point him in the right direction so he could find it himself. customs didn't reply, inland revenue told him the law is in the books but wouldn't tell him which ones and his MP was baffled and confused saying words to the affect of "everyone knows that law, and everyone knows you have to pay". that's the kind of mentality we have placed in control of our country


Regardless, as i've stated, i've told you the truth

[Legendary Apophis]

My dear Deni, France is going to hit the bucket soon as there economy is not that far behind Italys crippled economy ....

Anyway, I wish EU the best..

The Greece President is now holding a live conference...

I would agree with you if it was the opposition that would be winning the coming elections of 2012, them being all in the spendspendspend while providing little about how would they be able to support the spend without causing more troubles to my nation's economy. Otherwise, the cutting plans are effectively done, and spending that matters won't be affected (at least for now).
It's just a matter of would you walk same path or question your actions and take a different one to avoid the wall at end of the way.

[[KMA]Avenger]

My dear Deni, France is going to hit the bucket soon as there economy is not that far behind Italys crippled economy ....

Anyway, I wish EU the best..

The Greece President is now holding a live conference...

I would agree with you if it was the opposition that would be winning the coming elections of 2012, them being all in the spendspendspend while providing little about how would they be able to support the spend without causing more troubles to my nation's economy. Otherwise, the cutting plans are effectively done, and spending that matters won't be affected (at least for now).
It's just a matter of would you walk same path or question your actions and take a different one to avoid the wall at end of the way.

Jim, you do realise that Société Générale (i believe it's the biggest French bank?) is insolvent and will need bailing out?
Guess who is going to pay for that bailout!

[deni]

My dear Deni, France is going to hit the bucket soon as there economy is not that far behind Italys crippled economy ....

Anyway, I wish EU the best..

The Greece President is now holding a live conference...

I would agree with you if it was the opposition that would be winning the coming elections of 2012, them being all in the spendspendspend while providing little about how would they be able to support the spend without causing more troubles to my nation's economy. Otherwise, the cutting plans are effectively done, and spending that matters won't be affected (at least for now).
It's just a matter of would you walk same path or question your actions and take a different one to avoid the wall at end of the way.

Jim, you do realise that Société Générale (i believe it's the biggest French bank?) is insolvent and will need bailing out?
Guess who is going to pay for that bailout!

Your information kinda contradicts the statement, that SG will stem the capital needed due to the new capital requirements on their own, doesnt it?

I also see them cutting their trading book to reduce risk weighted assets and thus gaining more capital buffer.

I also have not heard anyone in the business asking them for more collaterals, and SG being the number one on equity derivatives, one should expect that any sign of weakness will be followed by stricter collaterals rules. We have seen Lehman, haven't we?

But hey, what do I know!? I guess I do not know anything and you do know all

[renegadze]

The EU should be disbanded completely as it is not doing anyone any favors. More and more will fall as each country goes in different directions.

Very hard to keep up with the financial down fall.

Unless they suck up to China for money like the US does.

There you are completely wrong, EU has been of great help to some of the Eastern Nations, and also help Portugal/Spain to get off the horrible state they were after decades of dictatorship from Salazar and Franco.
Not to mention it helped a lot my nation's agrarian sector (not only that). Not to mention people who yell at the Euro forget the scam about currency changes that happened before Euro being implemented. I remember one example taught in economy course, that a dude did a tour in the EU of 15 (in late 1990s) with 100FF, changing currency in every country, in the end, 2/3 (yes!) of what he had without spending anything from this symbolic amount just changing it, disappeared between currencies change. Wonderful, isn't it?


Also, deni, welcome to the club of "you don't agree with me thus you don't understand how it works".

Bro, you make some valid points and i do agree with most of it. The question is , where does it all end? how many will fail before the BIG ECONOMY'S like Germany go belly up ?

Time to get off a sinking ship before it is too late...

I guess you will have to wait a long time before this happens. Germany still grows, there has been basically no "crisis" that was felt in any way. No "For Sale" signs on every fifth house as seen in the UK for example. Even with the burden the Euro partnes bear upon Germany, Germany is still doing great.

Isn't Germany's public debt per GDP terrible? I'm sure last figure I see put this at one of the worst in europe (due to them having to provide such sizeable chunks for bailouts) in 2010 it was at 83% while the UK was about 72% I think......but I think Germany is pushing the 100% now

[[KMA]Avenger]

My dear Deni, France is going to hit the bucket soon as there economy is not that far behind Italys crippled economy ....

Anyway, I wish EU the best..

The Greece President is now holding a live conference...

I would agree with you if it was the opposition that would be winning the coming elections of 2012, them being all in the spendspendspend while providing little about how would they be able to support the spend without causing more troubles to my nation's economy. Otherwise, the cutting plans are effectively done, and spending that matters won't be affected (at least for now).
It's just a matter of would you walk same path or question your actions and take a different one to avoid the wall at end of the way.

Jim, you do realise that Société Générale (i believe it's the biggest French bank?) is insolvent and will need bailing out?
Guess who is going to pay for that bailout!

Your information kinda contradicts the statement, that SG will stem the capital needed due to the new capital requirements on their own, doesnt it?

That's not what i am talking about, it's their exposure to Greek debt...that and the fact they have been making bad bets....

But hey, what do i know, banks don't have bad management, it's the Govts fault

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[deni]

I see. You are one of those wanting to reap the benefits but not contribute in any form. And they accuse the banks of being after a free lunch

As convenient as it might be, this is not a discussion about your aversion to being a British citizen but about Greece. Surely you can give up your citizenship ig you feel so strongly about it

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[[KMA]Avenger]

tag your it Mezz/KMA etc, good luck

Not me mate...but what i will say is deni, take off your rose tinted glasses

[deni]

I understood pretty well. Your main point is, that the debt the Greek state made is illegal and has not to be repaied by the people of Greece.

Yet that debt was voted for by the Greek parliament by letting the budget of the Greek state pass through. The Greek parliament is democratically elected by the Greek people and as in every representative democracy, it represents the interests of the voters. If you do not agree with the actions taken by your representatives, then in a democracy, the logical conseqquence would be not to elect them to represent you next time.

I do see though that you lack any real arguments in this discussion and try to bring it off topic with statements regarding how citizenship is gained and basically questioning ANY form of governemt. I can only conclude from that, that you do not have anything else to add on the topic about "What Greece should do".