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I say direct democracy (giving the people the right to vote on any and all things that Govt proposes) can work and in fact does work.

Can direct democracy work? i say it does and the proof are this is with the reality shows. everyone on these shows has a voice and a vote and can exercise their right to vote on whatever it is they are asked to vote on.

I personally do not watch TV any more and have not watched TV in well over 2 years. i also HAT with a MASSIVE passion all things reality TV, BUT i know how they work and they work very well as evidenced by the staggering amounts of people who watch these damn things. the basis for all these shows IS direct democracy. if DD did not work these shows would never have got of the ground. if you apply the principle of DD to the workings of Govt and everyday life, i have no doubt it would work better than what we have now, which is a bunch of morons who tell us what we can and cannot do, and how things will be regardless of what we the people think and want.

DD, can it work?

I believe it can not.
Because people can be corrupted, misdirected and plain ignorant to the things they are voting for. And quite frankly i wouldn't like to spend my entire life voting and thinking and doing a job that my government should be doin.

Those shows only work because they are 'spectacular' (as in out of the ordinary).
Any 'average' human being will get bored the minute he has to vote on every thing that used to be decided by his representatives.

Someone would persuade a sizeable group of people to vote as 'A' votes; either through good arguments, money or intimidation, and society would go straight to hell. Again.

Summary argument; people have neither the competence nor the commitment to vote on the affairs of life. They simply don't care. Why do you think the current system continues to exist? Apathy. Bobby Joe is content to sit in front of his tv, drink beer and eat hamburgers, and go to the welfare center or his office by day.
DD will never work unless you cut out the lower classes and leave the actual democracy to the middle and upper class.

Juliette wrote:DD will never work unless you cut out the lower classes and leave the actual democracy to the middle and upper class.

Isn't that called modern society?
But yes, i share into the arguments that Juliette brought to the table.

Juliette wrote:DD will never work unless you cut out the lower classes and leave the actual democracy to the middle and upper class.

Bull **Filtered**. That is precisely what we have now and exactly why we're so **Filtered** up.

Direct democracy wont work, you'll just be switching out one group of idiots for another.

Malx wrote:

Juliette wrote:DD will never work unless you cut out the lower classes and leave the actual democracy to the middle and upper class.

Isn't that called modern society?
But yes, i share into the arguments that Juliette brought to the table.

Well, you would have to downgrade their citizenship officially before you can pull this off. (Or you can just bypass them and threaten with omg-so-deadly!-terror, like what used to be all the rage.)

[BoT] Jack wrote:

Juliette wrote:DD will never work unless you cut out the lower classes and leave the actual democracy to the middle and upper class.

Bull **Filtered**. That is precisely what we have now and exactly why we're so **Filtered** up.
Direct democracy wont work, you'll just be switching out one group of idiots for another.

We are **Filtered** up because the lower class cannot keep their mouths shut and start breaking things like the barbarians they are. Silence that 99% properly (hamburgers and blood sports), and issues will disappear like snow before the sun. So some people will fall through the cracks and end up being deadbeats. Mop them up and set them to work in the mines. ("You don't want to work? Go lie in a ditch and die already.") Boom, another issue solved.

Juliette wrote:Those shows only work because they are 'spectacular' (as in out of the ordinary).
Any 'average' human being will get bored the minute he has to vote on every thing that used to be decided by his representatives.

Someone would persuade a sizeable group of people to vote as 'A' votes; either through good arguments, money or intimidation, and society would go straight to hell. Again.

Summary argument; people have neither the competence nor the commitment to vote on the affairs of life. They simply don't care. Why do you think the current system continues to exist? Apathy. Bobby Joe is content to sit in front of his tv, drink beer and eat hamburgers, and go to the welfare center or his office by day.
DD will never work unless you cut out the lower classes and leave the actual democracy to the middle and upper class.

I agree. As much as I like to vote, I don't know if I would attend very regularly the votes for this or that proposal, these being sort of petitions like it's currently the case in Switzerland if I'm not mistaken. Apparently they face a relative lack of attendance to votes because they are rather numerous and on every subject that can gather a minimum of support to be brought to a vote. Problem of schedule, problem of interest (some proposals concerning only a particular socio professional branch for example, I wouldn't be informed enough to give my opinion about a technical thing regarding a category I never worked for). As a result, the information about what when and for what should be provided to be able in advance to prepare accordingly your schedule for what votes you would have interest into.

Juliette wrote: Silence that 99% properly (hamburgers and blood sports), and issues will disappear like snow before the sun. So some people will fall through the cracks and end up being deadbeats. Mop them up and set them to work in the mines. ("You don't want to work? Go lie in a ditch and die already.") Boom, another issue solved.

There, I don't agree though. Caricatural and totally excessive.
Hamburgers? How do hamburgers "silence" people? They can just cause excess of weight but that's about it. Unless you meant cannibalism, which would be, aside from morality epic disaster factor, an utter nonsense and would be a big giant highway to every sort of criminality/"sleep with the fishes" affairs. Anyway, those working in MacDonalds and fast food usually happen to be students who need funds to carry on their studies when they cannot receive a scholar-grant.
Blood Sports use: "industrial" murderers factory to increase criminality rate even more than it is. Insecurity raised drastically.

Juliette wrote:

[BoT] Jack wrote:

Juliette wrote:DD will never work unless you cut out the lower classes and leave the actual democracy to the middle and upper class.

Bull **Filtered**. That is precisely what we have now and exactly why we're so **Filtered** up.
Direct democracy wont work, you'll just be switching out one group of idiots for another.

We are **Filtered** up because the lower class cannot keep their mouths shut and start breaking things like the barbarians they are. Silence that 99% properly (hamburgers and blood sports), and issues will disappear like snow before the sun. So some people will fall through the cracks and end up being deadbeats. Mop them up and set them to work in the mines. ("You don't want to work? Go lie in a ditch and die already.") Boom, another issue solved.

Again, I call bull **Filtered**. The issues wont disappear, they'll just be hidden from view until finally they blow up in your face. Ignoring an issue doesn't make it go away, all it does is allow it to fester and grow unimpeded.

The risk with direct democracy is an even bigger "walk forward one step and then go backwards by two steps" than it is currently. Some issues are unpopular but need to be done (up the retirement age in some countries, freeze salaries from public sectors during economy problems...), with direct democracy these would either go back and forth or not be done at all. Not to mention the fact many people can be manipulated by "speech masters" (often populist politicians from left or right wing) and would go in favor of nonsensical/demagogic proposals.
But more commonly, the facts raised above about knowledge, caring and schedule-availability.

Mostly arguments against, with the exception of Jim who is trying to give it a more balanced answer instead of Malx and Juliets outright dismissal...

My question now becomes, i know no country which has either a representative Govt or a Govt of the people and yet the world is falling apart at the seams. uncontrolled budgets, MASSIVE deficits, out of control banks and bankers, never ending and un-payable debts, corrupt and totally inept leaders and politicians, escalating endless and un-winnable wars...how can DD be any worse than that?



Edit, just had a thought...i would also put it to those who are against DD that you are being hypocritical....

I feel represented by my government at least as the student I am, because I consider their reforms for university to be positive for the well being of university system as a whole. Now of course, I disagree with some laws voted by the representatives of both chambers, and decisions by government, but generally I don't feel like I was betrayed by the ones I currently show my support towards. Obviously they didn't fulfill every points listed in the presidential campaign, but I am confident another % of said points will be worked on, at least if the reelection was to happen.

To those who think I am blindly accepting and following without questioning, I have some points with which I have a more or less important disagreeing and that counts in my future decision about who will I vote for in future elections. Confronting the pros & cons of every party, like I did already in most of other elections/votes I voted for. I already criticized in "RL" and on the political forums some points of the party I feel closest to when I felt I didn't agree with it. That is logical, one can never 100% agree with a party, and not criticizing (with proper arguments, not trolling for sake of it) some points of your favorite party when you disagree is a mistake.

So Jim, you say you voted for your current Govt. if you voted for them-how can you be pro-EU since it is the stated goal of the EU to form a superstate, divide up the European land mass into regions and do away with all sovereignty and bring all Euro nations Govts under the control of the unelected eurocrats?

I don't understand how you can reconcile 2 differing ideologies and accept them both at the same time! you like (and seems to me) and enjoy expressing your political beliefs through the ballot box for the party that best represents you, and yet in other discussions you have called for the abolition of that right through more EU integration and the support of the EU even though they have openly stated they want to do away with all sovereignty and freedom...you cant have it both ways, do you want to keep your Govt and right to vote, or do you want to give all that away?

Since we disagree on the core value of human life, freedom and the right to self-governance, I think it is best I leave my previous argument as it is, and only add the following.
(Also, I am no hypocrite. I only moan the decisions inspired by those I did NOT elect to represent me. -The answer to the silent question in which class I place myself (and am placed) socioeconomically is; Yes, upper class, so my word counts.-)

But it is a good thought experiment. Direct Democracy like the Athenians, with slavery as a driving force, is an excellent form of government. All-inclusive DD; won't work. People are bad.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:So Jim, you say you voted for your current Govt. if you voted for them-how can you be pro-EU since it is the stated goal of the EU to form a superstate, divide up the European land mass into regions and do away with all sovereignty and bring all Euro nations Govts under the control of the unelected eurocrats?

I don't understand how you can reconcile 2 differing ideologies and accept them both at the same time! you like (and seems to me) and enjoy expressing your political beliefs through the ballot box for the party that best represents you, and yet in other discussions you have called for the abolition of that right through more EU integration and the support of the EU even though they have openly stated they want to do away with all sovereignty and freedom...you cant have it both ways, do you want to keep your Govt and right to vote, or do you want to give all that away?

I didn't vote for it directly for presidential/representative assembly elections, I was underage when elections happened (and I was still teenage and had different opinions in politics -left wing-).
I however voted for the party I like, among different elections, in the EUROPEAN ELECTIONS for EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT representation. Voting for EPP group. (European People Party, centre right wing, pro EU)


Also, I am aware that I am among the most under represented in this small place due to my stances (opposed-to-liberals right wing, pro-EU) and disliked due to my sociological-geographical origins, but I suppose it's a challenge to be the one vs all from time to time.

Juliette wrote:(Also, I am no hypocrite. I only moan the decisions inspired by those I did NOT elect to represent me. -The answer to the silent question in which class I place myself (and am placed) socioeconomically is; Yes, upper class, so my word counts.-)

It wouldn't matter if you did complain about the ones you voted for. That does not make you a hypocrite.