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What is Government? can we live without it?
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:17 am
by [KMA]Avenger
Just why the hell do we need this thing called "government" anyways??
I have many ideas for topics knocking around in my head which i have to mull over for sometime (sometimes well over a year) before i consider a subject matter worthy of discussion. this is 1 such subject. i recently started really thinking about what the hell government is and tried to define it in my head without success. so i started Googling (i don't use Google, haven't done so for many months because of Googles ties with the NSA and the fact they are tracking everyone on the web. another topic of debate for a latter time) through
startpage trying to come up with an answer and came across this EXCELLENT YT video on the exact same subject matter i was trying to grasp in my head.
I STRONGLY suggest you watch this before engaging in the discussion to see what i mean, but it's not ultimately required.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUS1m5MSt9k
Re: What is Government? can we live without it?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:15 am
by MEZZANINE
Government could be considered a form of management
One the County Councils in Wales ( I think it was Rhondda Cynon Taf ) did an experiment last year where they removed ALL management from the Refuse Disposal section to see what would happen.
Refuse Disposal is actually a large and wide area of work, and a major service that the local authorities provide ( paid for by our Council Taxes ), drivers to collect the rubbish, Garages to maintain the trucks, offices to arrange the routes, ensure coverage with sickness & annual leave, sort the licenses/insurance etc, sorting area's for recycling, etc etc
What they found was that for day to day operations managers were totally unnecessary, work continued as usual, initially it even improved in some area's without them, Several £100K in managers salaries could be saved.
BUT
The problems were stagnation and lack of accountability
Without management no new idea's could be agreed on for major changes, people who were initially helpful and eager to step up when problems arose started to squabble over who was or wasnt pulling their weight, and some workers started slacking off and cutting corners.
I think the same would apply to government on a grander scale, things would tickover fine without them until an unexpected event or a changing circumstance required a change in the ways things are done, then without leadership people go off in different directions not considering the effects outside their immediate area of work.
People who step up to solve problems and go the extra miles quickly get frustrated by those that slack off and without recognition or reward from above for extra efforts made even the good workers lose interest.
In short, much as we like to complain about them and criticise the many mistakes they make, management and government are needed.
The only other viable alternative is profit share paid co-operatives running everything, and that would breed a whole host of other problems.
Re: What is Government? can we live without it?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:21 am
by Legendary Apophis
Without government there would be anarchy within a short time. And you know my stance regarding anarchy...
Also, it's a wish the far left/anarchists have, auto manage factories by its workers, and even society as a whole.
Obviously I strongly oppose this. Government will always exist within a form or another, so it's pointless to try to remove it because you will see a different kind emerging.
Also, your video, talk about a subjective video. At the start I was curious about the way it would turn, and as I expected, it's something subjective at the latter bit. What it forgot to mention is that without government you will have a form of government, that's within the nature of people to have leaders, coworkers to leaders and followers.
Re: What is Government? can we live without it?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:52 am
by [KMA]Avenger
I knew you would fall back to the same old tired argument of "there would be anarchy". i think that argument has absolutely no basis in fact.
What i think would happen without Govt is this...there would be uncertainty and some disorganisation (lets not argue about the level of disorganisation) but people would quickly start to organise for themselves and start to come together and work towards solving the problems communities would face, such as those outlined by MEZZ.
Personally, i think you guys underestimate human endeavour and resourcefulness.
Could we do worse than current Govt? i think not!
Re: What is Government? can we live without it?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:58 am
by Legendary Apophis
[KMA]Avenger wrote:I knew you would fall back to the same old tired argument of "there would be anarchy". i think that argument has absolutely no basis in fact.
What i think would happen without Govt is this...there would be uncertainty and some disorganisation (lets not argue about the level of disorganisation) but people would quickly start to organise for themselves and start to come together and work towards solving the problems communities would face, such as those outlined by MEZZ.
Personally, i think you guys underestimate human endeavour and resourcefulness.
Could we do worse than current Govt? i think not!
What you lack to understand is that politicians are not robots, lizards or whatever, as that video says (it's not always wrong after all) is that politicians aren't a particular kind of race, it's humans too. Therefore, what makes you think "people" would behave differently than "politicians"? It's like the random person at the bar who yells "they are all corrupt I would be better than them all". I would gladly see these yelling people in place for a week or two to see how they would do in front of the responsibility.
Politicians ARE people, when you guys will understand it, it will be a step forward towards understanding why without government there WILL be another form of it (similar I add)!
Re: What is Government? can we live without it?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:05 am
by [KMA]Avenger
As humans what we crave and desire most is stability. people would like nothing more than to know that they can buy the things they want to buy, they want to know that the value of their money wont change from 1 day (or year) to the next, they need to know that the buses and trains will run, that the roads will be fixed when they need fixing that their rubbish will be collected when it's supposed to be collected, that the schools will be open, that criminals are removed from the streets, that the sun will rise tomorrow, if Govt vanished over night do you seriously think that mentality would suddenly change?
People would instantly move to fill the void left by a sudden lack of Govt, and in all likelihood would do a far better and more cost affective job than our current Govts. in a truly free-market the best always rises to the top, maybe not right away, but sooner or later the best always comes to the surface.
Re: What is Government? can we live without it?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:19 am
by Jack
[KMA]Avenger wrote:People would instantly move to fill the void left by a sudden lack of Govt, and in all likelihood would do a far better and more cost affective job than our current Govts. in a truly free-market the best always rises to the top, maybe not right away, but sooner or later the best always comes to the surface.
They would simply create another government, one even more evil than the last. As you've already pointed out, it would cause a power vacuum. It would also cause chaos, hysteria and general anarchy for the short term, until the strongest can form a government. That government would be built on strength and force. The new government would be more concerned with protecting it's power than the rights of it's citizenry.
Re: What is Government? can we live without it?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:26 am
by [KMA]Avenger
I doubt that. i quote myself from above.
Re: What is Government? can we live without it?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:28 am
by Jack
Dovahkiin wrote:As you've already pointed out, it would cause a power vacuum. It would also cause chaos, hysteria and general anarchy for the short term, until the strongest can form a government. That government would be built on strength and force. The new government would be more concerned with protecting it's power than the rights of it's citizenry.
Re: What is Government? can we live without it?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:30 am
by Legendary Apophis
Dovahkiin wrote:Dovahkiin wrote:As you've already pointed out, it would cause a power vacuum. It would also cause chaos, hysteria and general anarchy for the short term, until the strongest can form a government. That government would be built on strength and force. The new government would be more concerned with protecting it's power than the rights of it's citizenry.
Obviously...
Re: What is Government? can we live without it?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:31 am
by [KMA]Avenger
Legendary Apophis wrote:Dovahkiin wrote:Dovahkiin wrote:As you've already pointed out, it would cause a power vacuum. It would also cause chaos, hysteria and general anarchy for the short term, until the strongest can form a government. That government would be built on strength and force. The new government would be more concerned with protecting it's power than the rights of it's citizenry.
Obviously...
Not obviously!
Re: What is Government? can we live without it?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:36 am
by Jack
Yes, obviously. There would be pockets of decent people out there, coming together to help out one another. But then there would be those hungry for power, forming alliances and battling with other power hungry groups until the strongest comes out on top. This is almost guaranteed to be the more evil of the two. The victor would then move on to annex other groups.
Our governments are far from perfect, but if they were to disappear overnight, that would lead to a far worse situation.
Re: What is Government? can we live without it?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:45 am
by [KMA]Avenger
That would only be the case IF the "power" was still concentrated in an office. in that case you will have every power hungry mother and their sons scrambling for control. what i am saying is this, if Govt, all Govt offices, the military the police and every thing created by Govt disappeared over night so all you had left was the general populace and only the general populace-that would not be the case...far from it, people would reorganise and survive just fine. and as i said above, in all likelihood, would do a FAR better job of it.
Govt is incapable, disorganised, corrupt beyond imagination and as history has proved, power hungry and always seeks to limit civil liberties. Govt is destructive and debilitates the people with it's unjust rules and regulations, and serves no one but itself.
Re: What is Government? can we live without it?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:52 am
by Legendary Apophis
[KMA]Avenger wrote:That would only be the case IF the "power" was still concentrated in an office. in that case you will have every power hungry mother and their sons scrambling for control. what i am saying is this, if Govt, all Govt offices, the military the police and every thing created by Govt disappeared over night so all you had left was the general populace and only the general populace-that would not be the case...far from it, people would reorganise and survive just fine. and as i said above, in all likelihood, would do a FAR better job of it.
Govt is incapable, disorganised, corrupt beyond imagination and as history has proved, power hungry and always seeks to limit civil liberties. Govt is destructive and debilitates the people with it's unjust rules and regulations, and serves no one but itself.
With not too much time it would just go back to "normal" (as it currently is +/-). Or it would turn into anarchy if they wouldn't have found a working enough system of governing.
Also, what's with your admiration if not even more of the "general populace"? It reminds me about these people who are obsessed with social classes conflict stuff (bourgeois vs proletariat etc...)
Re: What is Government? can we live without it?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:54 am
by [KMA]Avenger
Why?