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The 2nd amendment is not the problem here MEZZ. the problem is far more complicated and there is no single reason for civilian shootings in the states. i don't wish to discuss those reasons here so as not to derail the thread. there is another thread already regarding the right to keep and bear arms.

MEZZANINE wrote:Either way, and regardless of the law carrying a gun in public is wrong and will sooner or later end in the gun being used.

As you guys know, i listen to the Alex Jones show. Alex will at least once a month open up the phone lines for serving police officers. i've heard police call in and have spoken about when they see someone practising there 2nd amendment rights by openly carrying firearms in public-they will approach the person and thank them because they know that if a gun battle was to break out they would back up the police officer.
That's not meant to justify anything, it's simply a POV from a law man who might end up fighting for his life in a street gun battle.



[spoiler]A point of interest regarding gun sales in the US. the US last month sold 5 million guns. the past few months in the US has seen record gun sales. people buying guns reported that the number 1 reason for the purchase of firearms and ammo was a distrust of the Govt. and with congress's approval at an all time low of just 9%, buying guns is understandable.[/spoiler]

Dovahkiin wrote:This thread isn't about gun rights, it's about a shooting in Florida, there is a thread about gun rights already, please post there or make a new thread if you wish discuss that subject. I'll happily debate it there, but not here.

You keep stating that carrying a gun is legal, as is shooting dead a 17 year old who is only armed with a bag of sweets.

This is clearly morally wrong, so if it's legally right then gun law is key to the discussion



If this man wasnt allowed to carry a gun, the kid would still be alive, and if no members of the public were allowed to carry guns a great many other adults and children would still be alive........ simple as that.


And on the political side, the gun laws are the only bit the politicians should comment on.

Policing is non-political, politicians make the law, police should enforce it independently.

The only problem i have of the public carrying guns is a SEVER lack of education. i believe the Swiss also allow the public to own guns, you don't see them having the kind of problems the Americans have with firearms. so the problem is not the public owning guns per-Se but the culture, education and the lack of compulsory basic firearms course.

This is the other side of the argument, in defence of civilian gun ownership: http://www.infowars.com/country-rises-u ... hampshire/

[spoiler2=]

MEZZANINE wrote:@ Jack

Official police statements to the press can be found, NOT the internal reports.


Oh and just watching the news as I get ready for work, another example comes up of your insane gun culture, yet another school/university mass shooting just because someone got upset and had easy access to a gun

Ex-student ID'd as suspect in shooting at Oikos University in California that killed 7

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/02/1- ... al-school/

It's true that guns dont kill people...................... but people with guns DO

Guns making killing far to quick and easy in the heat of the moment when your bloods up, without a gun you might swear, shout, maybe in extreme cases get into a fight.......... with guns people die.

[/spoiler2]

Guns don't make people kill each other. If you only ever get into a fist fight in the most extreme situations, then I can pretty much guarantee you're not going to shoot anyone unless your life depends on it. Certainly not because someone pissed you off.

I don't ever get into fist fights, I try to avoid fights. I have for a long long time. I also carry a gun, everywhere I go and at all times. Yes I even carry at the bar. But hey guess what, no ones has been shot. I know, it's shocking ain't it?

Dovahkiin wrote:I don't ever get into fist fights, I try to avoid fights. I have for a long long time. I also carry a gun, everywhere I go and at all times. Yes I even carry at the bar. But hey guess what, no ones has been shot. I know, it's shocking ain't it?

Only to those that not only do not understand why the Americans have gun rights and the 2nd amendment, but to those who have been so conditioned they believe the govt propaganda about how bad owning a gun is...

Correct me if wrong, but didn't the 2nd amendment come from the Magna Carta which required the British peasantry know how to use the weapon of the day (be it the long bow or other weapon of choice such as guns) so they would be a form of check and balance against the tyrannical British monarchy?

Historic reasons for laws are bogus, just because something was right or needed a century ago doesnt make it right or needed today, all laws should adapt with social progress.

In the US guns are BIG business, HUGE profits to be made = HUGE lobbying and advertising budgets


@ Jack

People fight the world over, even those that try to avoid fighting get dragging into it sometimes, the difference guns make is guns make killing easy and remote.

In most fights the worst that will usually happen is a few bruises, most people are reluctant to use knives because of the 'up close & personal' nature of them, and the fact that as in fist fights you start one and you are just as likely to get hurt as hurt someone else.

Give people guns and sooner or later they will use them, then they or others will get killed. Plain and simple.

Actually, the worse that can come from a fist fight is that some gets killed or seriously injured. Guns aren't needed for that to happen neither.

You talk a lot about people not wanting to control themselves. Perhaps it is that has no self control and it frieghtens you so you want to control everyone around you.

MEZZANINE wrote:Historic reasons for laws are bogus, just because something was right or needed a century ago doesnt make it right or needed today, all laws should adapt with social progress.

Tyrannical monarchs never existed and were "bogus"?


Technological advancement aside, there are so many similarities between today's ruling class and the ruling class of the past that made it necessary for the peasantry to rise up against them.

When you have a law system that is fluid and ever evolving (such as Magna Carta) you risk having the ruling class make the law whatever they want the law to be. when the people are made the rulers with inalienable rights (such as the US constitution) and the ruling (or political) class are made the servants of the people then the laws are just...provided the people are educated enough to spot encroachment by the ruling class on said rights, and representatives brave and patriotic enough to keep the masses informed.

@KF, i obviously cant reply mate. message received and i can't argue the point due to losing the information i had, and without that i have to say, i stand corrected.

Care to elaborate?

KF sent me a PM. the last time i made a PM of his public he wasn't (understandably) to happy. so i'll just wait and see if he cares to elaborate

MEZZANINE wrote:

Dovahkiin wrote:This thread isn't about gun rights, it's about a shooting in Florida, there is a thread about gun rights already, please post there or make a new thread if you wish discuss that subject. I'll happily debate it there, but not here.

You keep stating that carrying a gun is legal, as is shooting dead a 17 year old who is only armed with a bag of sweets.

This is clearly morally wrong, so if it's legally right then gun law is key to the discussion



If this man wasnt allowed to carry a gun, the kid would still be alive, and if no members of the public were allowed to carry guns a great many other adults and children would still be alive........ simple as that.


And on the political side, the gun laws are the only bit the politicians should comment on.

Policing is non-political, politicians make the law, police should enforce it independently.

you think just because people are "not allowed to carry a gun" they wont. if that becomes the case the only ones who will carry a gun will be those who have no care for the law and will most likely use them for the bad intent that you mention. then how will those without bad intent defend themselves. as it was mentioned, just because you try to avoid those situations doesn't mean you wont get drawn into them due to bad place bad time, and idk about you, if i'm in the wrong place wrong time where someone has a gun and intends to shoot people, i'd much rather have a gun of my own to defend myself with than not. carrying a gun is not morally wrong, what is morally wrong is the people who intend to use it for bad will, and even if it becomes illigal to carry it doesn't mean they wont, because they are already using it to do illegal things, all that would happen is it would strip the rights of those who obey the laws and do not have bad intent from defending themselves.

sorry if the grammer sucks but i'm suffering from massive sleep deprivation atm, lmao

the amendment is for militia.. American without that piece of **Filtered** amendment would be far better off.

Ra wrote:the amendment is for militia.. American without that piece of **Filtered** amendment would be far better off.

are you saying people shouldn't be able to defend themselves, the purpose of it was so people can protect themselves, their home, and their family from threats that mean them harm. weather it be people like robbers, or people that just have something against you, to wild animals that could harm you.

and dont just say its a piece of **Filtered** amendment and that we would be better off without it, give some reasons