Proposed ban on assault weapons by Obama

[xDaku]

LMAO!

Check this quote out by the ultimate pacifist...or so history tells us!

"among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

-Mohandas Gandhi



But the anti-gun people say they only want to ban certain weapons and have some more strict controls on licensing, registration and background checks, that's reasonable isn't it!? no it's not. history shows that those have always been the first steps to total disarmament which always leads to total tyranny. that's historical fact!

Yea, Canada is a total tyrant.

I agree with the assault weapons bans, simply because there's no reason for them in civilization. Sure we could have argued otherwise in the years before, but we're not in the era of self protection over societal protection anymore.

With that said, I think the reasoning is wrong. This whole "US is filled with gun lovers that's why there's violence" POV is flawed. Look at UK's violence rate and you'll find out that doesn't hold up. Death by assault rifles is around 5% in the US. More people die from punches and kicks.

The issue should never have been gun laws. It should have been violence reduction. There's a difference, and arguably, the latter isn't being considered cause the former's more "loud" and "exciting".

[curtthehurt1]

[spoiler]

LMAO!

Check this quote out by the ultimate pacifist...or so history tells us!

"among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

-Mohandas Gandhi



But the anti-gun people say they only want to ban certain weapons and have some more strict controls on licensing, registration and background checks, that's reasonable isn't it!? no it's not. history shows that those have always been the first steps to total disarmament which always leads to total tyranny. that's historical fact!

Yea, Canada is a total tyrant.

I agree with the assault weapons bans, simply because there's no reason for them in civilization. Sure we could have argued otherwise in the years before, but we're not in the era of self protection over societal protection anymore.

With that said, I think the reasoning is wrong. This whole "US is filled with gun lovers that's why there's violence" POV is flawed. Look at UK's violence rate and you'll find out that doesn't hold up. Death by assault rifles is around 5% in the US. More people die from punches and kicks.

The issue should never have been gun laws. It should have been violence reduction. There's a difference, and arguably, the latter isn't being considered cause the former's more "loud" and "exciting".

[/spoiler]


your talking about banning weapons and equipment, such as "high Capacity" magazines, when everything covered under the written ban is 2%, 3% if you include rifles of all actions. one automatic weapon that was legally purchased (like most people would think of when the words "assault rifle" are spoken of in relation to a gun) has been used to commit a crime, and it was committed by a police officer. automatic weapons are not a problem, and are already highly regulated. nor are semi auto "assault rifles" or "high capacity magazines" the deadliest shootings have taken place using pistols, a majority of them actually involved weapons that were NOT covered by any of the bans in place.

Stats since 1984 using "assault weapons" and "high capacity magazines"
[spoiler]The "assault rifle" that was "used" at sandy hook, was pulled out of the trunk of the car that lanza had driven to the school. both pistols that were used have standard clip sizes of 15 rounds, and when you are talking that it takes 5 seconds for anyone who has any expirience whatsoever with a pistol to change the mags and get firing, it doesnt matter how many rounds are in the clip when there is no one there to take advantage of the lapse in seconds (with it being a gun free zone).

so the next latest shooting, the Wisconsin temple. shooter was ex military. probably was still practiced enough to reload in less than 3 seconds. gun free zone

then to aurora, the only gun free theater within 30 miles of his home is his chosen target.

then to September of 2011, shooting with ILLEGALLY PURCHASED, fully automatic, AK-47 in an Ihop in Carson city, Nevada.

on July 7th 2011 in grand rapids, Minnesota. a man with a previous criminal record for a felony assault (not allowed to be in possesion of firearms of any type if you have a felony record, or a violent misdemeanor on your record under federal regulations) killed 7 people at two different houses. firing only 10 shots including the one that he committed suicide with.

January 8th 2011 and gabrielle giffords. no one who was armed and trained was on the scene.

august of 2010. guy stashes firearms at his place of works and gets fired after getting caught stealing, shoots a number of co workers and then kills himself, gun free zone, 11 shots fired (10 round clip plus 1 in the chamber, completely legal under proposed bans)

November of 2009 fort hood. military training, 4 minute gunfight, over 200 rounds fired. only MP's allowed to be armed on base, guns must be unloaded and cased unless at the range.

April of 2009 in NY. gun free zone. 99 shots fired, 13 killed, 4 wounded.

February of 2008. Illinois. gun free zone. 54 shots fired from 4 different guns.

December of 07. Nebraska. gun free mall, committed suicide before police responded.

April of 07. Virginia polytechnic and state university. gun free shcool. banned from ownership of firearms in 05.

(now the clinton gun ban years)
november of 2004. trespassing on someone elses land. SKS rifle (reported to have a 20 round magazine, funny enough SKS's were fed by clips into a built in magazine that only holds 10 rounds, and none of its variants have the 20 round magazine capacity, as well as there being no legal way to modify it to hold 20 rounds.) 6 killed. man caught 5 hours later.

december of 2000. gun free zone. shot 37 times over the course of 6 minutes then dropped his guns and sat in the reception area untill police arrived and arrested him. illegal 60 round clip (marked for law enforcement use only)

november of 1999. gun free zone. 5 hour standoff. 28 shots.

september of 1999. gun free zone. 30 shots, also used a pipe bomb.

april of 1999. columbine. gun free zone. 40 minutes, 2 shooters, Illegallly purchased firearms.

may 1998. thurston high school. oregon. gun free zone. was on suspension for possessing a firearm on the premises.

march 1998. Arizona. gun free zone. 2 shooters, 26 rounds fired. 10 different guns. pulled the fire alarm and waited for everyone to exit the school.

march 1998. Connecticut. Gun free zone (federal building). fired 5 shots. killed 4 plus himself.

december 1997. california. 144 shots. 4 killed 2 wounded.

(and now we are back to pre ban)

June 1994. gun free base. 5 minute shooting. killed by MP's

december 1993. Long Island NY. subway station, unlawful to carry firearms in public without a license.

july 1993. california. Gun free building, shooting happened on 34th floor. committed suicide before police arrived.

october 1991. Texas. rammed truck through wall of diner. two handguns. 100 rounds in 10 minutes, suicide before police arrived.

june 1990. Florida. 2 firearms 14 shots. 8 killed plus self. committed suicide before police arrived.

september 1989. Louisville. 5 guns 21 shots. 8 killed. suicide before police arrived.

january 1989. cleveland elementary. 106 shots. 5 killed. suicide before police arrived.

july 1984. 257 rounds fired in 77 minutes. 21 killed. shot by police sniper.

june 1984. Illegal immigrant to US. 14 round magazines, of which first was emptied into a single person, and the second was dispersed among the crowd. escaped the scene and was caught hours later.[/spoiler]
http://www.nycrimecommission.org/initia ... otings.php
all of these shootings listed took place with "assault weapons" either because of clip size or type of weapon. but I think we can draw other similarities.

- 30 here of which 7 were in areas that were even possible gun allowing zones. 23 were in obvious zones such as federal buildings and schools.

- 25 of these were committed by people whom were known to be mentally unstable prior to the incidents.

- most incidents lasted 5 minutes or longer before being brought to an end.

- only 2 incidents averaged more than 10 rounds per minute, which with a 10 round magazine would be a shot every 4 seconds and 20 seconds to reload, more than enough time for any dummy to accomplish the same thing with 10 round magazines. leading us to believe that a 10 round magazine would have created almost identical results.

- Even looking at the shooters, in 24 of the incidents, the shooters were either registered democrats or grew up in a household of democrats.

-not a single one of these involved a bayonet, so why are bayonet lugs on the list of things to be banned?
***************************************************

I dont blame you for your thoughts Daku, but I think you have been misled as to the true nature and impact of "assault rifles" most people dont know any more about them than what they see in 1) movies and 2) news, and the latter nearly always portrays the guns used in these incidences as the same ones you see in the former, with gun toting guys firing off hundreds of rounds at each other just with a single pull of the trigger.

The target for this 100% should be focused on responsibility. Responsibility with regards to everything we do. responsibility for your actions. In many of these instances, irresponsibility is directly linked to these instances. Losing your job for stealing is irresponsible, blaming someone else for you not having a job is irresponsible, not having your guns secured is irresponsible, allowing someone to be the target of a bully is irresponsible, being the bully is irresponsible. the list can go farther still, but the thing that needs to be put back into the society in the US is RESPONSIBILITY.

[Dexter Morgan™]

And in gun-loving countries like the United States, over 500 dead children past few years because you were irresponsible.

How many children must die for it to be unacceptable ? Please inform us, when guns are causing more harm then good. How high must that number be.

You have to admit they don't solve all your life's problems and should only be authorized to responsible owners who take every security measures that must be taken.

My only last point on this is, I am not turning over my gun to a murdering tyrant called Barack Nobama. The whole system in most of the world, and in the U.S. is corruption. Why would you give your most effective LEGAL weapon to an evil tyrant!!

@ Curt & Dak - Arguing wrong points. Well articulated, but wrong points. You were starting to make sense curt with your "who gets to screen who" for whether they are "stable" enough for their 2nd amendment right. Oh who appoints them? Oh ya, GOVERNMENT.

[curtthehurt1]

And in gun-loving countries like the United States, over 500 dead children past few years because you were irresponsible.

How many children must die for it to be unacceptable ? Please inform us, when guns are causing more harm then good. How high must that number be.

You have to admit they don't solve all your life's problems and should only be authorized to responsible owners who take every security measures that must be taken.

My only last point on this is, I am not turning over my gun to a murdering tyrant called Barack Nobama. The whole system in most of the world, and in the U.S. is corruption. Why would you give your most effective LEGAL weapon to an evil tyrant!!

@ Curt & Dak - Arguing wrong points. Well articulated, but wrong points. You were starting to make sense curt with your "who gets to screen who" for whether they are "stable" enough for their 2nd amendment right. Oh who appoints them? Oh ya, GOVERNMENT.

on the contrary, I think it should be family and friends that work to make sure these people dont harm others, whether that be by getting them to give up their guns, or keeping their own locked up. it's back to the whole "responsibility" speech at the end of my last reply. be responsible to keep your guns away from people whom you know would be a danger with them, whether it be friends, neighbors, or even family such as children. keep the guns locked up in a safe and make sure they dont know the combination or have access to the key until they are fully mature enough to be able to be responsible. be responsible to stop a future problem before it becomes such.

[Dexter Morgan™]

Personal Responsibility.
Not enforced. Or it is not the facade of a free country.

I like the personal responsibility idea. Not the family of, nor, doctors.
If you commit a felony with a fire-arm you are not allowed them in your residence.
That is enough law for me. More law and by-law = more ways to change rules for the ruling class.

[[KMA]Avenger]

Yea, Canada is a total tyrant.

Not if but when the global economy collapses you will soon find out how "good" your govt is.


http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-a ... ze-nominee

The issue should never have been gun laws. It should have been violence reduction. There's a difference, and arguably, the latter isn't being considered cause the former's more "loud" and "exciting".

Your argument fell down right there. go check the FBI numbers for yourself, in the past few years as gun sales have soared violent crime has fallen by 49%. so demanding semi automatic guns be banned to reduce crime is an oxymoron.

And lets get 1 thing straight, full auto guns are already banned in the US, and semi-auto are not assault class weapons. furthermore, a revolver can fire MUCH faster than a semi-auto. true it doesn't have the capacity, but it can fire much faster because unlike semi auto, it doesn't have to recycle to the next bullet.
Shooting fast with a revolver is called fanning.

[xDaku]

It seems you all missed my point.

First of all, I used "assault rifle" as a free lance term assuming you guys could connect the dots.

Secondly, you can never hold personal responsibility in any society. It's not individualistic in high populated areas. Unless you guys wanna go back to the wild west in downtown. That would be great.

Your numbers are skewed KMA. There is absolutely no real correlation that's been proven between the two. You can't just pick two stats and go, yup, those are related.

I already stated that this will not put any reasonable end to the violence. That's the problem with it. The actual law though, is more than reasonable except for extremist freedom shouters who don't recognize removing a harmful object with no necessity from a society.

[curtthehurt1]

It seems you all missed my point.

First of all, I used "assault rifle" as a free lance term assuming you guys could connect the dots.

Secondly, you can never hold personal responsibility in any society. It's not individualistic in high populated areas. Unless you guys wanna go back to the wild west in downtown. That would be great.

Your numbers are skewed KMA. There is absolutely no real correlation that's been proven between the two. You can't just pick two stats and go, yup, those are related.

I already stated that this will not put any reasonable end to the violence. That's the problem with it. The actual law though, is more than reasonable except for extremist freedom shouters who don't recognize removing a harmful object with no necessity from a society.

I think you fail to see ours.

for the purposes of this argument daku, assault rifles are meant to be 1 of 2 things. they are meant to be the rifles that are true assault rifles, of which are banned to the extent that of the 300 Million people in the US, there are less than 200,000 true assault rifles that are allowed to be civillian owned. the guns that most people call "assault rifles" because they look evil like their true assault style counterparts, are used in almost 0 crime. actually less than 2% annually, and that's including all of the other things banned by the clinton gun law, including "high capacity" magazines, which includes many handgun related crimes. combined, when you add that most 9mm pistols come with a standard magazine of 15 rounds, concidered high capacity, you will find that many crimes are committed with these mags that are deemed "high capacity", which also skews the numbers. Pistols are the weapon of choice for 97% of criminals, and 99% of those interested in self defense. Banning the true problem doesnt do any good, because pistols can be smuggled into the country just as easily as the drugs coming across the border with mexico.



I find the fact that as a whole, gun ownership in the US has risen for the past 40 years. while the crime rate nationally has gotten a 49% average reduction over the last 20, gun crime in controlled gun cities remains unchanged, or has even risen.

[xDaku]

Curt, I've already acknowledged that it's not the blame for crimes.

It's also pointless.

[[KMA]Avenger]

Your numbers are skewed KMA. There is absolutely no real correlation that's been proven between the two. You can't just pick two stats and go, yup, those are related.

So you think the FBI's stats are skewed (those are NOT my numbers, they are the FBI's whose own statistics are taken from the local level right across the US and are seen as the gold standard because of how accurate those numbers are) because as gun ownership has exploded (due in very large part to all the gun grabbing going on) and violent crime has dropped there's no relation?


PLEASE! ] (*,)


We are not talking about a couple percentage points here...go see the charts for yourself. they match up as 1 has risen the other has dropped.

[xDaku]

Seen the gun crime stats in the States?

[[KMA]Avenger]

Seen the gun crime stats in the States?

Yes, have you? more kids die from falling off their bikes, bitten by bees and so on than from being shot....iin fact, kids dyng from gun shot is one of the lowest stats.

[xDaku]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... e-us-state

[Dexter Morgan™]

Seen the gun crime stats in the States?

Yes, have you? more kids die from falling off their bikes, bitten by bees and so on than from being shot....iin fact, kids dyng from gun shot is one of the lowest stats.

Well the problem is, we need more regulations on bees and mandatory helmets for ki.....wait they are already doing that with the helmets.

[GrizzZzzly]