Joe Horn: Hero or Villain

[Spacey]

Since things have calmed down here...

Really? What else do you get in return for your time? When you go to work, are you not exchanging your time plus the sweat on your brow for money? It'd be nice if we could all live off the land like they did a hundred years ago, but that's just not feasible anymore

A stay at home mother work at home, but isn't paid. Neither are volunteers.

Time is much more valuable than money. One example is of people that give their time and get nothing in return.

You can always earn another 100 dollars, but you can never, ever get back lost time.

Money can be earned again. Possessions can be replaced... but there is no substitute for lost time: time can never be replaced. It's the same thing with a human life.

This is all well and good (time and money discussion)... but takes us away from what we were talking about (the point of what happened).

hero

although spaceys post got me thinking i still think hero i mean the guy protected his neighbor

His neighbour wasn't home. It was just Mr. Horn and the suspects who were actually there.

[hidden]

sorry i meant the neighbors property

[Spacey]

I think I understand the other viewpoint now...

For many, the act of doing what he did: take a stand against potential crime, makes him a hero (to those people).

[hidden]

although he probably should have just waited for the police or taken a photo

[Spacey]

Ahhh, but thinking a stay at home mother gets nothing in return, is not only flawed, but quite shallow. Her return isn't monetary, it's something deeper and often unseen. Just because she doesn't earn monetary compensation doesn't mean she doesn't get something in return, and trust me, you mess with her "compensation", she'll kill you.

Perhaps someone who thinks that is shallow. Thankfully, I did not.

Righteo, money = time, to EARN money, you have to WORK. Work = trading time + sweat and blood for money. When the money or whatever else you worked hard to get is stolen, so is that time you put in to get it, along with the time you're going to have to spend to get it back, not to mention if you're a family struggling. $100 may not be a alot to you, but to say Sandy it might mean the difference between being able to feed her kids or having to go hungry another couple weeks. People for some reason like to think that when someone steals out of "necessity", then it is forgivable, problem is you forget all about the victim. As I've said, what happens when someone steals from a single mother struggling to survive? What then? Is it still ok because the thief needed the money for his family? Is it not harmful to the children to be forced to go without food, or electricity(especially now in the winter) or even possibly be thrown out of their house?

I was trying to talk about possessions being replaced, and a loss of life. Someone's actual life (the state of being alive) must be worth more than a house or even 1 million dollars?

This is all well and good (time and money discussion)... but takes us away from what we were talking about (the point of what happened).

Not really, I intended it to be about why you think he was right, the point of the time money argument is that, you keep saying money is replaceable but in reality it's not really, because to get money, one must "invest" their time, which irreplaceable, and theft not only nullifies the time you spent getting whatever it was stolen, but also the time it takes to get it back.

hero

although spaceys post got me thinking i still think hero i mean the guy protected his neighbor

His neighbour wasn't home. It was just Mr. Horn and the suspects who were actually there.

Ahh, but as I said, money is more then just a dollar amount, it's also what you put into it, now allow me to expand on that. Money is not only what you put into it, but what you get out of it. In college any time I got any amount of money I didn't see cash, I saw next week's groceries, or shampoo or body soap, whatever it was I needed at the time. No matter how big or small the dollar amount, I always saw something, if it was a buck, well hey that's a hamburger from Mc Donalds, etc. So what if those neighbors needed that money for medical expenses. Maybe one of them was quite sick and that was their prescription money, when Mr Horn stopped those thieves from escaping, he in essence protecting them.

I think I understand the other viewpoint now...

For many, the act of doing what he did: take a stand against potential crime, makes him a hero (to those people).

Yay! Spacey gets it

Indeed I do see it, but I still don't think he is a hero. He may be someone's hero... he just isn't mine. I hope that you'll be able to see the other side, like I've seen: I don't think what I'm saying is getting through.

[MGZ]

after reading the many argumentative posts and the more recent calm ones, I have to say this: Mr. Horn did something a lot of people probably wouldn't do to help his neighbors, and that is heroic. It is regretable that life was lost, but it was only the lives of petty thieves and so the impact is significantly reduced in my eyes. And as to the argument of stealing to survive - in this country of social programs like welfare and homeless shelters and the Salvation Army, theft is not an acceptable option for survival.

all in all, I think Mr. Horn is on the lighter side of the gray scale.

[Fear Of The Duck]

For many, the act of doing what he did: take a stand against potential crime, makes him a hero (to those people).

"potential"???? i'd say he caught them red-handed.

although he probably should have just waited for the police or taken a photo

"waited for the police" - that's what he was doing, but didn't see cops comming, so he did what he did
"taken a photo" - if ya take a photo of a criminal here, ya'll be stabbed to death within a week

to EARN money, you have to WORK.

technically ya don't have to. ya can own assets which earn money for you. here ya get paid for the risk involved.

Ahhh, but thinking a stay at home mother gets nothing in return, is not only flawed, but quite shallow. Her return isn't monetary, it's something deeper and often unseen. Just because she doesn't earn monetary compensation doesn't mean she doesn't get something in return, and trust me, you mess with her "compensation", she'll kill you.

Perhaps someone who thinks that is shallow. Thankfully, I did not.

ironically, that's what most of "modern women" think.

Indeed I do see it, but I still don't think he is a hero. He may be someone's hero... he just isn't mine. I hope that you'll be able to see the other side, like I've seen: I don't think what I'm saying is getting through.

maybe we should agree the definition of a hero. for some ppl a "hero" is mass murderer, terrorist and bandit ernesto guevara de la serna a.k.a. "che"

[Spacey]

What about the people who spent a life time trying to get what they have today? If it were to all be stolen tomorrow then those thieves would be stealing a life time of hard work and effort, it would have all gone down the tubes, and never to be replaced, as people generally do not live for two life times.

Yes jack, I understand that, but those people still have their lives. They still have the potential to sare momment with friends, family, and if a criminal, to change.

No, I see your side of it. I just see it like this. In the state of Texas it is legal to do what Mr Horn did, these criminals knew that, yet they went and broke into someone else's home knowing full well the potential outcome. When they did this, they forfeited their life for the duration of the crime. I do not support the death penalty for theft. But when are people going to start taking responsibility for their actions? They didn't have to break into that house, but they did anyway, and in the middle of the day at that. Someone saw and went to defend his neighbor's property, had they not been there breaking in, they would not have been shot and killed. You say that it isn't worth taking someone's life over goods, fine. Let's look at it this way. Let's say that most of the people in the country are like Mr Horn, and when you break into someone's house you risk losing your life. Well they know this, yet break in anyway. Doesn't that mean that they do not value their own life? If they do not value their life, then why should you or I?

I see a problem in your question then, as I did when I first commented on Texan law. You're asking about right and wrong on the internet with people who are from different countries, who don't agree with what he did. In Texas the law may protect him, but in my country it is considered 1st degree murder.

In Canada, murder is classified as first or second degree.[25]

1. First degree murder is a murder which is (1) planned and deliberate, (2) contracted, (3) where the victim is an identified peace officer (4) in the furtherance of another serious criminal offence (kidnapping, robbery, harassment, terrorist activity, or using explosives within criminal organizations, etc.).

"potential"???? i'd say he caught them red-handed.

I was speaking abstractly.

maybe we should agree the definition of a hero. for some ppl a "hero" is mass murderer, terrorist and bandit ernesto guevara de la serna a.k.a. "che"

or a hero means differnet things for different people.

[semper]

Everyone's beliefs are based on their governments beliefs. How can you say otherwise? You have spent an entire topic telling me how it is legal to kill someone, and you believe in that. So you contradicted yourself again.

[The Iron Duke]

LOL! Owned!

[Spacey]

I see a problem in your question then, as I did when I first commented on Texan law. You're asking about right and wrong on the internet with people who are from different countries, who don't agree with what he did. In Texas the law may protect him, but in my country it is considered 1st degree murder.

Does everyone in Canada base their moral beliefs on what their government says is right or wrong?

No. Personal moral beliefs are not necessarily based on government rules.

But then why said he has legal right? why seek teh shelter of the law to support his case?

meh... I'm out like trout!

[Fear Of The Duck]

Everyone's beliefs are based on their governments beliefs. How can you say otherwise? You have spent an entire topic telling me how it is legal to kill someone, and you believe in that. So you contradicted yourself again.

my are actually opposite to the government's.

well... all i said in this thread is still valid but... on the other hand...

efd61840[1].gif

[Spacey]

Spam split out.