Unbalanced races

[Aram]

To be honest I think the 10% Replicator bonus is useless, now that Tauri and Asgard get 10% off their own weapons. As it is with their awesome bonuses in attack and defence, a replicator has to buy over twice as many weapon just to compete..so that's like spending over twice as much, so the saving on the covert levels doesn't seem that much, especially with the 50 percent lessening of covert price levels..the other races can easily save to match it.
So the replicator race seems unbalanced.
Who agrees?

[Sleipnir]

I think you're mistaken. It's only 10% off troop costs, not the weapons.

[firebrand]

Um, for the guy who feels reps are at a dissadvantage.

To upgrade to spy level 11 now a replicator will save over a million in costs while an asgard would need to train over 500 deffence troops (as if anyone would) to equal a million, the point is the goa'uld came out on top with reps second and tauri and asgard a really, really big last.

[Aram]

I'ts not how many defence troops you have, it's how many arms = defence units that determine ur defense value.

20 - 23 top weapons plus 23 defence units, plus full fortification, will give u a million in defence...this post was not just b/c im a replicator in quantum. I'm an Asgard in the original game.

[Enfant Terrible]

Ok you are complaining about replicators being at a disadvantage? This is totally ridiculous.

The tauri and asgard are already at a disadvantage with their bonuses and now it's even worse. I get 10% of training attackers as a tau'ri?? This is absolutely useless. This does not help in the slightest. And compare it to 10% off replicator spy upgrades? That will save 2 million naquadah when you hit the level 12 upgrade. For me to save 2 million naquadah on my troop upgrades I need to train 10000 attacking units, and this is only to match the savings on one level of spy upgrade. If you consider all the upgrades from 0 - 12 a tau'ri or asgard would need to train about 20000 units just to match it. Right now there are maybe 1 or 2 players in the entire game that have that many units in total. At first I thought the bonus was off weapons which I thought was already not that balanced but off units? I cannot stress how completely and utterly useless this "bonus" is.

I have said it before and I will say it again. The goa'uld and the replicators have the best bonuses and this was my opinion before the new bonuses were in place. Now it's even more in favour of those two races.

The replicators have far and away the best bonus in the game. I can't believe someone would suggest that saving 200 naq to train a unit is better than saving a few million to upgrade spy skill.

Sorry admin but for the most part I think everything that has been done has been equitable, but on this one I have to completely disagree. I don't think this is a bonus in any way at all. I was already questioning the reasoning behind the reduced spy costs since I don't believe that the increased income is anymore of a bonus to tau'ri and asgard. More income for everyone means every upgrade is easier to make be it buying weapons or improving spy skill. The only difference is that spy skills take a bit more time to accumulate but when it's done the bonus is big and it's all at once. I cannot double my defense or my offense any easier than my spy skill. But I heard that tau'ri and asgard would get a bonus to balance it. But off training units? This really does nothing whatsoever. I would prefer removing all the new bonuses.

If the replicators feel that the new bonuses are unfair I'm sure they will be clamoring in agreement that the new bonuses for all the races should just revert to what they were before. But somehow I doubt that will happen because the truth of the matter is that they are completely unbalanced against the tau'ri and asgard.

Since I don't just want to be complaining I will make a suggestion for how I think things could be made more fair. Give the tau'ri and asgard 10% off unit production upgrades.

[I Replicate]

If the replicators feel that the new bonuses are unfair I'm sure they will be clamoring in agreement that the new bonuses for all the races should just revert to what they were before. But somehow I doubt that will happen because the truth of the matter is that they are completely unbalanced against the tau'ri and asgard.

No, I think we would rather things not revert to how it was in the past... actually, I think we would rather replicators get another bonus to make it more 'fair'... and I really dont know if I'm joking or not

I do agree that the game is now tipped in favor of Goa'ulds and Replicators, but it is still better than how it was before. Given time, I'm sure new abilities will be released that balance it out more. Reverting it back to before would make the game more boring... more abilities are needed, not less.

Look at my suggestion for more abilities that should make each race unique: https://talk.gatewa.rs/viewtopic.php?t=1575

[RepliJake]

You are comparing the wrong bonuses, reps were given the decreased spy level to make up for the extra income which means that Tauri and Asguard can get more weapons, which allow them to either steal more naq easier (tauri) or stop attacks easier (asguard) I don't really have a problem with the new bonuses... I wouldn't mind if the reps could get a unit production bonus next as it is fitting to them, replication and all...


Great work as ever Forum....

[Enfant Terrible]

reps were given the decreased spy level to make up for the extra income which means that Tauri and Asguard can get more weapons, which allow them to either steal more naq easier (tauri) or stop attacks easier (asguard)

I understand the reasoning. I believe it is incorrect. The increases income gives me more money and it gives you more money. It gives every race the same increase except the goa'uld who benefit more than anyone.

As to how this extra income improves things. I can spend it on attack weapons or defense or spy. As can you. If I spend it on attack it's more beneficial than if you do. If I spend it on covert it's less beneficial than for you. The fact is though that if everyone gets more naquadah everyone can spend more. It is NOT cheaper for me to improve my weapons now. So giving replicators cheaper spy skill doesn't balance anything. You have a covert bonus of 25% which means that you can destroy the weapons I can buy. So why should reps get cheaper spy skill? 10% off covert is an enormous bonus. I can't attack anyone now that I couldn't attack before the income changed. So the increased income has not helped me more than anyone else.

I think the reasoning is terribly flawed and since there was an acknowledgement that other races receive bonuses apparently it was understood that cheaper spy skill was a huge bonus. But saving 200 naq to train the occasional troop is completely and utterly useless.

The goa'uld bonus is good. I play as a goa'uld as well and that one I think is fair. But the tauri one is pointless and it's not fair. Look at the rankings. There isn't a single tauri in the top 10. Elusive doesn't count. And don't try to tell me it's because the people playing tauri don't know how to play. The tauri are at a serious disadvantage. If you think that because I have a higher strike it's so helpful keep this in mind. My main source of naq is income and NOT attacks.

This is the premise on which your point fails, namely that I can make up for it with better attack because it's just not true.

[justbegladnow]

It seems to me that someone is trying to balance the replicator's perceived weakness with benefits just because they are in last place. I'd venture that they are in last place because they have no players, comparatively, and that's just because they are an uninteresting race. Mathematically, I think spy levels are the name of this game, and the Reps are coming out ahead rather unfairly.

justbegladnow

[Aram]

Taling about reps having an advantage in covert, in which other form of attack do you lose so many units except in spies? As for the Tauri and Asgard, the two races get 10% units and WEAPONS that are their speciality.

When there was no covert defence, Replicators benefitted. Now covert defence makes their benefit useless.

Although a better alternative is to give replicators the ability to cut down their losses from 10 to 5% in successful covert strikes or the ability to kill enemy spies when sabbing.

[Esker]

I don't believe the Tauri or the Asgard really have a bonus at all. This new 200 naquadah saved is really pointless, I actually laughed a little when I saw that bonus.

As for their original "bonuses", couldn't there be some debate on if they really are bonuses?

The Goa'uld get extra money, where is the disadvantage in that? There is none. That is their bonus.

The replicators saved millions upon millions of naquadah in their covert levels. Any disadvantage there? Nope. It's their bonus.

The Tauri can upgrade their attack faster than any other race. BUT WAIT! It comes at the expense of their defensive skill. The defense remains horrible and their overall rank stays low. Not quite the same level of bonus the other races are getting.

Same goes for the Asgard.... that's just my thought on this. For the moment, at least, the Tauri and Asgard are at a considerable disadvantage. Their bonuses have "prices to pay" on them, whereas the other races do not.

These new "bonuses" only give the other races more of an edge than they already had.

[rdb]

Tauri and Asgard get 10% cheaper weapons respective to their bonus aswell Esker

[Esker]

Ahh I guess I posted that either before it happened or before I knew.

Disregard most of what I just said, but keep it in mind.

[Wolf359]

yeah - it was introduced later after Enfant Terrible, me and a couple of others posted some hefty and convincing arguments regarding the initial upgrade.

[Esker]

Well I was going to create an all-new topic for this, but instead i'd like just to bring back this one. I was doing more thinking about the situation with unbalanced races and reading others posts about the same thing. AND I've come up with this following statement, and I REALLY hope some Goa'uld and Reps argue with me here. I really want to know why it is you guys think this situation is more than fair for the Tauri and Asgard.

For starters (because I know this is what I'll hear about more than anything), the 10% off on the respective weapons I have already found to be a blessing on more than one occasion, so you'll get no arguement that it's a very nice thing to have.

However 2560, the strength of non-attack/defense "bonus" races for their best weapons is 560 more than the asgard attack weapon, and 560 more than the tauri defense weapon.

The best offensive weapon for the Tauri is what, 140 more than 2560? Same goes for the asgard's defense. Plus you could factor in the additional tech upgrade for both races, if somebody wants to do that go ahead... it'd probably factor into something much larger than 140 and all, but i'm just sticking to basics for now.

That's why so many Goa'uld and reps occupy the top slots, overall rank for them is much much easier to fly through than a Tauri or an Asgard (because one aspect of their army, whether it be attack or defense, is almost ALWAYS going to be garbage ... well, relatively speaking at least).

Lemme put it this way. A goa'uld invests, for the sake of simplicity, 1.5x as much naquadah into their defense to match an Asgard, and 1.5x as much to match the offense of a Tauri. That's very nice and all, however you forget that that same Tauri must invest AT LEAST (Usually a lot more... again, the "140 < 560" thing) twice as much in his defense to match yours, same goes for the Asgard regarding their attack. Not to mention the Goa'uld get 25% more naquadah and they have no banking fees... but that's not what we're discussing, is it?

This sounds less like an attack "bonus" and defense "bonus" and more of just a trade-off in where the money is spent. There really is no bonus here, because a good "all around" Asgard / Tauri who maintains every skill is going to end up paying just as much (minus the new 10%, which was a very fair move) and getting less of the overall skill a Goa'uld / Rep has.

When I signed up to be an Asgard, beside the fact I enjoy the race on the show ( ), I looked at the "25% defense bonus" and liked the idea. It didn't say "25% defense bonus" and "-30% offense penalty." I very well may have reconsidered upon reading that.

What I propose, and I'm sure (or at least I hope ) many would agree with me here, is that the "560 penalty" is reduced, even slightly, to better even the playing field and make the Asgard's and Tauri's bonus less of a penalty. Honest Reps and Goa'uld must admit there is SOME truth in what I am saying. It is evident when you look at the top 10, overall high ranking is much more commonly owned by the Goa'uld and Reps, despite the fact there are many Tauri and Asgard playing just as good, investing just as much if not more, and still way back, unrecognized.

I know this is a very radical idea, as most players have just come to accept this for what it is. I'm sure lots of Goa'uld and Replicators will say it will make the Tauri and Asgard powerhouses, but that's simply not true. It will give the Tauri and Asgard that by rights, should be powerhouses the rank they deserve.

WHEW... I guess, through my use in third grade math and stale repetition, I'm just trying to say that for an attack "bonus" and a defense "bonus", it comes with an extremely hefty penalty.

Almost too extreme ( ) ...