Bush and Brown On Iran

[Phoenix of Terra]

the question is:

should the civilized nations intervene to stop the barbarities of barbaric nations or should they adopt some kind of a prime directive?

So, intervention vs. isolation?

@Jack I forgot the spaces, I guess.

[Phoenix of Terra]

To the messages!

[smooshable]

We shouldn't kid ourselves here, in the semi-developed world Iran has one of, if not the most brutal regimes there is. No one likes a war and I am sure any reasons for invading Iran would be tainted with greed and corruption to a degree.

But the governing body in the country are brutal thugs. They execute people for a range of crimes including apostacy (leaving the islamic religion), homosexuality, sex outside marriage and peaceful protesting against a corrupt government. They don't disriminate when executing people, men, woman and even children can be killed by the state. Even the very sick and elderly.

The methods of execution are probably the most barbaric still practiced in the world. You're either stoned to death (if you're lucky) or they place a rope around your neck and hoist you up with a crane, slowly strangling you to death under your own weight.

Women are prohibited from driving, showing their faces in public of going anywhere without permission from their owners (husbands/fathers).

I won't be losing any sleep if a cruise missile lands in the Iotolah's kitchen.

[Pink_Bunny]

in my opinion US ain't that better, they still have the death penalty, which most of the developed countries prohibited (no country here in EU has that!), CIA, Homeland Security and a bunch of other agencies can listen to your phones, e-mail and so on... CIA agents have kidnapped hundreds of ppl around the world and transported them to the countries where they could torture them! Torture is still a viable tactic in the US army, despite the conventions! the US also has a very aggressive attitude to the countries that don't suck up to them! (Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, N Korea...) So if you look carefully you see that the US today is VERY similar to the pre-war Nazi Germany! So you see you can't say everything is so black and white, where do you get your facts about Iran? do you thin our western media is capable of objectivity in this mater (it is a different culture after all)... after reading a lot of articles about the war in Iraq you see it's just **Filtered** and full of propaganda! if americans kill 5 freedom fighters (you would call them terrorists) it's a great news and a new step to safer Iraq and so on... But when the civilians are killed no1 will write about it!!! you have to see both sides of the medal before you make statements like that!

[Fear Of The Duck]

are you lying, or ya don't listen to the news or don't read papers or ya're a fighting leftist?
cos all i hear arround me is that civilians died in a bombing, us soldiers killed civilians, israeli rocket destroyed houses etc etc. if theres something about american soldiers gettin' killed it's just a word or two.

[smooshable]

"It's a different culture" only excuses so much. It's called moral relativism. It's why health care is free in Scandinavia and very expensive in the USA. It's why Americans are free to vote or not and there's compulsory voting in Australia. It does not excuse the execution of children, the enslavement of all women and the jailing and persecution of political opposition. America and the other Western powers have done and still do some horrible things but to compare them with the regime in Iran is just craziness. I'm sure a lot of what we hear is over dramasised but a lot isn't. Take a look into the country and you'll see a world that is unrecognizable to the ideals we live by.

[Phoenix of Terra]

Pink Bunny, I'll come back for you after I've slept. That is all for now.

[Phoenix of Terra]

Lol at Jack. Now I'm going to basically break it up where he did and add to his points. Thanks for the foundation to build off of.

in my opinion US ain't that better, they still have the death penalty, which most of the developed countries prohibited (no country here in EU has that!)

Ok let's start with the death penalty.

Can you honestly give me a damn good reason why we shouldn't execute our most vile criminals?

If you've raped a child, or murdered another human, then what right do you have to live? None, for every action we take there is either a consequence or a reward. If you murder someone or rape a child, then you have forfeited your life, the consequence should be death.

The EU is a buncha pansies. I wouldn't ever want to be anything like the EU and thank God for Texas.

Jack kind of summed up my opinion of the death penalty; use it for rapists, pedophiles, murderers (first degree imo, but that's a different debate), and traitors. But I'd also like to direct you to the red text in the post above. Considering Iran still has the death penalty, I'd like to add that you just claimed that Iran isn't a developed country. Way to belittle the side you were supposedly arguing for. Also, China, among others, is looking like it isn't developed either.

CIA, Homeland Security and a bunch of other agencies can listen to your phones, e-mail and so on...

Yes our intelligence agencies can spy on us, but in the EU the ISP's and ad companies spy on them....

Also, most of those things have publicized and the NSA is limited to overseas and buzzwords for electronic surveillance, last I heard (due to new regulations). If you have proof otherwise, feel free to post it.

the US also has a very aggressive attitude to the countries that don't suck up to them! (Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, N Korea...) So if you look carefully you see that the US today is VERY similar to the pre-war Nazi Germany!

Are you serious? I'm sorry but I seem to recall nuclear missiles being placed in Cuba in order to attack America which is/was the reason for the blockade. But I guess that it, like the moon-landing, never happened, eh? I see no reason we should play patty cake with any of the aforementioned nations and only reasons not to. But I'll let PoT explain that, as he'll do a much better job then I ever could.

A couple of reasons why we don't like the above mentioned countries:

Iran- In an unprovoked attack, stormed a US embassy and killed many US citizens, before holding the survivors hostange for over a year; continues to call for the destruction of a soviergn nation (no matter how Israel go here, it's still a nation. Deal with it, the past isn't changing no matter much you want it to.); is supplying insurgents who are killing US troops, and then lays all of the blame in Iraq at the US's feet, despite their provacative actions in the region.

Cuba- Well, besides the above mentioned Cuban missile crisis... can't think of anything. Strange though that you never hear about US families fleeing to the paradise of Cuba, isn't it?

Venezuala- Well, this is a new one. If you've ever heard the phrase "Don't bite the hand that feeds you", tell Hugo Chavez. The US is one of the biggest importers of his "sour" crude because our refineries are some of the few that can process it. In return for actually buying his crude, he insults us whenever he opens his mouth, tries to rally Latin America against us, and nearly goes to war with Colombia, a US ally (despite the fact that Colombia's strike was against internal insurgents recieving aid from Venezuala and Ecuador. Oops.)

N. Korea- Invaded a soviergn nation; starves it's people so it can have a big paper tiger military; deliberately provokes the world (missile launches over Japan, nuclear reactor [now dismantled]).

I suppose next you're going to blame us Americans for Turkey's economic depression, right?

So you see you can't say everything is so black and white, where do you get your facts about Iran? do you thin our western media is capable of objectivity in this mater (it is a different culture after all)... after reading a lot of articles about the war in Iraq you see it's just bull-**Filtered** and full of propaganda! if americans kill 5 freedom fighters (you would call them terrorists) it's a great news and a new step to safer Iraq and so on... But when the civilians are killed no1 will write about it!!! you have to see both sides of the medal before you make statements like that!

"It's a different culture" only excuses so much. It's called moral relativism. It's why health care is free in Scandinavia and very expensive in the USA. It's why Americans are free to vote or not and there's compulsory voting in Australia. It does not excuse the execution of children, the enslavement of all women and the jailing and persecution of political opposition. America and the other Western powers have done and still do some horrible things but to compare them with the regime in Iran is just craziness. I'm sure a lot of what we hear is over dramasised but a lot isn't. Take a look into the country and you'll see a world that is unrecognizable to the ideals we live by.

What he said.

I suppose we should also excuse the Chinese displacing villages for powerplants, executing people in the hundreds a year (as you've already stated the death penalty is bad), harrassing Taiwan, and other things as being a different culture, right? And suicide bombers destroying market places is a time honored tradition, dating back for hundreds of years in Islamic society, yes? Culture can only go so far. Unless you're saying the Aztecs were right in executing thousands to their gods also (after all, it was a different culture and time, right?)

Secondly, do you even read American newspapers? They were the second ones to declare the war lost, right after the Democrats in the 2004 election. Everyday, there is a snippet about how more troops died in Iraq, how more civilians have been killed in a suicide bombing, how this many civs died this month compared to last month and the same for military personnel, and how the entire country is still unstable. If you talk to veterans who have been there on multiple tours, they will tell you the country has improved drastically from past times.

But of course, you wouldn't know, because most Europeans called it quits for combat units a while back, didn't they, despite initial support? At least we have the balls to try and finish correcting our mistakes. You can't just wash your hands of a matter and then sit back and claim innocence, Pilate.

[smooshable]

I do have to admit this is one area I feel the left has got it horribly wrong. Both in Australia and America.

Pulling out of Iraq now is going to cause a humanitarian disaster the likes of which I doubt we've seen. A lot of civilians are going to be slaughtered.

[Phoenix of Terra]

I do have to admit this is one area I feel the left has got it horribly wrong. Both in Australia and America.

Pulling out of Iraq now is going to cause a humanitarian disaster the likes of which I doubt we've seen. A lot of civilians are going to be slaughtered.

If I wasn't headed to bed, I'd add on to that, as I completely agree. But must go to sleep.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i read some of the posts on page one and thought i would just inform you all that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is actually part of the illuminarti and is in bed with the bushes.
and i thought i would also let you guys know that osama bin laden is dead. he was killed in the hills/mountains of Pakistan in the winter of 01. this fact was reported by Chinese, Indian and Japanese news agency's.

I do have to admit this is one area I feel the left has got it horribly wrong. Both in Australia and America.

Pulling out of Iraq now is going to cause a humanitarian disaster the likes of which I doubt we've seen. A lot of civilians are going to be slaughtered.

hmmm...i agree with that...

and i would also like to add that British SAS troops running around dressed as Arabs and shooting the place up doesn't help the situation any either.