9-11 Revisited.. (round 911)

[[KMA]Avenger]

this is aimed primarily at liquid but feel free to reply also to this question everyone...

let me get my facts straight here...are you of the belief that planes and the resulting fires brought down the WTC complex, even tho no plane hit WT7??

is that what you are all saying here?


P.S. lol jim.

[Empy]

Yes.. I'm sure the sheer force of a 100+ story building collapsing right next to, COULDNT HAVE DONE anything.. Do you realize how much an Airplance weighs? A lot... Enough to put enough stress on steel girders (or w/e) that are already weakened by fire so that they collapse..

Also, Obama meant 57 states including parts of US that aren't states like Puerto Rico.. Right? Iuno..

[[KMA]Avenger]

Yes.. I'm sure the sheer force of a 100+ story building collapsing right next to, COULDNT HAVE DONE anything..

no it couldnt since the WTC7 collapsed in the evening and had NO structural damage and only a few small fires and larry silverstien himself stated in an interview that he told the fire dept to bring the building down, i ask you this, how could the fire dept rig a building to collapse in the space of a couple hours from the time he told them to do it to the time it fell?

bringing down a building is an exact science and takes weeks of planning (if not months in some cases), if you want to make sure it doesn't damage other buildings, did superman help the fire dept rig the building?



ok, if the fire was so intense at the point of impact please tell me why there is someone hanging out of the damaged area (in tower 1 i believe it was, could be wrong on that) shouldnt they have been burned to death?
and if not, how could they have held on to the steel girder since it was weakening from so much heat?

also please tell me why there is so much black smoke pouring from both towers?

BTW, black smoke indicates oxygen starved fire, so please think carefully before you answer

i have given facts if your going to debunk what i say then please do it with facts.

[Psi Kiya Trist]

i side with truth

all i need to read. thanks for proving my point.

btw, i admit i'm closeminded. i don't care, so don't accept your opinions.

~_+Psi Kiya Trist+_~

[Juliette]

Smoke becomes black because of a lack of oxygen?!?

What kinds of things burn off black smoke? Plastic garbage bags, tires, rubber, oil, petroleum products, paint and paint thinners. Most chemicals will burn black that's why house fires billow out dark smoke.


So no.. you didn't state a fact there, as far as intel goes.. I would appreciate it if you would give evidence as to why you believe 'black smoke indicates an oxygen starved fire'.

[[KMA]Avenger]

Smoke becomes black because of a lack of oxygen?!?

What kinds of things burn off black smoke? Plastic garbage bags, tires, rubber, oil, petroleum products, paint and paint thinners. Most chemicals will burn black that's why house fires billow out dark smoke.


So no.. you didn't state a fact there, as far as intel goes.. I would appreciate it if you would give evidence as to why you believe 'black smoke indicates an oxygen starved fire'.

Lois, if you look at the footage of the planes impact you will see that most of the jet fuel explodes as the plane impacts the building, the fireballs are on the OUTSIDE of the buildings and not inside, i seriously doubt an aluminum plane wing could cut threw steel girders intact and then explode on the inside of the building.
go watch some footage of the attacks and see for yourself.

black smoke? i read mate besides, there wasnt enough of the type of plastics your talking about in those buildings to make the smoke burn black for so long.


any chance we can have a topic split please?

[Juliette]

Split done.

And "I read" is not stating sources. What makes you think that a black smoke us the result of a lack of oxygen? Because really.. everything I read about smoke says that black smoke is the result of chemicals, not the level of oxygenation.

[semper]

i reckon...

make me president.

Id do a better job than anyone else going atm.

Its a certified promise.

[Nuto vixen]

BTW, black smoke indicates oxygen starved fire, so please think carefully before you answer

i have given facts if your going to debunk what i say then please do it with facts.

You are correct. Fires which are burning strong usually burn with a grey, more white-ish smoke.

Fires that are lacking oxygen ie; burning out/ dying off give off black smoke.

Avenger is correct when he says it doesn't make sense that the BOTH buildings collapsed when the fire was mostly on the outside of the plane, and it seems they were dying out.

I have read through your posts on this topic, and I too had the same reaction to you when this first happened. "OMG!! BLOW UP WHOEVER OR WHATEVER DID THIS", and I am an Australian.

The thing is, we probably got as much press about this story as America did, because they wanted us to get on board and we are basically the smaller, more tropical version on America anyway these days.

The Sep 11 attacks made many Australia's mad, including me. It's easy to be blinded by anger when you think someone had just killed innocent people for their religious extremist views.

After time, I began seeing the other sides of the story and all the things that just didnt add up. I watched Fahrenheit 9/11. I quite enjoyed seeing a view that wasn't what the White house wanted us to see.

So it makes me an idiot to think this guy is right? It makes people idiots to suggest that because we wont just blindly follow the words of the Presidents and Presidential script writers?

I think it makes us much much more open minded than the rest of the population who are happy to settle for "whatever the guy in charge says is true".

You need to research the facts in order to come to a logical conclusion, but you also need to research BOTH SIDES of the coin, not just the one that's more appealing to your beliefs.

However this election goes, I just hope that whoever gets into power can clean up some of the mess the current president has made for us all.

Our country has just done that, so we need to have hope.

[Juliette]

*facepalm*

Okay then.. I yield the case to whoever thinks reason can get anyone anywhere.



Ya know, this whole conspiracy crap convinces me of the fact that we're looking at the End of Times. Yup. You people occupy yourself with 'researching' non-essential information, so much that if one day you are handed the keys to the kingdom, you will have no clue what to do with them.. in the hypothetical case that you *could* prove the government, all governments, is/are evil, what are you going to do about it that you are not already doing? Make Youtube videos to convince others? Been there, done that. Write annoyingly long essays filled with fallacies and rhetoric in order to 'convince' others? Been there, done that. Shut up and let nature take its course? Hell no. Congratulate other conspirationists with your 'victory', namely proving the government is evil, without considering the effects of your anarchist stories? Been there.. still doing that.


Your behaviour is unnatural. If you seek to challenge the alpha male of this earth, do so in a face-to-face confrontation, or accept your role as an inconsequential nuisance.
((For the record; there is nothing wrong with being an inconsequential nuisance.. 99.95% of the human race is inconsequential, and an even larger group is a nuisance, so we're in good company.)

No.. I'm not going to enter the discussion again. I have in the past written down my views, and instead of logical counterarguments all I got was a bunch of loonies claiming to be 'shocked' and that I was 'arrogant' to presume the things I presumed, accusing me of being 'elitist' and that "naturally, I would be part of a 'better' group" (without me ever making such claims).. no.. I have learnt my lessons well.

1. Do not debate with fanatics.
2. Do not debate with lunatics.
3. Know the difference.
4. Live your life, be happy and glad with the small things, and don't let your time and mind be consumed by the desire to answer all questions man can ask themselves.
5. Do not let the above blind you, but let it keep you happy and focused on your life, instead of allowing unprovable machinations from an unseen deity/government/secret society/etc. to rob you of your pleasure in life.
6. Do not debate with fanatics.
7. Do not give a crap when they call you "closeminded" for being happy with what life gives you.
8. Do not be lured into calling them "closeminded" for doing their thing, no matter how strange it may seem to you.
9. Do not (for a single second) believe that every human being has the capacity for logical reasoning. You will be disappointed.
10. Respect all, and in the interest of peace of mind, allow yourself to be called an idiot by those who reach/seek enlightenment.


But hey, who am I? Just another court jester in the game of life.

[[KMA]Avenger]

thanks for the support nuto

@ everyone,people keep asking me the same question over and over, "where is your proof", the one thing i hate is leading people and i prefer they find out for themselves.
i'm not an egotist and have absolutely nothing to gain by all this and i'm definitely not a geek, i'm not even that good at using search engines so much of what i say can take me days and sometimes weeks to confirm and put to the test BEFORE i post anything like this.

i never ask anyone to take me at my word, all i simply ask is that people go away and look things up for themselves because if i can find this info, ANYBODY can!

nearly everyone i try and talk to about such matters does not see the message but the messenger because they judge people who believe as i do by what they read and see in the media and what they hear from our leaders who say things like "let us not entertain outrageous conspiracy theory's"
i'll tell you guys an outrageous conspiracy theory...

the attacks were carried out by bin laden and al qaeda and that the towers collapsed because of plane impacts and the resulting fires melted the steel...

thats an outrageous conspiracy theory right there for you!

heres my proof that the fires (even if they were burning with all the oxygen they needed) could not have melted the steel:

* 1535ºC (2795ºF) - melting point of iron
* ~1510ºC (2750ºF) - melting point of typical structural steel
* ~825ºC (1517ºF) - maximum temperature of hydrocarbon fires burning in the atmosphere without pressurization or pre-heating (premixed fuel and air - blue flame)


ok, lets consider 1 more fact here, its fact those buildings fell in free fall speed, that means if you stood at the top of the towers and dropped a brick it would hit the street below in just under 10 seconds, if the buildings collapsed because the fires melted the steel and it started a pancaking of the building there would have been resistance between 1 floor collapsing on to the one below and then that floor pancaking on to the next, i would say it would take 35 maybe 45 seconds and possibly longer for a pancaking building to hit rock bottom.

if the building had pancaked as the official story claims doesn't that mean you would have had a pile of pancaked floors on the ground? not all of the floors but there definitely would have been some floors from the top of the building left somewhat intact and clearly recognizable as a floor.

instead what do we have, a building collapsing in free fall speed and everything on the ground completely pulverized

that defies all logic and reasoning!

[Juliette]

I'm beginning to think we should create yet another topic.. called "Criticisms and arguments against Conspirationists", which would be read-only for conspirationists.
After all, that way they might even read what others have to say, instead of spewing forth generic non-sense. But hey.. that's just me.




I'm getting awfully close to a motion for a lock on this kind of one-sided debate, as the basic rule of debate is "Listen to each other". I can see that clearly is not happening here, so unless the Conspirationists step up the quality of their arguments (generic responses are closer to spam as to actual contributions to the thread), and those remaining defenders of natural logic should make their presence known.


If that does not happen, I will see the stage closed for this kind of non-debate. This is no Rant-Section, for crying out loud.








Avenger: You fail to account for the fact that steel loses over 50% of its integrity at that temperature (maximum temperature of hydrocarbon fires burning in the atmosphere without pressurization or pre-heating).
And please.. no more "Everyone.." posts.. be specific in who you're arguing against. Don't draw in generic counterarguments of either good or dubious quality, please.

[[KMA]Avenger]

no its not a rant section so why don't you start by challenging my logic and facts and maybe we might get somewhere...wouldn't you agree?

ok, steel loses 50% of its strength, i've seen architects and structural engineers who have all gone on record AFTER they studied the design of the buildings and stated as fact that the buildings steel had enough redundancy to maintain the integrity of the buildings and quite possibly the buildings could have withstood multiple impacts because of the buildings unique design


if the steel had weakened and had melted, the top of both buildings would have been lopsided and quite possibly could have sheared of and left the rest the building intact, or at the very least the buildings would have fallen sideways, instead the buildings fell straight down into their own footprint, a classic example of demolition, yes?

we haven't even touched upon the many eyewitness accounts of fireman and building employees who reported explosions coming from the basement, or the fireman stationed in the lobby who reported that the granite walls were exploding and the many other reports from civilians running out of the buildings claiming they witnessed people coming out of the elevators and on fire.