new fortification / seige balancing (affects att/def ranking

[THE SAZ]

Did you not just see the numbers I gave???!!! Tell me - HOW WAS THAT FAIR!!!

Tsk. Get over it. These new updates make the game more balanced for everyone.

[Sleipnir]

I think this was a step in the right direction, yes, but it appears to have been tipped in favor of the Goa'uld. Why? Did they have some previous disadvantage that I was unaware of?

No.

Simply put, the Asgard and Tauri had bonuses that were too big, even though they had drawbacks. But overall, they were the ones with more power. Now those races have been balanced, but instead of pulling it all down, the other 2 races were pulled up slightly. We could also suggest to reverse that and tone down the Tauri and asgard even further, but I bet you wouldn't agree to that.

[Apocalypse.]

Now it has balanced out, and I'm glad.

that makes 2 of us....

Make that three a lot of the top tauri and asgard complain or point out how much more they have to invest to get comparable defense and offense somethign decent recon also shows that most tarui and asgard players in the top 25 have a lot more wepaons (defense for tauir and attack for asgard) in thier negative area to offset that blance u get cheaper attack weapons which means that u got a boast on defense and a cut on attack that won't cost u as much to regain .

[Apocalypse.]

Did you not just see the numbers I gave???!!! Tell me - HOW WAS THAT FAIR!!!

Tsk. Get over it. These new updates make the game more balanced for everyone.

i will back this opion up i reconed many a trauri will 25-30 X302's and a strike of over 2 million of ocruse that was before the upgrade

[Enfant Terrible]

Did you not just see the numbers I gave???!!! Tell me - HOW WAS THAT FAIR!!!

Tsk. Get over it. These new updates make the game more balanced for everyone.

It wasn't fair, but it worked against the tau'ri and not the goa'uld. The reason quite simply being that yes you need more attack weapons to match the tau'ri strike, but the tau'ri needed way more defense weapons to match a goa'uld defense.

The problem with this is only that as a tau'ri it is essentially impossible to build a defense that can actually defend against an attack. Any defense was just a token defense to help with ranking. Before these changes I could have sold my entire defense and it wouldn't have made any difference at all to how "safe" my money was.

So this has helped the tau'ri. Now this being said it hasn't helped them enough. The goa'uld and reps bonuses still give them a significant advantage.

I also believe that this change may have hurt the asgard since I don't think their attack was improved enough, although some asgard might want to indicate whether this is true or not.

you get about 79000 per attack weapon before the change and now it's gone down about about 16000 which is a 21.5% drop

you get about 16800 before the change which went up about 4100 which is a 24.5% increase.

This is a benefit.

There is a second hidden benefit to this but I will let people try to work that one out themselves since it's somewhat strategic.

What are you referring to? What are these numbers? I don't see it.

These are the numbers that the tau'ri get added to their strike and defense for each additional 167k weapon.

So before we got 76000 (Woops made a typo in the original post) per x302, and now it's anput 59000.

Defensively before it was about 16000 per ion cannon and now it's about 20000

Those numbers are assuming that for the purchase of one of these weapons an offensive away team is trained to equip it.

I was going to actually make a lengthy post about all this showing the costs for all 4 races to make improvements to reach an identical level in all 3 areas. But then Forum had to go and make things more even and I have to rework it all to see, but after briefly looking at the new tau'ri bonus, the tau'ri still have to pay about 18% more to create the same position as a replicator (before these new changes it cost about 26% more).

[Asger]

Did you not just see the numbers I gave???!!! Tell me - HOW WAS THAT FAIR!!!

Tsk. Get over it. These new updates make the game more balanced for everyone.

Yes Asgard/Tauri Bonus side where high but everyone keeps looking at only one side of the picture without including the negative from the otherside.

(These are not exact just what I roughly remember from a couple days ago)
45 weapons ~2.3M defense for Asgard
45 weapons ~800k attack

[Esker]

As an Asgard I can say that my only complaint that I really feel has a foundation is that there wasn't enough of an attack upgrade for the defensive hit I just took.

As you put it, my attack is still very much a "token" attack. (BTW with that one simple term you've said almost everything i've been trying to say. lol)

[Aram]

Alot of moaners on the board I see. Firstly, everyone knows I'm a Replicator on Quantum, but I do play Asgard on the main game. Now let me point out a few facts.

Asgard defences and Tauri attacks are WAY WAY more than 25%, in the region of more like 80% higher, with the extra upgrades etc. An example is in Quantum where I had over twice as many defensive weapons as a Tauri and yet his attack equaled mine. So not only was he getting a 10% discount in his choice of weapons, but on top I had to pay OVER double for defensive weapons. Now you say Replicators get 10% off in covert. let me point out something, covert strikes lose you the most men, a minimum of 10% every SUCCESFUL sab. So then you have to buy more spies, cutting into your naq generation. And with things like covert defence, the Replicator advantage is nullified. As for 10% off covert levels, it only affects other races seriously when covert levels get to the level 12 and above mark. And how many ppl bother with that? Areplicator can barely save enough for level 12, having to concentrate on building his defence. Forum is right, the replicators are the most challenging race to play.

In my opinion a truly fair tweak would be that replicators don't lose spies in succesful sab strikes or atleast only lose 5 percent instead of 10%. For all those Tauri and Asgard moaners out there, it would serve you right if Forum actually made ur attacks and defence MERELY 25% stronger, even if you got normal defences and attacks. And if you want numbers, a Replicator would have to spend over 13 million naquada EXTRA to equal the attack rank of a Tauri with 40 top attack weapons. With the new update admittedly it may have gone down by a million or 2, but even 10 million extra at this early point in the quantum game is ALOT. Imagine in a month how much extra a Rep, and for that matter, a Guaold would have to pay to stop Tauri attacks. And then the Reps and Guaold have to spend the same amount EXTRA to combat the Asgard defence. So that's an extra 20-24 MILLION naq for a balance. So stop being pathetic! The reps are the ones who are truly screwed.

[Esker]

Alot of moaners on the board I see. Firstly, everyone knows I'm a Replicator on Quantum, but I do play Asgard on the main game. Now let me point out a few facts.

Asgard defences and Tauri attacks are WAY WAY more than 25%, in the region of more like 80% higher, with the extra upgrades etc. An example is in Quantum where I had over twice as many defensive weapons as a Tauri and yet his attack equaled mine. So not only was he getting a 10% discount in his choice of weapons, but on top I had to pay OVER double for defensive weapons. Now you say Replicators get 10% off in covert. let me point out something, covert strikes lose you the most men, a minimum of 10% every SUCCESFUL sab. So then you have to buy more spies, cutting into your naq generation. And with things like covert defence, the Replicator advantage is nullified. As for 10% off covert levels, it only affects other races seriously when covert levels get to the level 12 and above mark. And how many ppl bother with that? Areplicator can barely save enough for level 12, having to concentrate on building his defence. Forum is right, the replicators are the most challenging race to play.

In my opinion a truly fair tweak would be that replicators don't lose spies in succesful sab strikes or atleast only lose 5 percent instead of 10%. For all those Tauri and Asgard moaners out there, it would serve you right if Forum actually made ur attacks and defence MERELY 25% stronger, even if you got normal defences and attacks. And if you want numbers, a Replicator would have to spend over 13 million naquada EXTRA to equal the attack rank of a Tauri with 40 top attack weapons. With the new update admittedly it may have gone down by a million or 2, but even 10 million extra at this early point in the quantum game is ALOT. Imagine in a month how much extra a Rep, and for that matter, a Guaold would have to pay to stop Tauri attacks. And then the Reps and Guaold have to spend the same amount EXTRA to combat the Asgard defence. So that's an extra 20-24 MILLION naq for a balance. So stop being pathetic! The reps are the ones who are truly screwed.

For somebody who has "experience" as an Asgard you are apparently... not thinking about all sides of things.

We Asgard have to pay millions upon millions to match a Goa'uld / Replicator Attack strength. And millions more to match a Tauri. So don't even try "moan"ing about this.

The difference being, you guys save, and will continue saving, millions as you upgrade your covert action. And don't even bother suggesting not losing spies on a sab mission. That's rediculous. That would destroy the ENTIRE purpose that people don't just sab somebody uncontrollably merely for attack them lightly.

You want to talk about overpowered races, THAT there would create an overpowered race. Don't forget, also, that Asgard and Tauri lose men from sabotage as well. Reps aren't the only ones who have to upgrade in covert action, we all do. You just do it cheaper.

And the fact that you have to pay EXTRA to get by an Asgard defense, big deal. That's the point. If you are so concerned with matching your defense with a race who has a BONUS in it, and your attack with a race who has a BONUS in it, than naturally you will end up spending millions extra.

You don't see the Asgard complaining about Tauri's attack strength, or the Tauri complaining about Asgard's defensive action.

We are talking about, at least, getting closer to the strike or defensive of races that don't even have a bonus in it in the first place.

[Enfant Terrible]

I've actually made all the calculations that would give each race about 1.5 million strike, defense, and covert. I included all the bonuses, discounts etc. for every race. It involved specifically giving everyone spy level 11 with about 732 spies. (so if as you say the rep bonus only kicks in at level 12 things would look even better for the reps if I raised that). It also involved giving everyone big weapons with all the siege and fortification upgrades and trained units for those weapons so that their strike and defense was 1.5 million. It included a modifier for the goa'uld income bonus and for their banking bonus. The assumption was that about 2/3 of income is generated through turn based naq and 1/3 through attacks and that 2/3 of all naq generated is banked.

The total costs for each race to achieve this was:

Replicators: 30.3 million naq

Goa'Uld: 32.5 million naq

Tau'ri: 35.8 million naq

Asgard: 36.2 million naq

This means that is costs the goa'uld 7% more than reps. The tau'ri have to pay 18% more than reps. and the asgard have to pay 19% more than reps.

And don't forget as you said Aram, the reps bonus really kicks in after level 12 so if you really want I can work it out for that and see how much more of an advantage the replicators have.

As for the new changes it has only helped the tau'ri. Before the changes were made the tau'ri needed to shell out 38 million which was 25% more than reps so the playing field has been evened out a bit.

[Jean Gregoire Gabriel]

...And with things like covert defence, the Replicator advantage is nullified. [1] As for 10% off covert levels, it only affects other races seriously when covert levels get to the level 12 and above mark. And how many ppl bother with that? [2]

In my opinion a truly fair tweak would be that replicators don't lose spies in succesful sab strikes or atleast only lose 5 percent instead of 10%. For all those Tauri and Asgard moaners out there, it would serve you right if Forum actually made ur attacks and defence MERELY 25% stronger, even if you got normal defences and attacks. And if you want numbers, a Replicator would have to spend over 13 million naquada EXTRA to equal the attack rank of a Tauri with 40 top attack weapons. With the new update admittedly it may have gone down by a million or 2, but even 10 million extra at this early point in the quantum game is ALOT. Imagine in a month how much extra a Rep, and for that matter, a Guaold would have to pay to stop Tauri attacks. And then the Reps and Guaold have to spend the same amount EXTRA to combat the Asgard defence. So that's an extra 20-24 MILLION naq for a balance. So stop being pathetic! The reps are the ones who are truly screwed. [3]

Ok, for point 1, the parallel here is the introduction of the bank - making attack turns and attack power ridiculously cheap and similarly massive defences were unnecessary when you could hide all your money away.

For 2, I know a fair few people.

3 - I think that's not quite balanced. If you were to spend all that money to 'balance' I believe you would also find yourself much higher in the rankings than your Tauri unless he/she spent around 3 times what you paid more to match your defense to be properly balanced.

I don't think anyones bonuses are now ridiculous - perhaps before the Tauri/Asguard were too specialised but I'm sure there were ways of dealing with it. Anyways, I don't care anymore - I believe the races are fairly well balanced, and if not quite then maybe more time should be spent getting adjusted to the new updates before people demand other things.


J.G.G.
who has a view of the whole picture(?)[/b]

[IcER]

I've actually made all the calculations that would give each race about 1.5 million strike, defense, and covert. I included all the bonuses, discounts etc. for every race. It involved specifically giving everyone spy level 11 with about 732 spies. (so if as you say the rep bonus only kicks in at level 12 things would look even better for the reps if I raised that). It also involved giving everyone big weapons with all the siege and fortification upgrades and trained units for those weapons so that their strike and defense was 1.5 million. It included a modifier for the goa'uld income bonus and for their banking bonus. The assumption was that about 2/3 of income is generated through turn based naq and 1/3 through attacks and that 2/3 of all naq generated is banked.

The total costs for each race to achieve this was:

Replicators: 30.3 million naq

Goa'Uld: 32.5 million naq

Tau'ri: 35.8 million naq

Asgard: 36.2 million naq

This means that is costs the goa'uld 7% more than reps. The tau'ri have to pay 18% more than reps. and the asgard have to pay 19% more than reps.

And don't forget as you said Aram, the reps bonus really kicks in after level 12 so if you really want I can work it out for that and see how much more of an advantage the replicators have.

As for the new changes it has only helped the tau'ri. Before the changes were made the tau'ri needed to shell out 38 million which was 25% more than reps so the playing field has been evened out a bit.

Those calculations back up what my 'gut feeling' about the races were after I learnt how to play. Goa'uld well on top with their extra income to get there first, then reps and finally tauri and asgard having a bit of a gap to catch up.

And claiming we can make it up with our superioir attack isnt right either, i mean asgard are lacking on the offensive front, and although the tauri have good attack there is no real reason the goa'uld and reps cant take down the same targets. All my targets, save 1 or 2 exceptions, have been nowhere near my strike power and so easily could have been taken down by goa'ulds or reps.

[species8472]

I hate these changes aswell... it really slows me down. I always though the asgard and tauri were *slightly* disadvantage but with these changes they make it a bit worse. Now there is acctually a recocnisable difference. Overall i think the changes are good and they balance the game more but DONT introduce them halfway through the round. I HAVE 0 DEFENCE. lol i dont care if u all know that cause ull only ever get a hundred or maybe 2 hundred naq off me, these changes massively affect me, i have 100 X-302's on quantum wars and because of this the changes drop my strike action and rank a fair bit. I used to be hovering around the 6-7 rank in strike and now im struggling to keep top 10. because i have 0 defense it just hampers me not makes it better. I would not have played this way if i had know the change would happen cause it is a disadadvantage. I would like it to be changed back to what it was on quantum and maybe put in place during next round because i think it is a good change but just dont slap it in during the middle of a round where people are at a stage where they have to keep playing the way they are or get totally screwed over.

[species8472]

i am not going to reduce every bonus to nothing, and add 25% to the races...

sure - this is a bit more complicated - but a lot more interesting/challening and flexible.

if people would start playing and figure out how it works, and how they can benefit from their races' abilities, instead of pinpointing what looks 'bad' to them, i am sure it would be more fun

from the answers here, i can tell people do not understand how things are currently working ... before suggesting changes, that would be a first step.

if you want it simple, so that you get it right away, it makes a far less challenging game...

trust me - it is balanced in that everyone can do well, or poorly, based on their play.... equal on all fronts? no - equal opportunity to succeed or fail - yes ...

Just was reading that... Sure it makes it more balance but only for CERTIAN ways of playing... i play with NO DEFENSE. Is it that really fair to just cut 1-2MILL out of peoples attack who play the way i do... i worked hard to get 6 ranked strike and then bam, get hit by a update that makes it hard to keep top 10. this is in quantum wars btw. For the main server it is a good change but on quantum i dont like it.