some question as to the validety of conspiracys and....

[S0lid Snake]

Front of the pentagon:-

back of the pentagon:-

Cgi plane added for scale:-


In the first image where are the two engines? which are made from titanium & weigh several tons.

Titanium melts at (3135°F) 1725°C

Kerosene open air burning temperatures (549.5 °F) 287.5 °C

kerosene confinement burning temperature (1112°F) 600°C to (1832°F) 1000°C

So they didn't melt away now did they!

Where is the damage from where the wings should have hit?

Many employees at the pentagon claim to have smelled cordite, which is an explosive compound, This is coming from military personnel that know what their talking about.

Too many unanswered questions!!!

A link to more detailed info

[Demeisen]

yo kma can you pls write a list of your reasons prooving how 9/11 was done by the us government. do like a top 10 of the so-called 'truths' about 9/11 from your view point.

i honestly cant be bothered for complex paragraphs atm. so pls do a 10 point argument thats clear and simple. be as brief as possible. then i can see what you are saying and do a clear response to your claims. cool?

[S0lid Snake]

yo kma can you pls write a list of your reasons prooving how 9/11 was done by the us government. do like a top 10 of the so-called 'truths' about 9/11 from your view point.

i honestly cant be bothered for complex paragraphs atm. so pls do a 10 point argument thats clear and simple. be as brief as possible. then i can see what you are saying and do a clear response to your claims. cool?

Why do you ignore the facts in my last post???

Is it because you can't find fault with it...

Seems your the one who is being inconsistant here, you take every oppertunity to ridcule anyone who questions the status quo.

Even when you do respond, it's always snide remarks as to the sanity of the person presenting their arguments.

If fact why do you even bother to post on such issues, if you have such a problem with the reponses???

Even the most stoic non-believes can see some sense in what the "Conspiracy Club" says.

Conspiracy has been given a bad image by governments and people such as yourself liquid.

Kma, don't bother with the 10 points, he'll just waste your time & efforts with smartalec remarks.

"The public has a duty to watch its Government closely and keep it on the right track." --Lieutenant Gen. Kenneth A. Minihan, USAF, Director, NSA, _NSA Newsletter_, June 1997 In regards to Operation Northwoods.

Operation Northwoods

The 9/11 Reichstag Fire

Go talk to Jesse ventura on the WTC buildings collapsing at the rate of gravity. He's an ex-navy seal trained in demolition.

Still not there yet?

How about that passport which is fire proof, fell out of the plane when it hit and ended up on the street? Couldn't find those pesky blackboxes which would set it all straight, now could they?

As far as I know, all planes had tracking systems, New York has airports & traffic control don't they. They have procedures to follow after losing comms.

Norad should have easily dealt with these 4 planes, they could have had Fighter Jet on the planes wings in minutes. If this isn't true, I hope Russia & China don't find out that the America Air Defence is useless, if they did they might just invade.

If the Bush administration was not involved, then they might just have sat back and let it happen, they must have been saying "this is our lucky day"
This amounts to gross negligence on the governments part and warrants impeachment at the very least.

Don't even get me started on Skul & bones 322 and all that nasty stuff.

Did anyone see Arnie with his SS Belt buckle?????



Check this out:-



Hmmmm who else likes eagles.



Arh yes, NAZIS.


Quote around the pyramid is "Annuit Coepti, Novus Ordo Selcorum" Translation "He approves, New Order of the Ages"

And here:-



Wake up and smell the fascism:-



Sorry America, you've been had.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i truly dont understand people, a building employee heard explosions coming from the basement area . . .

Right, you can rule that out because the building did not start falling from the bottom. And if the guy did hear other explosions, it was probably from the fire. Plus I hope your not getting confused with the 1993 bombing.

what the hell are you talking about?

1stly, i did not mention the 93 bombing.

2ndly, i will just ignore the comment the buildings collapsed from the ground up because frankly, thats just dumba$$ talk and i dont take you for a dumba$$.

3rd, the planes hit in the top of building, have you seen schematics of the building?
i have seen them and there was no elevator that went from the bottom all the way to the top. to get to the top from the ground floor you need to take an elevator a third of the way up and get another to the 2nd 3rd of the building and then get yet another elevator to get to the top, so if there were fires and explosions in the basement as many have claimed then logic dictates that there would have been explosions and fires not connected with the planes impact on the buildings...

i think sherlock holmes sums it up best with these 2 quotes ...

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. It is stupidity rather than courage to refuse to recognize danger when it is close upon you."

"It was easier to know it than to explain why I know it. If you were asked to prove that two and two made four, you might find some difficulty, and yet you are quite sure of the fact."

and you say dont play that card, are you SERIOUSLY suggesting ALL the 9/11 survivors and rescuers are lying?

Yeah, see that's what I'm talking about. You trying to twist my words around and all this BS as an attempt to make me look bad. Its not going to work and you might as well give it up.

see thats what you fail to see and realize, i am not out to make you look bad and have absolutely zero interest in making you look bad because it serves no purpose at all...

get it?

and what about the pentagon, i have seen photos before the impacted part of the pentagon actually collapsed and the hole is only 16 foot wide...wheres the plane?

What photos?

if you tried doing some research before being so quick to ridicule people like me and labeling us as "nutcases" you will find the information and the pictures for yourself!



so going back to the original point of this debate...why is it so hard to believe when the evidence (as well as the pictures which have been supplied by S0lid Snake) is staring you in the face?

[Kieltyka]

1stly, i did not mention the 93 bombing.

Oh Lord sweet Jesus in Heaven. Didn't say you did. Just said I hope your not getting confused with the '93 bombing.

2ndly, i will just ignore the comment the buildings collapsed from the ground up because frankly, thats just dumba$$ talk and i dont take you for a dumba$$.

Once again, didn't say it did. Just said you can rule the possibility out that the Twin Towers started to collapse from the bottom.

3rd, the planes hit in the top of building, have you seen schematics of the building?
i have seen them and there was no elevator that went from the bottom all the way to the top. to get to the top from the ground floor you need to take an elevator a third of the way up and get another to the 2nd 3rd of the building and then get yet another elevator to get to the top, so if there were fires and explosions in the basement as many have claimed then logic dictates that there would have been explosions and fires not connected with the planes impact on the buildings...

i truly dont understand people, a building employee heard explosions coming from the basement area and you say dont play that card, are you SERIOUSLY suggesting ALL the 9/11 survivors and rescuers are lying?

Ok . . .

if you tried doing some research before being so quick to ridicule people like me and labeling us as "nutcases" you will find the information and the pictures for yourself!

I've seen just about every photo there is. When the 9/11 attacks happened, I remember watching CNN. People heard secondary explosions and instantly people thought they were demolition explosives planted in the buildings. That's when the whole conspiracy that the government was involved started. Like I mentioned before, people assume things way too quickly.

Also, all the people that would be involved to pull the 9/11 attack off would big a massive proportion. We're talking about, The Bush Administration, the Government, New York City, structural engineers, the CIA, FBI, FEMA, American Airlines, United Airline, Logan, Newark and Dulles Airpor, people who installed the demolitions, people who detonated the buildings, NYC fiire fighters and police, PBS, and Popular Mechanics. Yes, Popular Mechanics debunked many conspiracy theories, so they must be involved also.

Besides, why would our own government do this? How would they benefit? I mean, the Pentagon was hit and what good did that do? Did our government hit the Pentagon just for effects? What about the plane that crashed into a field that was heading towards the White House? I guess the government did that just for fun.

[Thriller]

their is an old saying that says "all prophecies are eventually proven true" (something along those lines). What this means is that people find events to prove the prophecy but the prophecy never predicts the events (manifest destiny).

[Phoenix of Terra]

This debate boils down to one point.

Are our bureaucrats able to swallow their humanity and stiffle their conciences in order to serve a small group or power greedy elites who rule from the shadows in such a way that harms their fellow citizens, and still remain silent about it?

On one side, we have the optimistic establishment supporters, who will do their best to debunk such claims. On the other, there is the pessimistic freedom fighters, who see the shadow government in every negative action. Personally, if the old Press Secretary isn't willing to keep his mouth shut on Bush policies, I fail to see how the thousands that would be needed for a 9/11 size operation could all keep quiet, especially with the resources available for squealing.

Oh, and solid snake...
[spoiler]


Stupid comparison. Before either of those, the eagle was used by the Romans. Considering the large influence the Romans and other classical cultures played on the formation of the USA (along with Locke and other 17th-18th century sociopolitical writers), it only makes sense why the noble bird became the national bird of the States way back during the formation of the country. George Washington even fancied himself another Cinncinatus. The Nazis can nearly a century and a half after the Americans adopted the eagle. Fail.

Comparisons such as this one are part of the reason why us nay-sayers can't take you seriously. I wonder if you look at the stars and see a giant alien armada marching to Earth's destruction?[/spoiler]

[Thriller]

yay POT has some common sense as well, Are you still in love with Starry?

[[KMA]Avenger]

1stly, i did not mention the 93 bombing.

Oh Lord sweet Jesus in Heaven. Didn't say you did. Just said I hope your not getting confused with the '93 bombing.

2ndly, i will just ignore the comment the buildings collapsed from the ground up because frankly, thats just dumba$$ talk and i dont take you for a dumba$$.

Once again, didn't say it did. Just said you can rule the possibility out that the Twin Towers started to collapse from the bottom.

3rd, the planes hit in the top of building, have you seen schematics of the building?
i have seen them and there was no elevator that went from the bottom all the way to the top. to get to the top from the ground floor you need to take an elevator a third of the way up and get another to the 2nd 3rd of the building and then get yet another elevator to get to the top, so if there were fires and explosions in the basement as many have claimed then logic dictates that there would have been explosions and fires not connected with the planes impact on the buildings...

i truly dont understand people, a building employee heard explosions coming from the basement area and you say dont play that card, are you SERIOUSLY suggesting ALL the 9/11 survivors and rescuers are lying?

Ok . . .

if you tried doing some research before being so quick to ridicule people like me and labeling us as "nutcases" you will find the information and the pictures for yourself!

I've seen just about every photo there is. When the 9/11 attacks happened, I remember watching CNN. People heard secondary explosions and instantly people thought they were demolition explosives planted in the buildings. That's when the whole conspiracy that the government was involved started. Like I mentioned before, people assume things way too quickly.

Also, all the people that would be involved to pull the 9/11 attack off would big a massive proportion. We're talking about, The Bush Administration, the Government, New York City, structural engineers, the CIA, FBI, FEMA, American Airlines, United Airline, Logan, Newark and Dulles Airpor, people who installed the demolitions, people who detonated the buildings, NYC fiire fighters and police, PBS, and Popular Mechanics. Yes, Popular Mechanics debunked many conspiracy theories, so they must be involved also.

Besides, why would our own government do this? How would they benefit? I mean, the Pentagon was hit and what good did that do? Did our government hit the Pentagon just for effects? What about the plane that crashed into a field that was heading towards the White House? I guess the government did that just for fun.

sigh, i get the feeling i am going round and round in circles with you (no thats not a criticism or an insult, just an observation and no insult is intended)....

1stly, please show me where the plane in the field is because just as in the case of the pentagon plane...where is it?

there are to many questions that need answers, such as...if a plane did infact hit the pentagon why did it approach the pentagon go around it 180 degrees and hit the only part of the pentagon that is reinforced and not just dive right into it?

why did **Filtered** cheney order the airforce to stand down?

why have only 5 frames of film been released, could it be because there was no plane and the films would show a missile???

as i said, there are many questions that need answers.

the corona who was in field said and i quote "i stopped being a corona 5 mins after i arrived because there were no bodies, no body parts and no blood, infact, there was nothing but a hole in the ground and what looked like junk pored into the hole"

dude your asking the wrong questions, the questions you need to ask is...who benefited from 9/11 and if bin laden carried out the attacks why is the crime for 9/11 not listed on the bin laden's FBI profile!

goto the FBI's 10 most wanted and look in the list of crimes that bin laden is wanted for and the 1 crime you would think he is wanted for the most is NOT there...why!?!?

instead he was wanted for the murder of 200 people in an embassy blast...i mean WTH man!

9/11 3k+ people died and vs the 200 from an embassy

lifted from the FBI's profile of bin laden...you see "wanted for the WTC attacks" in there...anywhere?

"USAMA BIN LADEN IS WANTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE AUGUST 7, 1998, BOMBINGS OF THE UNITED STATES EMBASSIES IN DAR ES SALAAM, TANZANIA, AND NAIROBI, KENYA. THESE ATTACKS KILLED OVER 200 PEOPLE. IN ADDITION, BIN LADEN IS A SUSPECT IN OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD."

i'll tell you why its not listed...because he didn't carry out the attacks!




http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm

[Phoenix of Terra]

yay POT has some common sense as well, Are you still in love with Starry?

Thank you.

And wow, I had forgotten I was one of Starry's many admirers. *remembers teh Starry*

*Checks Thriller's join date* Hmm... second account? (I can't remember my activity back then).

[Demeisen]

1stly, please show me where the plane in the field is because just as in the case of the pentagon plane...where is it?

i have looked at the pictures of the flight 93 crash . i see evidence of damage. nothing within the photos makes me certain of any conspiracy related theory. its drawing the answers you want from the evidence.

apparently flight 93

fragmented upon impact, leaving a crater, and some debris was blown miles from the crash site.

maybe its logical to accept that the pentagon plane 'fragmented' also. witnesses report seeing a plane hit the pentagon. they saw windows and the people behind them. if it were a missile would it have windows and passengers? i believe there is also cctv evidence. i also believe that much of the theories regarding the pentagon plane attack have been debunked. although theres still the hardcore people who think:

Some conspiracy theories of 9/11 have included missile pods on the airplanes and holograms hitting the Trade Center.

and politicians who stutter or accidently say something are not proof. everyone says something they dont intend to at some point.

there are to many questions that need answers, such as...if a plane did infact hit the pentagon why did it approach the pentagon go around it 180 degrees and hit the only part of the pentagon that is reinforced and not just dive right into it?

i dont know. but im not jumping to a conclusion. who knows whats going through a terrorists head. i would look into the facts but they are hidden amoung the myriad false conspiracy theories.

why have only 5 frames of film been released, could it be because there was no plane and the films would show a missile??

if your family were on board would you want their moment of death spread around the globe? if you notice they rarely show dead people on tv out of respect. also this is the pentagon. would you really think they are in the habit of releasing their cctv tapes to the press. . .

the corona who was in field said and i quote "i stopped being a corona 5 mins after i arrived because there were no bodies, no body parts and no blood, infact, there was nothing but a hole in the ground and what looked like junk pored into the hole"

yes but you view this though your beliefs. i can read this and see a description of how the bodies were beyond recognition from his perspective. and that there was a concerntration of wreckage around a crater. there are many ways to interpret someones statement.

who benefited from 9/11 and if bin laden carried out the attacks why is the crime for 9/11 not listed on the bin laden's FBI profile!

well i doubt its who you say benefited. what the us? uk? how much has the war in afganistan cost so far dude be serious. its not economically helping anyone.

Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.

it seems they have stronger evidence linking him to his previous terrorist actions. what he is accused of is easily enough to keep him locked in a cage if ever he is found.

alcapone was imprisoned for tax evasion or something similar right. that wasnt the worst of his crimes though. if you cant convict someone of something, get them for something you can prove. that is sense. 9/11 is implied by 'Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.' everyone knows bin laden and his crimes. sensible people use knowledge of the world.

WTH if you saw bin ladens fbi profile would you say 'hey 9/11 isnt here, he must not have done it.' oh wait you are saying that. man thats sad. i pity the fool who thinks bin laden is a choir boy.


and solid snake you can change your forum name to hide your shame but i still know you failed on your sources. therefore all of your sources are suspect.

and i believe you wrote something like they are actually sending a few ships right. well thats a whole different thing ENTIRELY. a few ships being sent there is perfectly understandable with the current tension in the region. a **Filtered** armada is ENTIRELY different. you leaped to unconfirmed reports and were caught like a small puffa fish in the web of lies spun by the retard conspiracy spiders. you fail.

[Kieltyka]

Just a short reply to Snake.

In the first image where are the two engines? which are made from titanium & weigh several tons.

Exploded.

Where is the damage from where the wings should have hit?

Lol, we do not live in a Looney Tunes world where everything has cartoon shape imprints.

Now that's short.

[S0lid Snake]

This debate boils down to one point.

Are our bureaucrats able to swallow their humanity and stiffle their conciences in order to serve a small group or power greedy elites who rule from the shadows in such a way that harms their fellow citizens, and still remain silent about it?

On one side, we have the optimistic establishment supporters, who will do their best to debunk such claims. On the other, there is the pessimistic freedom fighters, who see the shadow government in every negative action. Personally, if the old Press Secretary isn't willing to keep his mouth shut on Bush policies, I fail to see how the thousands that would be needed for a 9/11 size operation could all keep quiet, especially with the resources available for squealing.

Oh, and solid snake...
[spoiler]


Stupid comparison. Before either of those, the eagle was used by the Romans. Considering the large influence the Romans and other classical cultures played on the formation of the USA (along with Locke and other 17th-18th century sociopolitical writers), it only makes sense why the noble bird became the national bird of the States way back during the formation of the country. George Washington even fancied himself another Cinncinatus. The Nazis can nearly a century and a half after the Americans adopted the eagle. Fail.

Comparisons such as this one are part of the reason why us nay-sayers can't take you seriously. I wonder if you look at the stars and see a giant alien armada marching to Earth's destruction?[/spoiler]

Again with the insults, You miss the point mate, Fail you say, what of the other images you have ignored in your rush to insult me.

here is a bit more on the eagle symbols:-

Ok, what was the first reich?

The First Reich was the Holy Roman Empire (the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, Heiliges Römisches Reich deutscher Nation, not the ancient Roman Empire), 800 - 1806. Charlemagne (Charles the Great) was crowned emperor by Pope Leo III in Rome on Christmas Day 800, this is normally seen as the founding of the Empire, but sometimes the year of 962 is used, that was when Otto I (Otto the Great) was crowned.

The Empire existed almost in name only following the Peace of Westphalia at the end of the Thirty Years' War in 1648, but was not formally dissolved until 6 Aug 1806 when Emperor Francis II (Franz II) abdicated
[spoiler][/spoiler]

The Second reich?

The Second Reich was the Hohenzollern Germany, from the unification of Germany following the Franco-Prussian War (1870 - 1871) and crowning of Wilhelm I as German Emperor at the Palace of Versailles, with Otto von Bismarck as the first Reichskanzler, to the abdication of Wilhelm II in 1919 following the German defeat in the First World War.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

The Third reich?

Well we all know some what about the 3rd installment, Hitlers idea of a New World Order was a failure, He was also a member of the Brotherhood Of Death, also known as Skull & Bones 322, as is Prescott Bush father of George H W Bush.

[spoiler]


Prescott Bush.[/spoiler]

The New Fourth reich?

Well, lets see now, Lots of German Nazi scientists came to America after WWII, some ended up at Nasa, others fell below the public radar and have been quietly infecting America from within, and with George W Bush in the saddle, talk of New World Order has arisen again.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

These eagles are a common theme among the reiches of history, and America is showing all the hall marks of becoming the fourth reich, with two illegal wars of aggression against Afghanistan & Iraq already going on and now threats going out to Russia, Iran, Syria, North Korea or even China, the world is on the brink of WWIII. Will history remember this as the early days of WWIII. who knows.

Check this picture out:-
[spoiler]
Dated 1997, 4 years before it actually happened, Fema is pure evil.[/spoiler]

Make from all this what you will, I really do hope that all this is wrong, but the sad fact is its probably true.

Also:-
Flight 93 crash site:

No wreckage here?

[S0lid Snake]

Just a short reply to Snake.

In the first image where are the two engines? which are made from titanium & weigh several tons.

Exploded.

Where is the damage from where the wings should have hit?

Lol, we do not live in a Looney Tunes world where everything has cartoon shape imprints.

Now that's short.

Exploded????? HAHAHAHA okay mate, the fuels in the wings, so no they wouldn't explode, you really don't know what your talking about here. Jet fuel can't disintegrate a titanium engine.

Looney Tunes???? More insults to my intelligence. Go look at the two towers, those impacts show the wing spans, and thats steel. The pentagon should show a similar impact, it doesn't.

Where is the tail damage? where is most of the wreckage from to tail?

Oh and with the WTC buildings & building 7, the cause of the collapses said to be fire, when checking to see if this has happened to other skyscraper around the world, NOTHING, these 3 buildings are the only one to ever fall from fire. The empire state building was hit by a plane an never fell....

It just doesn't fit together like the US Government tells us.

[Kieltyka]

Exploded????? HAHAHAHA okay mate, the fuels in the wings, so no they wouldn't explode, you really don't know what your talking about here. Jet fuel can't disintegrate a titanium engine.

Jet fuel is pumped into the engines and sprayed into a stream. The stream of fuel is ignited and air is sucked into the engine giving the propulsions it needs. Bu I wonder what happens when the engine and wings hit something causing fuel to go everywhere?

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/25136/jumbo_jet_crash/

That was just a controlled crashed. Can't really be compared much to a plane crashing directly into a building. But gives you a good idea.

Oh, and please note that I am not saying that the steel exploded but the engines. Because something explodes doesn't mean that everything is just going to disappear. Like someone said before, fragmented.

Looney Tunes???? More insults to my intelligence. Go look at the two towers, those impacts show the wing spans, and thats steel. The pentagon should show a similar impact, it doesn't.

The impact of the Pentagon and the impact of the World Trade Center's Twin Towers would be nothing a like. That is a weak comparison. Plus, you ever wonder why the jumbo jet was able to slice through the Twin Towers so easily? Well the strength and thickness of the steel decreases as it is constructed higher. The bottom and middle of the building was the strongest parts because it had to hold up the most weight. That's why the terrorist his near the top of the building and not near the bottom.

Oh and with the WTC buildings & building 7, the cause of the collapses said to be fire, when checking to see if this has happened to other skyscraper around the world, NOTHING, these 3 buildings are the only one to ever fall from fire. The empire state building was hit by a plane an never fell....

Reports from many structural engineer groups and experts say that the fires caused the Twin Towers to fall.

"Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800° it is probably at less than 10 percent." NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.

Also, you have to remember that the jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning. We're talking about rooms full of burnable materials.