Terrorists, real or not?

[urogard]

The war in Afghanistan was never illegal and neither was the war in Iraq. Technically the wars were circumvented around Congress by declaring them as joint military operations but it was still approved by Congress after the time limit.

It was never sanctioned by the UN.
SO in the case of international law both wars are illegal.

I don't know exactly what the legal situation in the USA is but i really don't care cos it is afterall irrelevant due to the fact we're talking about the international community and not about US legal system.

We kill innocent civilians over there all of the time? I was totally unaware of this I must not have been paying attention in the "Kill all" class that we had hmmm I will ask my NCOIC if he had standing orders to kill the local populace when he was deployed. Is that something you would like to know?

Civilians die, as both direct (regularly misguided missiles dropped upon civilian buildings, a few days ago 80 people killed, 60 kids and 15 women, USA said they were aiming at "terrorist" cell) and indirect result of american presence and invasion of both iraq and afghanistan.

If we were killing innocent civilians on a regular basis do you honestly think that Iraq would be more and more stable every year as the amount of support for Terrorist and Insurgent groups declines on a daily basis?

Yes I do.

Last time I checked I saw that Iraqi forces are actually taking over control of more and more of the country and the CF (Coalition Forces) are taking a back seat and allowing them to run the Military Ops with CF as backup and advisors.

That's old news, nothing new, after things get screwed up it's only logical that after couple of years (and tens of thousands of deaths) things go slowly back to normal. And kinda shows how people can go off topic I wasn't asking anything about current condition Iraq is in.

I watch both Fox and CNN in order to gain a "balanced" view of the news sometimes I just read other sources.

Thx for giving me some signature material, didn't laugh so hard in a good while.
Fox and balanced doesn't go into one sentence.
And most certainly not if you try to balance it out with CNN. Moderate Right wing bias is not enough to balance out the blatant lies of Extreme right wing propaganda.

Any other questions?

Nah, only that you need to take your gun, walk up to bush, cheney and a number of others who are responsible for this mess and do the world a big favor.

[Angnoch]

glad I could give you something to laugh about


The UN did pass a resolution Resolution 1441 and the US maintained that Iraq was not cooperating with UN inspectors and had not met its obligations to 17 UN resolutions. The US felt that Resolution 1441 called for the immediate, total unilateral disarmament of Iraq and continued to show frustration at the fact that months after the resolution was passed Iraq was still not, in its view, disarming. Language in Resolution 1441 recalled that the use of "all means necessary" was still authorized and in effect from UN Resolution 678, and therefore maintained that if Iraq failed to comply with the "one final chance to comply" provision of resolution 1441, then military action would be the result.

So the invasion was not illegal.

Yes civilians die but it is considered acceptable collateral by Geneva Convention Standards and trust me I had to pass a legal test in order to get my current job and by pass I mean I could not get a single question wrong on the legal portion.

You obviously have a very skewered version of Arabic Culture, in Arab culture I kill a sibling of yours or any immediate family member you will find a way to get revenge by any means necessary so in fact if we were killing civilians on a daily basis then by rights we would have already lost the war because none of the country would want us there.


CNN is biased on the left and Fox is biased on the right get your news media right I myself am a Republican but that has nothing to do with my feelings on the war.

I suggest you wait a few more months and we have a peaceful solution instead of saying someone should do something to the President he is almost out of office

[Deaths_Rider]

reguardless of there bais both are american news to get a turly balanced view you would need to look at more than two sources from more than one country the facts on matters like this are never clear without carefull research something news broadcasters dont have the time or comitment to do properly so each different station has it's own variations of half truths and baised opions and amongst them all it's possible the truth will lie.

[Cole]

Ah that must explain why I never seen once Fox news on cable, nor went to their site...and why each time I can (I don't have cable personally), I watch CNN, or go to their site when there's international news I want to verify whenever I need!
I'm a democrat afterall (not left side, but center side, I've left the left side [lolz] about 7 monthes ago).

[urogard]

btw concerning the siggy you are a minority who supports that view since I've yet to meet someone who doesn't think it was absolutely hilarious

The UN did pass a resolution Resolution 1441 and the US maintained that Iraq was not cooperating with UN inspectors and had not met its obligations to 17 UN resolutions. The US felt that Resolution 1441 called for the immediate, total unilateral disarmament of Iraq and continued to show frustration at the fact that months after the resolution was passed Iraq was still not, in its view, disarming. Language in Resolution 1441 recalled that the use of "all means necessary" was still authorized and in effect from UN Resolution 678, and therefore maintained that if Iraq failed to comply with the "one final chance to comply" provision of resolution 1441, then military action would be the result.

So the invasion was not illegal.

Actually it was.
It was mostly due to the fact that about 1 week before the war began Saddam permitted the inspectors to return to iraq without any conditions.
And also mostly due to the fact that no one else thought Iraq was not disarming which was also why the french, russians and chinese vetoed the decision for the UN to give permission to the USA to invade Iraq.

The War Masters didn't care, they wanted their war and their wanted the profits, so they went on ahead anyway, violating international agreements and invaded a souvereign country without UN permission.

CNN is biased on the left and Fox is biased on the right get your news media right I myself am a Republican but that has nothing to do with my feelings on the war.

CNN is biased on the moderate right. Fox is biased on the extreme right.
Get your news media and american politics right.
Or do you even want to tell me next that democrats are moderate/left?

I suggest you wait a few more months and we have a peaceful solution instead of saying someone should do something to the President he is almost out of office

So just because he's soon out of office he shouldn't be held accountable for the deaths of thousands of people?
I disagree.

[[KMA]Avenger]

I suggest you wait a few more months and we have a peaceful solution instead of saying someone should do something to the President he is almost out of office

So just because he's soon out of office he shouldn't be held accountable for the deaths of thousands of people?
I disagree.

make that "millions of people" killed.

[urogard]

make that "millions of people" killed.

Already a single person killed is bad enough, so personally for me to give someone a life sentence due to intentional murder it won't matter

[[KMA]Avenger]

very true but to fully understand their crimes we need to know the whole truth

[Demeisen]

millions of people?

from what i have seen the war was legal. from what i have learned the war was the right thing to do. a dictator who employed WMD on his own countries population should be stopped. iraq was as much a victim of saddam as everyone else.

i dont think anyone can deny that the coalition messed things up badly after the invasion. badly being an understatement. but its not about the past failures, its about the future prosperity and progress in a successful iraq.

i hope that in 10 years (or however long) iraq will be a free, peaceful and democratic country. few things would make me happier than an iraq reborn to tolerance and safety for its citizens.

[urogard]

war is never the right thing to do.
That's already where any reasoning stops and defeats itself.

Not to mention that Bush lied about al kaida/11 sept connection in iraq and later admitted it himself on tv. He lied about the presence of WMD's.

And do you want to tell me that now that taliban lost control of afghanistan, and it becoming once again top producer of opium in the world, when during taliban rule opium growth was non-existant, it's a good thing?

And please don't come spouting stuff about freedom, when you don't even know what that truly means. (If you're gonna say people need freedom so that they can do what they want witout fear of getting opressed by their state then think hard again about what freedom is truly about.)

[[KMA]Avenger]

war is never the right thing to do.
That's already where any reasoning stops and defeats itself.

Not to mention that Bush lied about al kaida/11 sept connection in iraq and later admitted it himself on tv. He lied about the presence of WMD's.

And do you want to tell me that now that taliban lost control of afghanistan, and it becoming once again top producer of opium in the world, when during taliban rule opium growth was non-existant, it's a good thing?

And please don't come spouting stuff about freedom, when you don't even know what that truly means. (If you're gonna say people need freedom so that they can do what they want witout fear of getting opressed by their state then think hard again about what freedom is truly about.)

uro, your crazy, your a conspiracy freak, your a nut job, you don't know anything, you wouldn't know the truth if it landed on you!

go get your tin foil hat and shut up!!


saddam had WMD's, he buried them in the sand where they will never be found!
iran wants WMD's so we should just start a war and go kill them as well just in case they get them...its called a preemptive war, that means you pick a target and tell the people via the independent media that these people want WMD's and hate your freedom and want to kill you years before you want to kill them, and right before the war you tell the people the truth that they indeed have wmd's and can launch them in a matter of hours and kill you...OMG (cry the people) these evil muslims hate us! please govt heres my liberty kill them first and protect me with the patriot act!!!
big govt is good for you.
big govt loves you and cares about you and you should trust big brother and give him all your liberty.
the govt doesn't import drugs, its the black people living on the streets who import the drugs via their planes and boats.
these wars are justified because the evil muslims hate our freedom.
muslims are born evil.
israel is good and does not kill innocent unarmed civis.
terrorists are real, these people enjoy blowing themselves to kingdom come for no reason other than they hate our freedom.
the war in afghanistan and iraq is all about spreading democracy by killing the indigenous populations so why should they hate us?!
govt doesn't kill its own people.
the UK and US govts dont want war with russia and iran, thats why they are provoking the russians and are hanging iran in our faces as "rogue nation".

so you see uro, govt is good and your a nut job!


*end of sarcasm*

[Demeisen]

well i had a better and more adequate post but my browser crashed.

basically, urogard you rant about freedom yet you do so under the freedom my country and others like it provided. a nazi europe wouldnt tolerate dissent. before you complain about freedom perhaps you and your nation can fight the most evil regime in history for the freedom of the world. once you do that ill listen to your **Filtered** with absolute attention. you whine under the freedom provided you by the lives of others. what a **Filtered** joke.

war is sometimes right. would you prefer a nazi europe perhaps. its easy to spout obsene ideas when your freedom is handed to you on a plate.

saddam had WMDs and utilised them against his own people.
that
is
fact.

uro, your crazy, your a conspiracy freak, your a nut job, you don't know anything, you wouldn't know the truth if it landed on you!

go get your tin foil hat and shut up!!

never has a truer statement been made. id agree if it wasnt from a self-confessed crazy person.

these evil muslims hate us! please govt heres my liberty kill them first and protect me with the patriot act!!!

well i for one have many muslim friends so your generalisation offends me. that is not how everyone thinks. maybe only you think in such simply black and white terms. and i am not an american citizen so this patriot act has no meaning to me.

the govt doesn't import drugs, its the black people living on the streets who import the drugs via their planes and boats

are you trying to spread racist ideas? what makes you think a black person cant own a boat. your ethics are laughable.the drug dealer is a description of activities, not ethnicity.

israel is good and does not kill innocent unarmed civis

when was that stated? they have codes within their military against such actions. however there are those who defy these codes. an individual isnt a measure of a society and individuals break rules.

terrorists are real, these people enjoy blowing themselves to kingdom come for no reason other than they hate our freedom

yes, terrorists are real. from your basement in a safe area you have surely experienced terrorism personally. judge from a far why dont you. george bush sits in his bunker, you sit in yours. you are similar in some ways it seems. and they dont kill for no reason. they are indoctrinated from a young age. the young and weak minded are targetted for radicalisation. if you dont know this you are poorly informed, as always.

why would nato want war with russia? please inform me of their reasons (as your warped mind sees them). and iran is a dangerous nation. it threatens to destroy other nations entirely. this is the actions of a rouge and dangerous state. i would not feel safe with such a nation having nuclear arms and the means to deliver them.


in essence your thoughts and beliefs cause me to pity you. you are all knowing and all seeing yet you are blind and ignorant. you think you possess truths but all you do is excrete lies and skewed opinions upon this forum. you are one of many things wrong with the uk kma. you are a joke. a small person in the grand scheme who thinks they are important because of what you claim to know. you know nothing. you jump on the ideas of others and latch upon them and believe them as strongly as any religious fanatic. your research is bias beyond doubt. you see what you want to see. you bring up random evidence which shames the very word. i think you need a conspiracy to give you something to do, something to dedicate yourself to and believe in. i pity you. you cause an annoyance in me by your utter disregard for logic in face of the obscure and unreasonable.

all you say is further confirmation of your ideas from yourself. you cannot prove yourself right yourself. you are clearly not aware of Occam's razor. look up the concept and analyse your laughable 'theories.'

sadly you fail.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i just sit in front of my monitor and laugh at you mate

maybe you missed the part at the bottom *end of sarcasm*?

not surprising really since you only see what you want to see...



btw, you haven't replied to my question in the other topic.

is that offer of a non-violent get together debate type thing, still open or what?

[Demeisen]

i noticed the end of sarcasm part obviously. as your points were sarcastic i assumed they were points made as if from the opposite of your personal opinion. therefore i responded as if you were simply stating those issues. i nfiltered your 'sarcasm out.'


i shall not debate terrorist related theories any longer. they are utterly stupid and are not worth my time or the time of others. if i feel the need to discuss the ridiculous i shall visit my local mental health clinic or towncentre bench to talk to the drunken dregs of society. either will give more reasoned debate than you. shame on you kma. you dissapoint me greatly. peaceout

btw if we have a face to face meeting it would be the same as here i fear. it would end with frustration and annoyance. ipossibly wouldnt want to put myself in a situation where i was faced with temptation. i have self control so if you desire a meeting it could be arranged but i may have to leave early to scream at the skies to relieve pent up rage at the stupidity my brain has contemplated.

[[KMA]Avenger]

lol.

see this is my point with people who fail to see reality and who fail to even listen to reason...

regardless, PM me your location so we can see if its even feasible, and if it is i promise it wont come to anything like that, i don't have a problem with a sociable drink at all, no need for anyone to get mad lol