Scientology: good or bad?

[Demeisen]

any thoughts?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology

their site which may slightly favour scientology lol:
http://www.scientology.org/home.html

opposition group:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_(group)
http://www.whyweprotest.net/

youtube
pro:
http://uk.youtube.com/churchofscientology

against:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rCGP-0545 ... re=related


this is the tip of the iceburg. theres plenty of information out there waiting to be found. its interesting and shocking but its something people should look at.

all comments welcome (except those which relate to armadas, boats, blockades or flotillas)

[semper]

The sheer basic Idea has a lot of merits. Aliens coming to the world seed it and leave or become extinct or even mould back into human society, possibly more returning later in history to help with the pyramids and aztecs etc etc..who knows, it is certainly more believable even then the idea of God (or creationalism to be more specific.)

The more advanced stories and ideas involved in it do become absurd to a level equal of christianity and other ancient religions.

Offering prayers to highly intelligent beings and all that...lol.

So ultimately...BAD.

[Demeisen]

to help with the pyramids

i think the people of the ancient world are much underestimated. they had the same potential inteligence as we do. i think the pyramids etc were built with good old fashioned human ingenuity

who knows, it is certainly more believable even then the idea of God (or creationalism to be more specific.)

some scientology beliefs are far more outlandish and senseless than those of the major religions. this isnt totally accurate but its generally one thing they believe in: a god/demon called xanthu (guessed spelling) threw billions of humans into a volcano. makes a resurection seem ordinary to me

with scientology its not so much a question of what they believe, but rather what they do. they have a 'fair game' policy which means all people not of their religion are targets. another policy is 'never defend, always attack.'i have seen many examples of innocent people being called murderers, criminals and child molesters with no justification.

i believe you are a man of words. they make up their own words such as interbulate which they insist is a real word and always has been.

there have been several deaths related to scientology and many criminal/legal issues. apparently they have the largest security force of all religions. they have an army of lawyers. they tried to sue youtube because it hosted clips they wanted kept from the general public. they engage in censorship.

a few weeks ago i knew virtually nothing of this religion. once i started researching i was shocked. i now see scientology as a dangerous cult which indoctrinates people, ruining their lives, and taking their money.

i ask any who have the time: please learn about scientology and pass your knowledge on to others. once you start digging you will understand. while i dont know all about them, what i have discovered is outrageous.

[S0lid Snake]

Look up operation clam bake & Lisa McPherson.

L Ron Hubbard was a known satanist. There is a quote from LRH Stating "If you want to get rich quick, start your own religion" And he did just that.

Scientology is pure evil BS, a corporate money making machine nothing more.

Tom Cruises recent behavior should be enough to put anyone off this horrible creation. Did you know he believes he can fly and fire bolts of lighting from his eyes??? What a wacko!!!

My answer is bad, very bad. Just go ask Lisa. Oh wait you can't shes dead!!!

Be warned. We may get sued for discussing this subject, Just ask people on youtube who've had their account suspended without notice after Scientology's lawyers got involved.

And it's spelled Xenu Liquid....

[Juliette]

Why don't you lot read the OTs and making an actual informed debate.
Surely your internet is not that censored that I can get my hands on the full texts of OTs through VII, and you can not, is it?

I will say 'good', for the psychological help the organisation gives this world by having the most effective bond breaking programme known to man. It's a Buddhists dream come true.
Extortion? Nonsense. Keeping a good society afloat amidst such controversy and ridiculing campaigns as Anonymous and whatnot, requires tremendous funding. Funding that, thank god, can be found with the richer members of the society.

Now, next time you want to talk crap, actually try and have something to say. Fools.

[Demeisen]

Lisa McPherson.

was she the one who was half starved and had cockroach bites all over her body?

L Ron Hubbard was a known satanist. There is a quote from LRH Stating "If you want to get rich quick, start your own religion" And he did just that.

yup. i think he was charged with fraud (for stealing naq from his religion) and he died in hiding.

Scientology is pure evil BS, a corporate money making machine nothing more

agree with that. i respect the freedom of religion. scientology should be tolerated, but its practices are immoral and sinister. the things they do should be opposed if they are 'bad.'

We may get sued for discussing this subject, Just ask people on youtube who've had their account suspended without notice after Scientology's lawyers got involved.

and thats only part joke. thats the kind of thing they do.

And it's spelled Xenu Liquid

praise Xenu for the spellitron

Why don't you lot read the OTs and making an actual informed debate.
Surely your internet is not that censored that I can get my hands on the full texts of OTs through VII, and you can not, is it?

then post what you have.

Now, next time you want to talk crap, actually try and have something to say. Fools

kk. i find more information on my beer can than there was in your post. please clarify and elaborate your point so i its clear and . . . elaborate. tanks

[S0lid Snake]

Why don't you lot read the OTs and making an actual informed debate.
Surely your internet is not that censored that I can get my hands on the full texts of OTs through VII, and you can not, is it?

I will say 'good', for the psychological help the organisation gives this world by having the most effective bond breaking programme known to man. It's a Buddhists dream come true.
Extortion? Nonsense. Keeping a good society afloat amidst such controversy and ridiculing campaigns as Anonymous and whatnot, requires tremendous funding. Funding that, thank god, can be found with the richer members of the society.

Now, next time you want to talk crap, actually try and have something to say. Fools.

Okay, are you a Scientologist?

I've done my research on this topic (over 2 years ago now), It's a fraud, well and truly.

The OT levels are the writings of a madman, simple as that.

If you think these writings are a good thing then your just as mad as LRH himself.

They also believe a mother should give birth in silence, as the noise traumatizes the child. Do you agree with this Lois?

[semper]

Why don't you lot read the OTs and making an actual informed debate.
Surely your internet is not that censored that I can get my hands on the full texts of OTs through VII, and you can not, is it?

I will say 'good', for the psychological help the organisation gives this world by having the most effective bond breaking programme known to man. It's a Buddhists dream come true.
Extortion? Nonsense. Keeping a good society afloat amidst such controversy and ridiculing campaigns as Anonymous and whatnot, requires tremendous funding. Funding that, thank god, can be found with the richer members of the society.

Now, next time you want to talk crap, actually try and have something to say. Fools.

ha....thats a funny post.

the psychological help could be viewed as a double edged sword, especially for someone like myself. I can agree with and totally sympathise with their goals that all humans should be equal and seek to better themselves in a society without internal war and crime etc etc (almost Star Trek society 101...) but I see such goals as impossible to attain and fool hardy. The idea that humans are basically good seems very odd to me, as it would need a indepth discussion as to what exactly GOOD is, as without logic and true intelligence in society good does not exist (as that is what I believe...but thats complicated..)

Then as I mentioned before the basic idea (basic) that I mentioned above is good.

We also have to decide whether we are discussing the principles of scientology or the church of. As IF memory serves (I have still to even open a different tab about scientology, but I doubt I will..) they both potentially have different 'taboo' aspects.

[Cole]

They are fools
Why do you think they loath that much psychologists?
Because any bit of sense given would destroy their foolish laughable theories.
And just take a look at how you become a high level member, just give more money, afterall, Tom Cruise isn't much of anything different than others else that being rich and famous. So indeed, being all equal with extortion.
And to people who say it's not extortion, at this very moment there's a judgement in my country against scientology for...extortion
It's just another SECT, that's all!
Only fools follow that, or weak minded ones
Unless of course you are promised to a high level.
It makes me think of those economical pyramids, the ones who start it get uberrich and more you go on next level more they have difficulties to find pidgeons to bring in. And less they become rich. Simply because you need to bring 12 people or so and ask them for some euros, they will do it with 12 themselves and so on. "Sadly", if you are caught to be on first levels you are likely to have problems with justice. How is it same? Pathetic lies promised to all levels, only top ones get anything because of mathematical logic.

Differences though: on pyramids you can't go on higher rank, as it's based on who started first the scam etc...BUT the extortion is nowhere near scientology, giving few euros compared to thousands if not tens of thousands euros/dollars for scientology. So in the end, those pyramids who are pointed at, are nowhere near bad as scientology is! Because scientology also brainwashes you crap unlike pyramids.

So in the end, if you are not on high levels, you are an idiot.



I laugh at people who got themselves into that!
Bunch of fools

Now, next time you want to talk crap, actually try and have something to say. Fools.

Why are you defending those fools and say those who are against them are the fools?
Nonsense..

Tom Cruises recent behavior should be enough to put anyone off this horrible creation. Did you know he believes he can fly and fire bolts of lighting from his eyes??? What a wacko!!!

Not surprising, and people wonder why they loath psychologists that much!
When Tom Cruise will be The Source that will be known

Because having powers and not being believed and not having them and pretending to have them are two different things!

[Juliette]

Why don't you lot read the OTs and making an actual informed debate.
Surely your internet is not that censored that I can get my hands on the full texts of OTs through VII, and you can not, is it?

then post what you have.

There is a restriction on that material for a reason, dear. You are obviously too filled with rage and other obstructions to be receptive and open-minded.
It would be immoral of me to give you the OTs, as you would, in your current incompatible situation, go crazy if you did receive them.
But if you wish to debate Scientology, you will require the information presented in the OTs. For now, I will humour you, and respond to the opponents present here.

Now, next time you want to talk crap, actually try and have something to say. Fools

kk. i find more information on my beer can than there was in your post. please clarify and elaborate your point so i its clear and . . . elaborate. tanks

What can I say.. that must be some pretty informative beer can? I will elaborate if the proper questions are asked, and you convince me you are ready for such information.

Okay, are you a Scientologist?

What of it, if I am?

I've done my research on this topic (over 2 years ago now), It's a fraud, well and truly.

Really? Despite your 'extensive research' of (wow..) 2 whole years.. you fail to give any substantial argument as to why you feel this way.
If it is a fraud to you, what does this mean to anyone else? It is not as if your approval (or lack thereof) discredits the system in any way. Do not get me wrong, I accept that you feel Scientology is a fraud. I just do not see why this is relevant to anyone other than yourself.

The OT levels are the writings of a madman, simple as that.

Come now, we just agreed that you feel Scientology is a fraud. Now why do you go and be so rude? Who has insulted you so that you cannot but respond in an insulting manner? I sympathise, but I do hope you will rise above this past trauma.

If you think these writings are a good thing then your just as mad as LRH himself.

Again.. what basis, what argument do you have to judge the (in)sanity of others? I will accept your argument if you present me with it. Until such time, please refrain from uttering the same conclusions without arguments, esteemed opponent.

They also believe a mother should give birth in silence, as the noise traumatizes the child. Do you agree with this Lois?

I would not, had I not seen the effects it has on a child in their pre-verbal childhood years. Naturally, this could be attributed to other, circumstantial influences, but I have been scientifically convinced.
Pretty much the opposite of what you do, sir.. you say I am wrong, but fail to present rational, credible arguments to support that rather bold claim. Try to understand that in order to change my beliefs you will need to appeal to my ratio, not the intuitive response I might have cultivated somewhere. Thank you.

ha....thats a funny post.

Thank you.

the psychological help could be viewed as a double edged sword, especially for someone like myself. I can agree with and totally sympathise with their goals that all humans should be equal and seek to better themselves in a society without internal war and crime etc etc (almost Star Trek society 101...) but I see such goals as impossible to attain and fool hardy. The idea that humans are basically good seems very odd to me, as it would need a indepth discussion as to what exactly GOOD is, as without logic and true intelligence in society good does not exist (as that is what I believe...but thats complicated..)

I regret to say this, but you appear to have lost focus.
What are we discussing here? The innate goodness or lack thereof of man, or Scientology in all its aspects?
If we are discussing Scientology, then the "discussion about the innate goodness or lack thereof of man" has no place here. Scientology does not remark upon the goodness of man, nor does it have any intention of getting itself involved in a philosophical debate ad nauseas.

Then as I mentioned before the basic idea (basic) that I mentioned above is good.

That did not really make sense to me, I think. Correct me if I am wrong here while paraphrasing you: "The idea about the basic goals of Scientology as I attempted to outline before is good." I would beg to differ, as you outlined incorrectly and cannot qualify that outline as such.

We also have to decide whether we are discussing the principles of scientology or the church of. As IF memory serves (I have still to even open a different tab about scientology, but I doubt I will..) they both potentially have different 'taboo' aspects.

So far, it would seem we have been discussing Scientology in all (that is in no specific) aspects? I would agree to continue to humour you in a discussion as long as it relates to Scientology, and does not drag itself down in the golden mud of philosophical debate.

They are fools
Why do you think they loath that much psychologists?
Because any bit of sense given would destroy their foolish laughable theories.

Please try to make sense, thank you.

And just take a look at how you become a high level member, just give more money, afterall, Tom Cruise isn't much of anything different than others else that being rich and famous. So indeed, being all equal with extortion.
And to people who say it's not extortion, at this very moment there's a judgement in my country against scientology for...extortion

Ah yes, of course.. sorry, I got that wrong. We are all extortionists! It has been proven! Not.
Jim, if I would accuse you of being an extortionist and present some faint shimmer of evidence, there would be a court case attempting to find out whether or not you are an extortionist.
The fact that there is a court case against someone/some organisation does not give logical credence to the conclusion that that specific someone/some organisation is indeed guilty. Guilty until proven innocent is still the primary stronghold of Roman Law. Hail Caesar, Scientology has not ever been convicted without a shadow of a doubt.

It's just another SECT, that's all!

If you feel that way, please specify of what religion this is supposedly a sect?

Only fools follow that, or weak minded ones

Instead of going playground on us, could you please give some arguments as to why you feel that way?

Unless of course you are promised to a high level.

Of course. Say what?

It makes me think of those economical pyramids, the ones who start it get uberrich and more you go on next level more they have difficulties to find pidgeons to bring in. And less they become rich. Simply because you need to bring 12 people or so and ask them for some euros, they will do it with 12 themselves and so on.

I think it was clear what you meant when you mentioned 'pyramid schemes', Jim. The rest made less and less sense.

"Sadly", if you are caught to be on first levels you are likely to have problems with justice. How is it same? Pathetic lies promised to all levels, only top ones get anything because of mathematical logic.

Life is deception. You will have to choose a set of lies to believe if you are to function within this society. Please, do present us with a 'better' set of lies, and with your arguments to the 'evil' of this idea.

Differences though: on pyramids you can't go on higher rank, as it's based on who started first the scam etc...BUT the extortion is nowhere near scientology, giving few euros compared to thousands if not tens of thousands euros/dollars for scientology. So in the end, those pyramids who are pointed at, are nowhere near bad as scientology is! Because scientology also brainwashes you crap unlike pyramids.

Of course. People who are looking for an easy way out should not join Scientology to begin with. It is a long, and arduous path to self-knowing. Support along that way does have its price, yes. What? You would rather get enlightened for free? That's cheap.

So in the end, if you are not on high levels, you are an idiot.

I thought you just said that you only get on high levels being rich. How does being rich make you an idiot? Rich people are extravagant, eccentric and original.. not 'stupid', 'weird' or 'insane'.

I laugh at people who got themselves into that!
Bunch of fools

Yay for the playground! Where are the fools, idiots, stupids, a-holes, jerks and other eloquent verbalisations of uncontrolled rage when you need them?!

Now, next time you want to talk crap, actually try and have something to say. Fools.

Why are you defending those fools and say those who are against them are the fools?
Nonsense..[/quote]

Tom Cruises recent behavior should be enough to put anyone off this horrible creation. Did you know he believes he can fly and fire bolts of lighting from his eyes??? What a wacko!!!

rofl.. Ah yes, I forgot. Tom Cruise IS Scientology.
Puh-leeze.. get a real argument before grasping at straws.

Tom Cruises recent behavior should be enough to put anyone off this horrible creation. Did you know he believes he can fly and fire bolts of lighting from his eyes??? What a wacko!!!

Not surprising, and people wonder why they loath psychologists that much!
When Tom Cruise will be The Source that will be known

Because having powers and not being believed and not having them and pretending to have them are two different things!

Again. Tom Cruise IS Scientology! How could I forget!
Geez.. The logic. The Classical Greeks would turn in their graves.

[S0lid Snake]

Hahaha, some good banter here.

Sorry for the long post with random points, trying to remember as much as I can, I researched it in depth for a special project I was doing a few years back.

LRH had a boat docked in England, it was crewed with young boys I believe...

I saw an interview with his son and he split the rot beans on old L Ron. He practiced brutal back street abortions for cold cash. He kept a suit case full of money under the bed at all times, as he was constantly on the run from the law before he became rich.

His wife was caught stealing files from the FBI, I believe this was one of their biggest leaks.

Would you trust a man man with this kind of track record? Read some of his failed Sci-fi works, yes he was a writer and you guessed it, alot of his fantasy's translated into his religion 'Scientology'.

I've heard that his worshipers keep his writings on titanium tablets in some doomsday bunker somewhere. They have also been seen to be hording weapons for who knows what purpose.

They also bribe police regularly, some have been bought off completely, Clearwater, Florida has been bought out lock, stock & barrel by the cult. Their creating their own paradise there. They where seen bribing UK police forces during an anonymous protest.

They have members dress up in uniforms to patrol the streets in Clearwater, they taken photographs of protesters and launch smear campaigns against them, Individually and in groups, Anonymous had this problem. The videos of the individuals being intimidated are quite disturbing to watch. Once they get your name, they will harsh, follow and terrorise you until you back off. Their rule is always attack, never defend.

Oh, and lets not forget L Ron's biggest blunder, using DC-10s as his base for Alien spacecrafts, I'll bet they seemed futuristic when he wrote all his crap, by today's standards they look like Larders (Crappy European car).

My final thought on Scientology is that its very dangerous, it breaks up families, it causes unnecessary suffering both Mental & physical, It creates massive debts for it's members.

I think any religion that requires cash so that you can keep the faith is pure corporatism.

Evil, avoid at all costs, warn your family not to get sucked in, it can be heart-breaking trying to get someone you love out of this cult.

[Cole]

Okay, are you a Scientologist?

What of it, if I am?

Because of excessive bias perhaps?
Lol it's like asking an islamist to criticize its own religion (I say islamist because they are fundamentalist, same as if I said inquisitors )

I've done my research on this topic (over 2 years ago now), It's a fraud, well and truly.

Really? Despite your 'extensive research' of (wow..) 2 whole years.. you fail to give any substantial argument as to why you feel this way.
If it is a fraud to you, what does this mean to anyone else? It is not as if your approval (or lack thereof) discredits the system in any way. Do not get me wrong, I accept that you feel Scientology is a fraud. I just do not see why this is relevant to anyone other than yourself.

He means it's nothing better than any other scamming, so no need to put it on high esteem.

They are fools
Why do you think they loath that much psychologists?
Because any bit of sense given would destroy their foolish laughable theories.

Please try to make sense, thank you.

lmao I made sense, they *do* flame all they can psychologists, and if you take a look at their beliefs and how you enter there...it's understandable why they dislike psychologists that much!

And just take a look at how you become a high level member, just give more money, afterall, Tom Cruise isn't much of anything different than others else that being rich and famous. So indeed, being all equal with extortion.
And to people who say it's not extortion, at this very moment there's a judgement in my country against scientology for...extortion

Ah yes, of course.. sorry, I got that wrong. We are all extortionists! It has been proven! Not.
Jim, if I would accuse you of being an extortionist and present some faint shimmer of evidence, there would be a court case attempting to find out whether or not you are an extortionist.
The fact that there is a court case against someone/some organisation does not give logical credence to the conclusion that that specific someone/some organisation is indeed guilty. Guilty until proven innocent is still the primary stronghold of Roman Law. Hail Caesar, Scientology has not ever been convicted without a shadow of a doubt.

Your exemple is wrong, one accusation coming from nowhere vs many accusations from different people and investigations proving that are two different things.

It's just another SECT, that's all!

If you feel that way, please specify of what religion this is supposedly a sect?

It's like those sects that aren't based on a yet existing religion, that exist for exemple in south america, india and japan (those with gurus who asked for mass suicide in their ranks, not very much linked with other religions) It's like a Jehovia witnesses sci-fi version.

Only fools follow that, or weak minded ones

Instead of going playground on us, could you please give some arguments as to why you feel that way?

You give 4300$ or so maximum for US campaign if you support a candidate. By your FREE will. Nothing else is required from you excepted ofc that you are from USA and over 18 etc.. There, you give all of what you have, and accept to join a totally new world. Yo are tied with them. You have to follow all their things.

"Sadly", if you are caught to be on first levels you are likely to have problems with justice. How is it same? Pathetic lies promised to all levels, only top ones get anything because of mathematical logic.

Life is deception. You will have to choose a set of lies to believe if you are to function within this society. Please, do present us with a 'better' set of lies, and with your arguments to the 'evil' of this idea.

"You'll have to choose a set of lies"...talk for yourself! NWO and aliens are tocking at my door right?
Just follow a religion that isn't requiring all your life and goods/money to serve it. You see what I mean.

Differences though: on pyramids you can't go on higher rank, as it's based on who started first the scam etc...BUT the extortion is nowhere near scientology, giving few euros compared to thousands if not tens of thousands euros/dollars for scientology. So in the end, those pyramids who are pointed at, are nowhere near bad as scientology is! Because scientology also brainwashes you crap unlike pyramids.

Of course. People who are looking for an easy way out should not join Scientology to begin with. It is a long, and arduous path to self-knowing. Support along that way does have its price, yes. What? You would rather get enlightened for free? That's cheap.

I have no idea what your point was there...oh yes right give all what you have and get nothing in return is better than getting there "for free"...oh wow some funny logic we have there!!! What you said sounded funny though: it looks like a direct attack on all main religions' "recruiting". See also my last sentance in my post...

So in the end, if you are not on high levels, you are an idiot.

I thought you just said that you only get on high levels being rich. How does being rich make you an idiot? Rich people are extravagant, eccentric and original.. not 'stupid', 'weird' or 'insane'.

What the hell are you talking about? If you are NOT on high levels (NOT rich then) you are an idiot, because you are feeding them, and get nothing back.

I laugh at people who got themselves into that!
Bunch of fools

Yay for the playground! Where are the fools, idiots, stupids, a-holes, jerks and other eloquent verbalisations of uncontrolled rage when you need them?!

To be naive that much to believe that set of lies and give that much and change your life style fully, excuse me, that's NOT being smart!

Now, next time you want to talk crap, actually try and have something to say. Fools.

Why are you defending those fools and say those who are against them are the fools?
Nonsense..

why no reply??
Why do you defend scientology, and what do you have to gain from defending it? (usually, either you support because you gain from it, or because you believe in it, trust it etc...)

Tom Cruises recent behavior should be enough to put anyone off this horrible creation. Did you know he believes he can fly and fire bolts of lighting from his eyes??? What a wacko!!!

Not surprising, and people wonder why they loath psychologists that much!
When Tom Cruise will be The Source that will be known

Because having powers and not being believed and not having them and pretending to have them are two different things!

Again. Tom Cruise IS Scientology! How could I forget!
Geez.. The logic. The Classical Greeks would turn in their graves.

Yes and he has no power at all lmao, only fools believe this stuff as I said
[/quote]
Replied in red


Very good post S0lid snake!
That is slapping away all the crap that can be said pro scientology!

Fyi in christianism and other religions, money giving is not by FORCE but by yourself, when not forced to give, more likely you'll give some if you believe in it: freedom of membership. So by your own words, those religions are wrong, since they don't ask for all of what you have when you join them, riiight?

[Demeisen]

Lois Lane was there even one piece of information in your post? it was like reading propaganda written by someone blind to their delusion. i respect your right to believe as you wish. but i do draw the line at accepting religions that behave like a disturbing cult.

i created this debate not because i wanted to gain anything or even to debate. its purpose was to raise awareness. i have only recently learned about scientology and what i found troubled me. i wished to pass on the knowledge. appears there was already much knowledge here


a few things to know. . .and put simply:

*parents had to hire mercs to rescue their daughter from scientologists.
*the church of scintology carried out the biggest infiltration of some US government departments in history.
*scientology does ruin lives. man born into a scientologist family. he had mental health problems. scientology prevented him from seeking help. he murdered his mother, inflicting many stab wounds.


anyone who looks into scientology cant fail to feel uneasy. their actions are what cause me to oppose this religion (/cult). im not against their actual beliefs, only their conduct.

please check out some of the links i posted on the 1st page. they give some insight into scientology but theres way more out there.

solid post btw solid

[Cole]

As far as I know she's not part of that religion (excuse me, cult) at all...so that led me to ask why the hell she's saying all of it, and why...

[Demeisen]

a scientology wannabee? meh