Papers Please?

[Demeisen]

i'll just use this famous quote...

dont eat yellow snow

2ndly, i have a wife and kids and if it was up to me, rapists and pedophiles would not live long enough to see an ID card or a tag, i REALLY shouldn't have to say that, should i ?!

didnt doubt your opinion on that subject. jus thought you werent considering it as much as is necessary. the safety of the vulnerable is of greater importance than the liberty of scum.

im strongly against capital punishment for any crime. although if guilt can be proven beyond any doubt at all (as in its actually 110% certain the person did it) id be in favor of executing violent rapists and pedophiles. my concern would be an innocent person being killed for a crime they didnt commit. you cant take that back. a prisoner can be released if wrongly convicted

are you in favour of the ID card for the general public as something you believe in, or as something the govt has told you is needed for what ever reason that maybe?

.

hmmmm. . . well im not madly in favor of the cards but i think they would have uses. for example giving one to every violent criminal and foreign national in the uk would increase efficiency and make it easier for us to deal with them. thats definitely good thing.

i didnt really need the government to tell me whether the cards are needed. it seems a natural progression (and not because ive been conditioned etc lol). think of driving licenses. they moved from paper to proper cards and this makes it harder to fake them. this helps the police on a huge scale over time. think of all the man-hours saved by them being able to know who someone is if they have their license. biometric data cards is even harder to forge. i think this is good.

as far as i know the standard cards being brought out will not be able to track peoples movements. oyster cards will be better at tracking where people go than the new id cards. so their monitering ability isnt exactly astonishing.

i think one of the biggest problems the cards face is being secure. protecting the data is paramount.


i dont mind the general population being given cards on the condition they are not required to carry them at all times. that would be a step too far. most people would carry them anyway with their other ID. they could prove beyond doubt who they are when they need to. this would help them.

personally i think more money could be spent on iris, fingerprint, dna scanning, facial recognition techniques. they would not need a card. but this should be controlled to avoid the demolition man scenario. the killer takes the doctors eye on a pen to fool the scanner and open the door.

all i say is that if the government tries to force law abiding citizens to carry these cards there will be huge public anger. i for one would not tolerate it. a government would not do that as it would be suicide for them.

i tend to view the government as a clumsy child trying to work a new toy. she doesnt know exactly how to work it and she makes mistakes while learning but the intention is good. government isnt perfect. it has and will **Filtered** up from time to time, or often lol. but its inherently good and works for the people. parliament is made of people after all (except david cameron who is a robot, sent from the future to be smug).


btw this is that research i mentioned earlier:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7649970.stm

and a little quiz for ya:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/6161425.stm

i got:
'26-50

Your responses indicate that you have a medium level of belief in conspiracy theories. You may well be quite trusting of your close friends, partners, those you work with and others but sometimes cannot be sure of all of them all of the time. You may also feel that your voice in terms of wider political decisions is rarely heard or acted upon, perhaps because government and big business is more concerned with their own interests than with those of the average person.' you will either crash the bbc website or 20mins after you finish the secret police will kick your door down.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i have no problem giving credit where credit is due and you make some very fine comments and points there.

i hope to see you stay true to your word when the Govt does try and ram this card down the peoples throat, there may well be another "terrorist" attack which will be used as an excuse for us to accept it, we'll just have to wait and see on that one but i personally cant see it going threw unless its on the back of another made up "crises".



26-50

Your responses indicate that you have a medium level of belief in conspiracy theories. You may well be quite trusting of your close friends, partners, those you work with and others but sometimes cannot be sure of all of them all of the time. You may also feel that your voice in terms of wider political decisions is rarely heard or acted upon, perhaps because government and big business is more concerned with their own interests than with those of the average person.

completely disagree with that analysis of how see my friends and family. if i don't trust someone i don't speak to them and go out of my way to avoid them completely.
for example, mr liquid once offered to meet me and go for a drink, if i didn't trust his intentions to be honorable i would never have taken the offer up in the first place.

as for "medium level in the belief in conspiracy theories" thats also wrong, i have a high level in that belief (as some may have already guessed).

[Demeisen]

lol we got the same score? are you my evil twin?

yeh id definitely rebel if we are made to carry cards. if there is another terrorist attack after the cards are introduced new measures could be put in place. these could include having to carry cards in sensitive areas (the city, airports, national infrastructure etc). i think it highly unlikely that everyone in the country will have to carry a card at all times.


just a thought:
if there is another mass casualty terrorist attack (which sadly i believe will happen ) i think it will have more of an effect on the Islamic world. btw the attack would be carried out by islamic extremists in my view, not our government. that's a fundamental difference of opinion between us and is not relevant in this debate. agree to disagree etc.

another big islamic terrorist attack on the uk would have a devastating on muslims. hatred and racism would increase. attacks on muslims would increase. control measures on muslims would increase. a terrorist attack on the uk would be an attack on all muslim residents also. and if nuclear, chemical, biological weapons are used against the uk we would respond with our own nuclear attacks on those responsible. its national policy to use nukes if WMDs are sent against us.

completely disagree with that analysis of how see my friends and family. if i don't trust someone i don't speak to them and go out of my way to avoid them completely.
for example, mr liquid once offered to meet me and go for a drink, if i didn't trust his intentions to be honorable i would never have taken the offer up in the first place.

maybe not? depends on what is meant by trust. if you give one of your kids a cream pie and say dont throw it at that clown would you trust them not to if you turned away? id throw the pie no doubt about it . trust is seen differently by different people. id trust my close friends to back me up in a serious situation 100% but i wouldnt trust them 100% if i asked them not to use up the last of the fireworks for example. there are levels of trust. the test cant tell you how you trust mate so take it as a bit of fun

basically i think we all need to watch what happens with these cards to ensure they are used properly. if things get silly ill get my vendetta mask out

[Kit-Fox]

Just to point out the following :

- Driving Licences & Passports are entitlement documents and not proof of identity even if accepted as such by authorities

- Biometric data is quite easy to obtain and indeed forge as each time you use your ID card you wont be getting a blood test at the same time, at most a fingerrint scan and even that is problematic

- You do realise dont you that if all 60 odd million people of the UK are placed upon a database for the police to conduct fishing trips on then the number of 'false positives' will rise exponetially and of course well 'if you've nothing to hide' & 'the computer says so'

The scheme planned is nothing short of diabolical and while I know godwin is turning in his grave as i type this, its even more than the gestapo & stasi ever dreamed of trying to get away with. Dont forget that on your record will be a nice lil audit trail of everytime your ID will have been used so they will know everytime you went to the doctors (and as your nhs number will be the linking tag for that data they will be able to find out what for too) they will know each time you enter a 'government' building which by the way actually supposedly belong to the public anyways. Hitting below the belt they will know each time you buy ciggarettes, alcohol and no doubt use that data to decide whether or not to deny you nhs treatment or not even if you have gone for something totally unrelated (like say to have stiches for a cut you got while at work) they will also know each time you buy anything of a more adult nature, and well do they really need to know whats going on in your bedroom??

And please no trot out the very old and very tired 'but if it saves 1' or any of the other excuses, because it wont. It wont make us immune to terrorists or immigration (legal/illegal or otherwise) it wont stop peadophiles from preying on kids and as you wont have to carry it aroudn with you it wont help the police one iota when it comes to comfirming your identity.

[Juliette]

So we're back at the original conclusion:
Chip > Card.

[Kit-Fox]

Even a chip wont prevent terrorism, immigration or peadophiles. Add to that the revolts you will have from people who wont have such a chip forcibly implanted in them and from those who after discovering the pitfalls will preform their own 'backstreet surgery' to remove it.

No all forms of ID systems are fundamentally flawed and should be left to rot as the hang overs from the past that they are, we no longer require such systems on a national/governmental level. If people want a voluntary system where only the ones interested in having a record do so then by all means fine, but not for me and certainly not in my name

[Oculus Sinister]

No ID registration, we have evolved way beyond that.
There are no murderers, no rapists, there is no violent crime anymore.

Who made you believe that nonsense? We live in Utopia.
Our Utopian thought-police prevents crimes before they are committed, and so what if sometimes people disappear. They do not matter; we are Utopia.



But to go back to the real world here:
All forms of government are flawed too. Do you want to leave them out to rot?
Lois has a point, albeit a weak one. Kit-Fox complains about the ineffectiveness of crime prevention? Drill children for a full month right after their second birthday to convince them of the evil and vile nature of crime, yes, of disobedience in general (crime is nothing more as disobedience after all). Then see how much crime remains. As the age gap widens, one starts to eliminate risk groups which tend to lose the innocence of their youth.

Once a stable system is set up, the lower class free thinkers are eradicated, thus creating a proper measure of control.

Keep in mind that in all this, we speak only of the lower and middle class. Upper class does not require moderation, as they are deemed capable enough. That fact notwithstanding they are subjected to the anti-disobedience training of their childhood. Their risk-groups however are not tempered by the steel blade of pre-emptive justice, but are left alive in order to provide a necessary amount of balance and the illusion of choice to the lower and middle class. Naturally, such classes are without choice, since their genetic structure is flawed and their minds thus subject to criminal intent.


Eugenics are the single most effective solution remaining.
Eugenics and advances in AI technology.

I forgot. Science is flawed too. Let's hang science out to rot too, right alongside governments, identification plans, security and the very human race. We are all flawed. We all need to burn.


("We" being the voice of the lower classes here as opposed to the upper class which no one here can aspire to be part of. You are not, no matter what you tell yourself, relevant to the continuation of the human race. As a result, your services are no longer needed. Please terminate.)

[Juliette]

Can this be true!?
Yay! I find a likeminded entity!


^_^
Then there were two.

Anyway: Kit-Fox: Your argument is flawed.
It is not the objective to prevent crime, that would only be achieved by complete thought control, which is practically impossible to maintain (unless it already is maintained at which point the entire discussion is pointless).
When has there ever been anyone looking to prevent crime by having IDs?

Not that it matters. With people like you around, the system will fail, yes. For the good of society, think along higher lines for once, instead about just you, yourself and that which you claim as your own (way too much, imo).

Ah well.. I am glad that in the Lands of the Blind, One-Eye is King. That thought gives me hope for the future.

[Demeisen]

- Driving Licences & Passports are entitlement documents and not proof of identity even if accepted as such by authorities

so they are not ID yet they are accepted as ID therefore they are ID

- Biometric data is quite easy to obtain and indeed forge as each time you use your ID card you wont be getting a blood test at the same time, at most a fingerrint scan and even that is problematic

but for important things its quite easy to compare the bio-data to the person presenting the card. eg if an authorized childminder/family friend turns up at a school to collect a child they can prove who they are with a facial recognition/fingerprint scan. thats jus 1 example of many where they cards would be good.

- You do realise dont you that if all 60 odd million people of the UK are placed upon a database for the police to conduct fishing trips on then the number of 'false positives' will rise exponetially and of course well 'if you've nothing to hide' & 'the computer says so'

people arent convicted on the advice of a computer alone mate. some innocent people will probably have trouble but the guilty will have way more.

they will know each time you enter a 'government' building

im curious. how?

Hitting below the belt they will know each time you buy ciggarettes, alcohol and no doubt use that data to decide whether or not to deny you nhs treatment or not even if you have gone for something totally unrelated (like say to have stiches for a cut you got while at work)

how? you buy a cigar with your ID? im over 18 i dont show ID so how would that affect me? and the chance of being denied treatment when injured is laughable. . .ho ho ho

they will also know each time you buy anything of a more adult nature, and well do they really need to know whats going on in your bedroom??

so i go to my local porn/whatever shop and wave my ID around?

It wont make us immune to terrorists or immigration (legal/illegal or otherwise)

it will be a tool to fight terrorism. and it would cut illegal immigration. if you are a foreign national and must produce a card for benefits, healthcare and so on it will deter those who come to the uk illegally.

it wont stop peadophiles from preying on kids and as you wont have to carry it aroudn with you it wont help the police one iota when it comes to comfirming your identity.

what if:
say a man is seen loitering near a school. he is stopped by police. he has no card. he is suspicious and is arrested. he is found to be on the sex offenders register and under orders to carry his card and avoid schools. he broke that order and is put in prison where he cant harm anyone. if he did have his card he would be put in prison. if he had no card nor ever did the police stop him, he gives false name or whatever, he is sent on his way and remains at liberty.

what if:
to gain entry to a school all teachers/adults must scan their card while undergoing automatic facial recognition. a peadophile wouldnt get easy access.

there are way more (lol superior) examples out there.


and it would help the police identify you. if they can scan your prints and see a picture of you with your name they will know who you are. if you have a card, they can see who you are easily. i think the cards will help the innocent as much as they will damage the guilty.


you make some good points but it seems you are seeing things at their worst and overreacting. these are cards, not ID anchors which you drag behind you, not mind control devices, not tracking tags, not many things people think they are.

its right to ask questions and its right to watch the scheme with an eagle eye. with people watching things will be better.

[Kit-Fox]

Did you see me say we had evolved beyond crime or bad thoughts?? Cause correct if i'm wrong I dont see that in my last post. I see myself clearly attacking the idea that only by numbering and documenting an entire population and its actions from bith to death can we be safe. This is a flawed idea and one that lies at the very heart of most ID systems including the UK one, hence it should be left to rot forgotten about. No amount of scienctific process will improve it nor will advances in technology. If fact if you look at those who are against such a scheme you'll find its the very people (ie the researchers/academics etc) who made the technology in the first place that has made the UK scheme possible.

Sorry Lois but unless you can come up with a way of preventing the thousands of false positives and consequently ruined lives by the accusation (lets not forget CRB checks and how accurate they are ) no system should be implemented not to mention that by creating such a 'gold standard' all any government does is make the system more of a target for the criminal fraternity and of course once they have worked out how to copy/fake card and or records depending on whether they go for blackmailling the NIR databases mandarins or not then your identity is no longer you own. In fact as soon as you have to justify your existance to a gov your identity isnt your own. The brits have never had a governemnt with such power and quite right too.

Oh and btw you really should read up on the UK scheme as one of its aims/benefits is the prevention of crime. best know what your going on about first eh?

[Oculus Sinister]

At that no made sense all.

I read you, but I do not see what you say. There does not seem to be a point to it.

[Kit-Fox]

- Driving Licences & Passports are entitlement documents and not proof of identity even if accepted as such by authorities

so they are not ID yet they are accepted as ID therefore they are ID

And it still wouldnt stand up in court should it be challenged by anyone that such documents are ID. They are not in the eyes of the law, it is only for convienence that they are accepted as such.

- Biometric data is quite easy to obtain and indeed forge as each time you use your ID card you wont be getting a blood test at the same time, at most a fingerrint scan and even that is problematic

but for important things its quite easy to compare the bio-data to the person presenting the card. eg if an authorized childminder/family friend turns up at a school to collect a child they can prove who they are with a facial recognition/fingerprint scan. thats jus 1 example of many where they cards would be good.

Facial Regconition scans do not work as much as hollywood & govs would have you believe, in fact facial scan systems have a fail rate of something like 7 out of 10. As for fingerprints, how exactly would you get fingerprints from people who have worked behind a bar all their life? or worked in construction or chemical industries?? All three have serious effects on your fingerprints making them impossible to use on such systems as there simply isnt enough left to make a reliable match & there are other industries that have the same effect, those three were just the first i can think of off the top of my head

- You do realise dont you that if all 60 odd million people of the UK are placed upon a database for the police to conduct fishing trips on then the number of 'false positives' will rise exponetially and of course well 'if you've nothing to hide' & 'the computer says so'

people arent convicted on the advice of a computer alone mate. some innocent people will probably have trouble but the guilty will have way more.

No they wont be convicted by the say so of the computer alone (at least not yet... watch this space) but it will means they will be arrested on suspision & held for quesitoning and have to face the social stigma that attaches to been arrested for say rape/murder/peadophilia even if they are totally innocent they might even lose their job as a result (it has happened before, hell even a Peadotrician got linched once cause people didnt know the difference between the words!)

they will know each time you enter a 'government' building

im curious. how?

The plan is to require the card to interact with all government services, no card no service. theefore it is logical to assume they will run a check on the card that will be recorded and the nost logical place to do this is at the entry to the building

Hitting below the belt they will know each time you buy ciggarettes, alcohol and no doubt use that data to decide whether or not to deny you nhs treatment or not even if you have gone for something totally unrelated (like say to have stiches for a cut you got while at work)

how? you buy a cigar with your ID? im over 18 i dont show ID so how would that affect me? and the chance of being denied treatment when injured is laughable. . .ho ho ho

You will be required to show ID to purchase such products, already in the UK if you look under 25 you need to show some form of age verification even though the legal age is only 18. You will see that the government will require retailers to use your state issued ID card to verify your age. Already some labour councils have made bylaws outlawing the use of other commercially available proof of age cards.

You wont be given any treatment under the proposed system unless you require life saving treatment, getting stiches to a cut does not come under the defienition of 'life saving' as all it does it reduce the chance of major scarring.

they will also know each time you buy anything of a more adult nature, and well do they really need to know whats going on in your bedroom??

so i go to my local porn/whatever shop and wave my ID around?

As above regarding the ID card for age checks

It wont make us immune to terrorists or immigration (legal/illegal or otherwise)

it will be a tool to fight terrorism. and it would cut illegal immigration. if you are a foreign national and must produce a card for benefits, healthcare and so on it will deter those who come to the uk illegally.

Sorry but it wont stop immigration of any kind, people will still slip in under the radar and there are always those greedy enough to help them once they are here gain access to things they shouldnt have. As for terrorism, do you really think a bomber cares if you ID him? you knwo the train bombs in spain? they all had ID and the spanish authorities knew about them, didnt stop them though did it.

it wont stop peadophiles from preying on kids and as you wont have to carry it aroudn with you it wont help the police one iota when it comes to comfirming your identity.

what if:
say a man is seen loitering near a school. he is stopped by police. he has no card. he is suspicious and is arrested. he is found to be on the sex offenders register and under orders to carry his card and avoid schools. he broke that order and is put in prison where he cant harm anyone. if he did have his card he would be put in prison. if he had no card nor ever did the police stop him, he gives false name or whatever, he is sent on his way and remains at liberty.

Without more primary law making it would be illegal for the gov to require anyone to carry the card with them atm ( but you can bet that will change ) and you do know that 90% of all peadophile cases are by someone in the family not a random stranger dont you?

what if:
to gain entry to a school all teachers/adults must scan their card while undergoing automatic facial recognition. a peadophile wouldnt get easy access.

there are way more (lol superior) examples out there.

peadophiles rarely try to gain acces to a school's property (whoops fell at the first hurdle there didnt you ) And as already mentioned facial recogntion currently sucks and fails so many times it would lock out the teachers and parents who had a right to be there as well as any undesirables


and it would help the police identify you. if they can scan your prints and see a picture of you with your name they will know who you are. if you have a card, they can see who you are easily. i think the cards will help the innocent as much as they will damage the guilty.

mobile devices to do this are not currently reliable to any great degree at least certainly not to deploy across the entire UK, there would be total chaos if that happened within the next 5 years or so till we can ensure that such mobile devices arent affected by operating conditions, which currently it has been shown they are.


you make some good points but it seems you are seeing things at their worst and overreacting. these are cards, not ID anchors which you drag behind you, not mind control devices, not tracking tags, not many things people think they are.

its right to ask questions and its right to watch the scheme with an eagle eye. with people watching things will be better.

well replied in red till i got bored. meh i dont do long posts usually and besides i'm tired. maybe i'll post more tomorrow

[Cole]

No ID registration, we have evolved way beyond that.
There are no murderers, no rapists, there is no violent crime anymore.

Who made you believe that nonsense? We live in Utopia.
Our Utopian thought-police prevents crimes before they are committed, and so what if sometimes people disappear. They do not matter; we are Utopia.



But to go back to the real world here:
All forms of government are flawed too. Do you want to leave them out to rot?
Lois has a point, albeit a weak one. Kit-Fox complains about the ineffectiveness of crime prevention? Drill children for a full month right after their second birthday to convince them of the evil and vile nature of crime, yes, of disobedience in general (crime is nothing more as disobedience after all). Then see how much crime remains. As the age gap widens, one starts to eliminate risk groups which tend to lose the innocence of their youth.

Once a stable system is set up, the lower class free thinkers are eradicated, thus creating a proper measure of control.

Keep in mind that in all this, we speak only of the lower and middle class. Upper class does not require moderation, as they are deemed capable enough. That fact notwithstanding they are subjected to the anti-disobedience training of their childhood. Their risk-groups however are not tempered by the steel blade of pre-emptive justice, but are left alive in order to provide a necessary amount of balance and the illusion of choice to the lower and middle class. Naturally, such classes are without choice, since their genetic structure is flawed and their minds thus subject to criminal intent.


Eugenics are the single most effective solution remaining.
Eugenics and advances in AI technology.

I forgot. Science is flawed too. Let's hang science out to rot too, right alongside governments, identification plans, security and the very human race. We are all flawed. We all need to burn.


("We" being the voice of the lower classes here as opposed to the upper class which no one here can aspire to be part of. You are not, no matter what you tell yourself, relevant to the continuation of the human race. As a result, your services are no longer needed. Please terminate.)

Oh one funny post there. And ohh so wrong!

You are VERY naive if you think it's only low and middle class that can't "handle" their children. Just thought I'd point it out.
As far as I know cocain consumers are MOSTLY upper class, and few upper middle class. And if you think it's only lower class that causes crimes, you are mistaken. But, oh well, not your fault if yourself are living in utopia.

Advances in AI technology? That's the worst idea ever thought. If you believe an high advanced AI would wish to keep listening to humans, you once again in a living world.

Oh and for last paragraphes alone, I don't think I'll take care seriously of what bs you said dude.

There was theory paranoids, now we have superior/inferior races/classes fools. The scheme is -finally- completed!

Liquid has some good ideas, but you, oh mr I'm so arrogant and recognize there are different races, the superiors and the inferiors, don't ever think i'll take care of what you said seriously as I would for others!

Everyone who thinks rich people are all nice and intelligent, and poor and middle class are all retarded and dangerous, are themselves pure idiots!
I didn't think we could have such level of idiocy there.
I'm listening to what's coming next.
I'll laugh probably. Nah. Surely!




Whoever agrees with that crap is a fool. Doubled to an idiot! And I'll consider you like an idiot, whoever you are, if you believe and agree with what mr red eye said. If I had respect for you, and you are along with all what he said and believe and agree with it, then consider I lost all respect I had for you, whoever you are. Not much, I know, my respect is in the order of things, but be sure of that it's lost.
A debate is a debate, but when it comes to dark levels of ignorance, extremism and foolishness, it's different.

I have respect for people who deserve it. Those who believe that, obviously, don't.

Have a nice day.

[Oculus Sinister]

Seems like you just cut short your friendship with Lois Lane then. She agrees, after all. Thought you two were quite close.


Fyi, the opinion of one person from somewhere on the world doesn't really bother me either, so we're even. Perhaps it would have made a difference if the reader would be able to understand what you said, but that's mere hypothesis.

[Demeisen]

LiQuiD wrote:
Kit-Fox wrote:
- Driving Licences & Passports are entitlement documents and not proof of identity even if accepted as such by authorities

so they are not ID yet they are accepted as ID therefore they are ID

And it still wouldnt stand up in court should it be challenged by anyone that such documents are ID. They are not in the eyes of the law, it is only for convienence that they are accepted as such.

so if they are accepted as ID they are in fact ID. if they werent accepted i would concede the point, but they are.

Kit-Fox wrote:
- Biometric data is quite easy to obtain and indeed forge as each time you use your ID card you wont be getting a blood test at the same time, at most a fingerrint scan and even that is problematic

but for important things its quite easy to compare the bio-data to the person presenting the card. eg if an authorized childminder/family friend turns up at a school to collect a child they can prove who they are with a facial recognition/fingerprint scan. thats jus 1 example of many where they cards would be good.

Facial Regconition scans do not work as much as hollywood & govs would have you believe, in fact facial scan systems have a fail rate of something like 7 out of 10. As for fingerprints, how exactly would you get fingerprints from people who have worked behind a bar all their life? or worked in construction or chemical industries?? All three have serious effects on your fingerprints making them impossible to use on such systems as there simply isnt enough left to make a reliable match & there are other industries that have the same effect, those three were just the first i can think of off the top of my head

''In 2006, the performance of the latest face recognition algorithms were evaluated in the Face Recognition Grand Challenge. High-resolution face images, 3-D face scans, and iris images were used in the tests. The results indicated that the new algorithms are 10 times more accurate than the face recognition algorithms of 2002 and 100 times more accurate than those of 1995. Some of the algorithms were able to outperform human participants in recognizing faces and could uniquely identify identical twins.''

perhaps you forgot that old people lack defined fingerprints quite often. quite an oversight. what else did you miss? bar work doesnt destroy fingerprints. and the chances of every finger being unable to give a print are stupidly low. for other occupations there may be problems. but fingerprints dont wash off with soap. they are durable. and another arrangement could be made for the tiny minority with poor quality prints.

Kit-Fox wrote:
- You do realise dont you that if all 60 odd million people of the UK are placed upon a database for the police to conduct fishing trips on then the number of 'false positives' will rise exponetially and of course well 'if you've nothing to hide' & 'the computer says so'

people arent convicted on the advice of a computer alone mate. some innocent people will probably have trouble but the guilty will have way more.

No they wont be convicted by the say so of the computer alone (at least not yet... watch this space) but it will means they will be arrested on suspision & held for quesitoning and have to face the social stigma that attaches to been arrested for say rape/murder/peadophilia even if they are totally innocent they might even lose their job as a result (it has happened before, hell even a Peadotrician got linched once cause people didnt know the difference between the words!)

you forget the cards/information could just as easily be used to prove someone innocent. you make it sound as they system will be more likely to fail than work. thats not the case. the killing of the Peadotrician hints at retards with rope.

Kit-Fox wrote:
they will know each time you enter a 'government' building
im curious. how?

The plan is to require the card to interact with all government services, no card no service. theefore it is logical to assume they will run a check on the card that will be recorded and the nost logical place to do this is at the entry to the building

sensitive buildings yes. parliament for example. my local library, town hall or information centre? no.

Kit-Fox wrote:
Hitting below the belt they will know each time you buy ciggarettes, alcohol and no doubt use that data to decide whether or not to deny you nhs treatment or not even if you have gone for something totally unrelated (like say to have stiches for a cut you got while at work)

how? you buy a cigar with your ID? im over 18 i dont show ID so how would that affect me? and the chance of being denied treatment when injured is laughable. . .ho ho ho

You will be required to show ID to purchase such products, already in the UK if you look under 25 you need to show some form of age verification even though the legal age is only 18. You will see that the government will require retailers to use your state issued ID card to verify your age. Already some labour councils have made bylaws outlawing the use of other commercially available proof of age cards.

i believe its called the challenge 25 policy. it is not law and it is not required. the policy is implemented by shops to avoid situations where an underage person can get alcohol etc. having it at that age also stops trouble from those who are over 18. they are less likely to argue when challenged as the minimum challenge age is above their own. i know as it has happened to my friends and i on rare occasions, mostly in large supermarkets. whats the problem with those who look like they are underage being asked to prove they are old enough? by commercially available do you mean the IDs such as are bought online? if so thats sensible as they are often fake.

You wont be given any treatment under the proposed system unless you require life saving treatment, getting stiches to a cut does not come under the defienition of 'life saving' as all it does it reduce the chance of major scarring.

it would also reduce many possible complications. treatment to a head injury would be given. to think someone may turn up at A&E with a head wound and be turned away is unrealistic.

Kit-Fox wrote:
they will also know each time you buy anything of a more adult nature, and well do they really need to know whats going on in your bedroom??

so i go to my local porn/whatever shop and wave my ID around?

As above regarding the ID card for age checks

how much business would my local porn shop (which is now a bakery lol) get if every customer had to produce ID and say who they are AND have their purchases on record. a fraction. it wouldnt happen mate.

Kit-Fox wrote:
It wont make us immune to terrorists or immigration (legal/illegal or otherwise)

it will be a tool to fight terrorism. and it would cut illegal immigration. if you are a foreign national and must produce a card for benefits, healthcare and so on it will deter those who come to the uk illegally.

Sorry but it wont stop immigration of any kind, people will still slip in under the radar and there are always those greedy enough to help them once they are here gain access to things they shouldnt have. As for terrorism, do you really think a bomber cares if you ID him? you knwo the train bombs in spain? they all had ID and the spanish authorities knew about them, didnt stop them though did it.

i believe it will cut illegal immigration. the point isnt stopping them coming in 'under the radar' as much as deterring them from coming at all. if they knew they would get nothing if they come here illegally a significant number would not travel to the uk. i dont know about the spanish bombers and their IDs. but the cards would help tackle terrorism. having biometric data on the terrorists would be a valuable tool.

Kit-Fox wrote:
it wont stop peadophiles from preying on kids and as you wont have to carry it aroudn with you it wont help the police one iota when it comes to comfirming your identity.


what if:
say a man is seen loitering near a school. he is stopped by police. he has no card. he is suspicious and is arrested. he is found to be on the sex offenders register and under orders to carry his card and avoid schools. he broke that order and is put in prison where he cant harm anyone. if he did have his card he would be put in prison. if he had no card nor ever did the police stop him, he gives false name or whatever, he is sent on his way and remains at liberty.

Without more primary law making it would be illegal for the gov to require anyone to carry the card with them atm ( but you can bet that will change ) and you do know that 90% of all peadophile cases are by someone in the family not a random stranger dont you?

i would hope it does change for violent/sex offenders. i was aware a high % of child abuse was done by those known to the victim. but i dont know what the % of child killers are family members of the victim. it seems more likely a stranger would violently murder than a relative but as i said i dont have the statistics.

what if:
to gain entry to a school all teachers/adults must scan their card while undergoing automatic facial recognition. a peadophile wouldnt get easy access.

there are way more (lol superior) examples out there.

peadophiles rarely try to gain acces to a school's property (whoops fell at the first hurdle there didnt you ) And as already mentioned facial recogntion currently sucks and fails so many times it would lock out the teachers and parents who had a right to be there as well as any undesirables

the experience of a naked man entering my primary school clearly has no bearing on your point (whoops you missed the target and shot an ice cream van by accident didnt ya )
facial recognition is at/will soon be at the stage where it is reliable. please look up the latest endeavors in the field.


and it would help the police identify you. if they can scan your prints and see a picture of you with your name they will know who you are. if you have a card, they can see who you are easily. i think the cards will help the innocent as much as they will damage the guilty.

mobile devices to do this are not currently reliable to any great degree at least certainly not to deploy across the entire UK, there would be total chaos if that happened within the next 5 years or so till we can ensure that such mobile devices arent affected by operating conditions, which currently it has been shown they are.

i believe portable fingerprint recognition devices are currently deployed around the uk with police forces. i actually saw such a device being used on TV a few months ago (and whoops you jus shot a clown aswel. put the gun down mate )


you make some good points but it seems you are seeing things at their worst and overreacting. these are cards, not ID anchors which you drag behind you, not mind control devices, not tracking tags, not many things people think they are.

its right to ask questions and its right to watch the scheme with an eagle eye. with people watching things will be better.



well replied in red till i got bored. meh i dont do long posts usually and besides i'm tired. maybe i'll post more tomorrow

replied in green because you already took red

the belief that an individuals 'class' predetermines whether they are a criminal is stupid. the rich in society may be less 'criminal' but this is precisely because they are rich. if the upper class were raised in lower class conditions they would be the more likely to commit crime and vice versa. and a poor family doesnt mean a criminal family. its down to individual situations which cause a person to break the law. higher rates of crime originating from poorer people is a failure of the government, not those invloved. sort out poverty and crime will be slashed. this is a hard thing to write about lucidly and in a straight forward manner (for me atleast) so it is not exactly crystal.